Reel Repair by Alan Tani

Conventional and Bait Casting Reel Rebuild Tutorials and Questions => Penn Senator Tutorials and Questions => Topic started by: Superhook on December 21, 2014, 07:32:41 AM

Title: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Superhook on December 21, 2014, 07:32:41 AM

1936 Penn markets their First Senator reel , a #115 ( 9/0) .

(http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m531/kingfisher57/Teds9-0.png) (http://s1130.photobucket.com/user/kingfisher57/media/Teds9-0.png.html)
The GOOD ............ Perfect 1936 first year 9/0 Senator and box .  8) ( Ted )


(http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m531/kingfisher57/84a3f310-fd80-4542-a6ae-53f8f71864e1.jpg) (http://s1130.photobucket.com/user/kingfisher57/media/84a3f310-fd80-4542-a6ae-53f8f71864e1.jpg.html)
The BAD ............a trio of 9/0's . left- right . 1938 with door knob handle 36/37 on top of box and 1939 with torpedo handle .  ;D (Mike)


(http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m531/kingfisher57/19369-0.jpg) (http://s1130.photobucket.com/user/kingfisher57/media/19369-0.jpg.html)
and the UGLY........... 1936 reel and box with tape and stains.  :'( ((Ray)


(http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m531/kingfisher57/1936_Penn_Brochure_Cover-1.jpg) (http://s1130.photobucket.com/user/kingfisher57/media/1936_Penn_Brochure_Cover-1.jpg.html)
the 1936 Catalog has the 9/0 Senator on the front.


(http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m531/kingfisher57/PennSenatorworks.jpg) (http://s1130.photobucket.com/user/kingfisher57/media/PennSenatorworks.jpg.html)
A photo of a Penn employee working on a large Penn Senator . 14/0 -16/0 handle on the bench top and the counterweighted door knob 9/0 -12/0 handle in holder on top of bench would date 1938-9.

Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Penn Chronology on December 21, 2014, 08:03:50 AM
OMG,,, is that a human being working on that reel???? This picture must be from the Middle Ages!!
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Superhook on December 21, 2014, 08:48:30 AM

(http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m531/kingfisher57/193712-03-1.jpg) (http://s1130.photobucket.com/user/kingfisher57/media/193712-03-1.jpg.html)

(http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m531/kingfisher57/193712-05-1.jpg) (http://s1130.photobucket.com/user/kingfisher57/media/193712-05-1.jpg.html)

(http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m531/kingfisher57/193712-02-1.jpg) (http://s1130.photobucket.com/user/kingfisher57/media/193712-02-1.jpg.html)

1937 12/0 with correct handle and one set of harness lugs . No rod to reel lugs. Hard to find reel and rare handle .

When looking for the old Senators take note of the position of the free spool lever and crank outlet relating to a vertical centre line compared to the later models. Early cranks are forward and free spool levers are backward of centre line.

Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Alto Mare on December 21, 2014, 09:49:14 AM
This one is one of my favorite picture of all.
I posted it here about two years and it made photo of the month...no surprise there. ;)

I wish it was me sitting there. ;D
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Superhook on December 21, 2014, 10:08:39 AM
Sal,

It would be very pleasant to have a set up like that and all new parts,  Just noticed the huge ball peen hammer in the foreground. That must be to put an end to any argument that might start over a reject part.????

Ray
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Superhook on December 21, 2014, 10:38:37 AM
(http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m531/kingfisher57/12-0Senator1939.jpg) (http://s1130.photobucket.com/user/kingfisher57/media/12-0Senator1939.jpg.html)
This 12/0 reel came in the Lighthouse Box . It has been used but very little. Probably been on the rod and at sea as it has only the slightest signs of saltwater use except for the rod bracket bolts. I took it apart for its first time and there was a pencil number still on the brass. It is a 1937 made reel with a 1939 torpedo handle. It only has one set of lugs for a harness and the gears for 1937 were brass , after that they were steel. Old Cuttyhunk linen line was very clean and is still on and the reel is as found.
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Superhook on December 21, 2014, 10:52:34 AM
Other than the first box for the 9/0 in 36-37 all Senators of the first generation were sold in the Lighthouse boxes. Here is the set 4,6,9,10,12,14 & 16/0. If the price varied in the future years Penn stuck a printed sticker over the original printed label on the box .  ( The 1,2 & 3/0 came later in the colourful fisherman labelled black boxes)

(http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m531/kingfisher57/SenatorLhouseboxes.jpg) (http://s1130.photobucket.com/user/kingfisher57/media/SenatorLhouseboxes.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Rothmar2 on December 21, 2014, 10:53:01 AM
Keep these historical posts coming. Fantastic to have you guys who know the Penn story inside out, sharing with us all. Have been looking at the ORCA site a lot lately as well, and marvel at the old reels. No CNC machining. All hand driven machines. I realise Penn were probably one of the first to get into mass production, but these are still a beautiful reminder of where our past-time has originated, and progressed from.
Fantastic reads!
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Superhook on December 21, 2014, 11:21:36 AM

Photos of a 1940 14/0 . The early 14/0's are one of the hardest to find. The 16/0 would be the only Senator harder to find.
(http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m531/kingfisher57/7c727f9b-1941-4303-9e89-3a9fa9c90b86.jpg) (http://s1130.photobucket.com/user/kingfisher57/media/7c727f9b-1941-4303-9e89-3a9fa9c90b86.jpg.html)

(http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m531/kingfisher57/14-019402.jpg) (http://s1130.photobucket.com/user/kingfisher57/media/14-019402.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Alto Mare on December 21, 2014, 02:48:01 PM
Quote from: Superhook on December 21, 2014, 10:08:39 AM
Sal,

It would be very pleasant to have a set up like that and all new parts,  Just noticed the huge ball peen hammer in the foreground. That must be to put an end to any argument that might start over a reject part.????

Ray
;D ;D...

I'm wondering if that setup with that large black coffee grind handle was used to install knobs on the handle :-\...it would make sense.
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Penn Chronology on December 21, 2014, 04:43:45 PM
QuoteI'm wondering if that setup with that large black coffee grind handle was used to install knobs on the handle Undecided...it would make sense

Yes, Sal, I mean I was not there, but I believe that is for squeezing the rivet tail onto the handle knob shaft. With the right size rivet die, you could do it repeatedly without harming the wood knob. That particular tool goes back to the 1930's even though the picture is taken in the 1950's.
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Maxed Out on December 21, 2014, 05:31:31 PM
   Ha ha ha, Gotta love a clint eastwood fan from down unda. Got a good laugh, and in my opinion, they are all things of beauty and loaded with historical significance.



Very cool stuff, thanks for sharing Ray. Sal has a pic of my wood handled mid 40's 9/0, other than that I'm just a spectator here. Sorry for drooling on your reels Ray, but when I see old senators like yours, my jaw drops and the drool starts flowing. I'm sure Michael has a few that are jaw droppers also.

Thanks again for sharing part of your collection Ray. The phrase "too much of a good thing" doesn't apply to penn reels, so keep them coming please.
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Penn Chronology on December 21, 2014, 09:13:39 PM
As far as Senators go, I am a Cave Man except for one 16/O presentation reel which I will post later in this thread. All my big Senators are pre-war, first generation reels. The fast easy way to tell the difference is looking straight on at the head plates.

(http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/m3040c/FirstandSecondGenerationPennSenator6-O.jpg)
                    The Senator 6/O on the left is a post 1948, second generation reel. The reel on the right was made previous to 1948. The dates I am quoting are according to changes made in the catalog illustrations, which may be slightly off. I feel the true separation between first and second generation Senators is WW II. The post war catalogs do not illustrate second gen Senators until 1949, but I feel the catalogs were slow to reflect what was available in the market place. It is that same old story, Penn never wasted anything back in those days, so all their products basically slowly evolved from one change to another, rather than just changing over in the exact year the catalogs says the changes exist (which makes it difficult when you are trying to specifically document a change).
                    For many years, the difference between first and second gen Senators has gone unnoticed. Collectors either ignored the difference or simply missed it. To me it was always a major difference but how much it affected the true scarcity of a particular model had to be proved, so six or seven years ago, myself and a few other collectors challenged ourselves to collect a complete set of First Generation Senators. To this day, only one of us (not Me or Ray) has completed the set from 4/O to 16/O.
                    Here is my set of First Gen Senators;
(http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/m3040c/1stGenerationSenators.jpg)
                    You will notice the 16/O is not there. My set of first gen Senators goes from 4/O to 14/O. What was really interesting was that no one had even seen one, except in the catalogs. We were beginning to think that no first gen 16/O existed until a find this year in Florida by a collector that lives in Oregon.
Here is the only First Generation build style 16/O that is known to have survived:
(http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/m3040c/Penn%20Senators/Penn_16-0_0051016x762_zps72695430.jpg)
(http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/m3040c/Penn%20Senators/penn_16-0_2_0021016x762_zps1e0ed9e4.jpg)
                    As for a used, 75 year old Big Game reel, it is not in bad shape... :o
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Superhook on December 21, 2014, 11:10:46 PM
(http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m531/kingfisher57/6-019392-1.jpg) (http://s1130.photobucket.com/user/kingfisher57/media/6-019392-1.jpg.html)


(http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m531/kingfisher57/10-019391-2.jpg) (http://s1130.photobucket.com/user/kingfisher57/media/10-019391-2.jpg.html)
1939 10/0 with semi-transparent Catlin torpedo knob. Torpedo handles were used from 1939.
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Superhook on December 21, 2014, 11:12:43 PM
(http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m531/kingfisher57/6-019391-1.jpg) (http://s1130.photobucket.com/user/kingfisher57/media/6-019391-1.jpg.html)
1939 first gen. first year 6/0


Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Superhook on December 21, 2014, 11:16:07 PM

(http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m531/kingfisher57/12-019392-1.jpg) (http://s1130.photobucket.com/user/kingfisher57/media/12-019392-1.jpg.html)

(http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m531/kingfisher57/12-019391-1.jpg) (http://s1130.photobucket.com/user/kingfisher57/media/12-019391-1.jpg.html)

12/0 with factory wooden log handle and stand has the wide bolt spacing for the big rod clamp circa 1939.

Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Superhook on December 21, 2014, 11:21:11 PM
(http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m531/kingfisher57/12-02ndgen-1.jpg) (http://s1130.photobucket.com/user/kingfisher57/media/12-02ndgen-1.jpg.html)

This is an early 2nd generation 12/0 . It has the early logo, the Rosewood torpedo handle knob , drilled 3 piece spool. The big difference to a first gen is the position of the handle & free spool lever.
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Maxed Out on December 21, 2014, 11:24:22 PM
Now that's a handle. Must be a really high quality wood to still look that good 75 years later.

I watched one with the log handle auction for very reasonable price one day and I didn't bid because I thought it was someones homemade franken-handle. Ignorance is bliss only if you stay ignorant, now I know better  :D
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Superhook on December 21, 2014, 11:31:55 PM
Hello Ted,

Yes the wooden log handle is a surprise . I have seen about half a dozen over the years. Definitely factory and only seen on 10/0 and 12/0's ....so far.

The Rosewood and semi-transparent catlin torpedo handles were fitted to some 250 yds. reels of 39/40 era too.


Ray
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Alto Mare on December 21, 2014, 11:58:11 PM
Mike and Ray, you guys are like a great New Year's Eve Firework Show, when you think it's over it'll start all over again with some extra bang  ;D

Love it!
Sal
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Superhook on December 22, 2014, 12:13:48 AM
Sal,

Mike's got a killer 4/0 that i hope he will post and then we can move along into the 40's and 50's Senators. Glad you enjoy the reels and it's a pleasure to share.

Ray
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Penn Chronology on December 22, 2014, 12:42:27 AM
OK Ray, Here is the 1938 Senator 113---4/O in its original Lighthouse box. These early Senators are built from German Silver rather than brass, but i think I mentioned that on another post.

(http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/m3040c/DSC08372539x404.jpg)
              Only the 1938 reel used this handle, in 1939 Penn changed to the Torpedo handle knob, so these handle styles are fairly rare and valuable. Combine that with the original box and we can have a pretty good auction............ :)

(http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/m3040c/DSC08378816x612408x306.jpg)
              The first 4/O logo is also different than what most Senator users are accustomed to seeing. This logo was used for a few years before it changed to a more modern style.

(http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/m3040c/DSC08382816x612408x306.jpg)
              The condition of the spool on this particular reel looks like it never had line on it but I can not prove that.

(http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/m3040c/DSC08376539x404.jpg)
              This is the first Senator 4/O picture plate and notice the waffle style clicker button is used on this reel. No other Senator will use this style clicker button.

(http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/m3040c/DSC08387816x612408x306.jpg)
              A true first year Senator 4/O will have no markings on the bottom of the stand.

OK Superhook, that should do it. Now you can move to the 1940's and 1950's  :)
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Alto Mare on December 22, 2014, 01:20:17 AM
Beautiful reel Mike and the front of that box is in great shape....very nice.
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Maxed Out on January 11, 2015, 03:03:56 AM
   That sure is a nice 4/0 Mike.....I'm sure you must have several more senators that we'd all enjoy seeing.
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Islandgypsy on January 11, 2015, 04:34:14 AM
So Michael, when is the "1958-Present" book coming out with all the trick mods?  Beautiful classic senators you have there.    GB
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Penn Chronology on January 12, 2015, 05:47:37 AM
QuoteSo Michael, when is the "1958-Present" book coming out with all the trick mods?  Beautiful classic senators you have there

I wish I knew. It is a long way off.
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Penn Chronology on January 12, 2015, 06:20:34 AM
QuoteThat sure is a nice 4/0 Mike.....I'm sure you must have several more senators that we'd all enjoy seeing.

                    I really wish I had more space because I would have more reels in my collection but unfortunately I have had to sell many. One of the ways I have been able to stay close to reels that I have sold is to try to sell my best ones to close friends. Here is one of those beauty's that I have to let go;
(http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/m3040c/Penn%20Senators/DSC08000816x612_zpsffae8894.jpg)
                    This is a New Old Stock 1949 Penn 114. What makes this particular reel very special is 1949 is the last year Penn used the Light House box and the first year of the new generation build style. So the 1949 model is a first and a last, which makes it a talking piece. Notice the original Penn Hang Tag is still with this reel;

(http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/m3040c/Penn%20Senators/DSC08002816x612_zps6e19b5d6.jpg)
                    Here is an example showing how Penn did a price change addition to the box label. Penn always reused old labels by simply add a sticker to the label with the new price.

I sold this reel about 7 years ago and have never come across another one this nice but I did make sure it went to a very good home............. ;)
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Alto Mare on February 01, 2015, 04:49:23 AM
Here is another interesting reel from Ted ( Max Doubt)

(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/IMG_20150131_140408176%20teds%20long%20handle.jpg) (http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/pescatore1/media/IMG_20150131_140408176%20teds%20long%20handle.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: broadway on February 01, 2015, 02:21:51 PM
That reel didn't look anything like that before Ted polished her up... now that's preservation and a one of a kind if I'm not mistaken.
Ted has one of, if not the most comprehensive 9/0 collection known to man. A keen eye and time is necessary in amassing a collection like that now a days.
Beautiful job on that baby,
Dom

Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Alto Mare on February 01, 2015, 02:33:13 PM
Dom, if Ray has only seen a half dozen of these handles and only on the 10/0 and 12/0, you know it's got to be rare ;).
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Maxed Out on February 01, 2015, 06:24:11 PM
      Another interesting tidbit about this log nob first generation 9/0 is it has the easy access drag washers.....I have seen lots of first gen 9/0 reels and have never found one with outside drag access.....till now.

      Thanks for posting that picture Sal.....I'm working on setting up photobucket.....someday reeeeel soon


      Dom, if you looked at the "before" picture the only thing recognizable is that log handle..........What you see is result of 3 hours of gentle fingertip massage therapy.
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: broadway on February 01, 2015, 07:07:04 PM
Sal,
   I'm basing most of what I say on Ted, Ray and Mikes knowledge.  When guys like this are willing to pass on Penn historical facts, I'm listening!  Like I do when the rest of you members talk reel repair/ tinkering.  ;)
This place is a wealth of knowledge. 
Thanks
Dom
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Alto Mare on February 01, 2015, 07:32:26 PM
Some more goodies from Ted:
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/IMG_20150130_164346663%20ted%204%20handles.jpg) (http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/pescatore1/media/IMG_20150130_164346663%20ted%204%20handles.jpg.html)
I'll let Ted fill you in.
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: broadway on February 01, 2015, 07:57:08 PM
Oh, I've been filled in and enjoyed my conversations with Ted about his rare finds.
Introducing me to Ted has definitely cost me some dough but it's like I have Otto on speed dial.
The problem is that he's got me scouring the globe in search of rare, old, cool penn reels that I can't let go by. ;)
Thanks,
Dom
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Superhook on February 01, 2015, 10:57:16 PM
Ted, 

You did a very good job on cleaning the Log knob 9/0 reel. It is a rare reel which links the shift from First generation internal drag to Second generation external drag. Penn would have had to make a separate mould for that side plate and it would have had such a small output before the second generation .  Amazing find. Thanks for sharing.

Ray
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Maxed Out on February 02, 2015, 01:00:40 AM
       Sal, those 4 different handles are from approx. 3-4 year time frame when penn was still experimenting with different 9/0 nobs in the late 30's....none of which ever went into production........ Only 4 doorknob 9/0 are known to exist, and approx. same amount of the tall skinny 9/0 nob, this is the only log nob 9/0 found so far, and rare 9/0 rosewood torpedo is very early 2nd gen..... I call them the Otto's Angels :D.


     Ray, somehow I expected you or Mike to end up with the log nob reel. You guys know what's mine is yours. I will offer to send it to Professor Mike for further examination and documentation, and somehow I think he'll take me up on that.  I'd offer to send it you for examination Ray, but just shipping it one way would cost more than the reel and I might never get it back outta your grip... lol
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Superhook on February 03, 2015, 08:23:58 AM
Ted,

If Mike gets his hands on it he will check it out thoroughly to make certain it is factory and not Hot rodded . ( Not likely)  You will get it back from Mike . I'd probably tuck it under my arm and shoot through or send back an Alvey.  :)  There has been plenty of missed reels along with some rare finds over the years. Can't win them all . Photos are good .

Ray
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Penn Chronology on February 12, 2015, 05:28:25 AM
QuoteThere has been plenty of missed reels along with some rare finds over the years. Can't win them all . Photos are good .

Yes, there are many missing super rare Penn reels still sitting in someones shed or basement.

How about the Penn Senator 12/O used in the photo section of the 1939 edition of Harlan Major's book on Salt Water Tackle?

(http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/m3040c/Penn%20Senators/PennSenator--Model116--12-O--scannedfromHarlanMajor1939editionofSaltWaterFishingTackle698x644_zpsb7a1d5fc.jpg)

This reel probably was given away by the author and could be anywhere in the world. During the war, Harlan Major was instrumental in collecting fishing tackle and delivering it to GI's stationed in the Pacific so they could go fishing when they we not in combat. This old Senator could be sitting on some Pacific Island still in use today. This is the only 12/O I have ever seen with the doorknob handle.
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Rivverrat on February 19, 2015, 06:55:47 AM
Dang what a great thread! first time I read it.
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Maxed Out on February 28, 2015, 07:03:25 AM
Wow Mike, that is one cool 12/0. I had only previously heard rumor of this 12/0, but now seeing the actual reel is amazing !!

I can't wait to see some of your other war era senators. How bout a few pics of some 1/0, and 2/0 reels ??
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Superhook on February 28, 2015, 11:49:42 AM

Hard to find first year 3/0 Senator . No part numbers.

(http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m531/kingfisher57/3-0%20first%20year%204.jpg) (http://s1130.photobucket.com/user/kingfisher57/media/3-0%20first%20year%204.jpg.html)

Pointed ends of Torepedo knob
(http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m531/kingfisher57/3-0%20First%20year%202.jpg) (http://s1130.photobucket.com/user/kingfisher57/media/3-0%20First%20year%202.jpg.html)

400 yards stamped on foot
(http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m531/kingfisher57/3-0%20First%20year%20...3.jpg) (http://s1130.photobucket.com/user/kingfisher57/media/3-0%20First%20year%20...3.jpg.html)

Drilled spool for line to tie to and coin edge counterweight.
(http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m531/kingfisher57/3-0%20First%20year%201.jpg) (http://s1130.photobucket.com/user/kingfisher57/media/3-0%20First%20year%201.jpg.html)

This one was like new and came from Hawaii another one from the mainland was exactly the same except with an amber handle.

Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: thorhammer on February 28, 2015, 01:32:05 PM
wow.....amazing stuff.....I recently  cleaned up a 16/0 for a buddy still on split hickory rod that was his grandad's in NJ. still had twisted cuttyhunk on it. I'm gonna see if he'll et me take pics and hopefully you guys can help date it. My man has pics of grandad in the 50's with tuna on this outfit so it's at least that old and in good shape. Now I am also gonna take my 14/0 down and look into it.

Perhaps the only sound more recognizable to a movie watching sportsman than an 870 slide getting racked is Quint's clicker going off......
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Maxed Out on February 28, 2015, 11:07:30 PM
Wow, that's a rare 3/0 there Ray. Seems like any small pre war senator is a rare find, muchless one in that condition. How bout a 1/0 or 2/0 from this era ?? I know you're hiding a few of those Ray. ;)
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Superhook on March 01, 2015, 03:31:32 AM
Ted,

I have not found a 1/0 with the drilled spool yet. I have 1/0 and  2/0's with coin edged counterweights . I think i have a 2/0 with a drilled spool ...somewhere. They also have stippled head plates but not stippled tail plates , no graphics . Next came handles with a plain counterweight with no lines at all then the counterweights with lines running the full circle. Most have pointed torpedo amber knobs with the odd red torpedo knob for the earliest models. I do have a 110 , 1/0 drilled spool in the box ( Thanks to Mike) When i find them i will photo and post.

Ray
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Penn Chronology on March 03, 2015, 03:12:30 AM
Quote. I do have a 110 , 1/0 drilled spool in the box ( Thanks to Mike) When i find them i will photo and post.

That's where that reel went!!! I have been looking for that reel for weeks now. ??? ??? ???
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Superhook on March 03, 2015, 11:37:51 AM
(http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m531/kingfisher57/9d0bb9bf-342f-4a90-ac48-d01c75d5a629.jpg) (http://s1130.photobucket.com/user/kingfisher57/media/9d0bb9bf-342f-4a90-ac48-d01c75d5a629.jpg.html)


(http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m531/kingfisher57/c4bbe01c-fbae-45d1-ad9b-a232d28ef10b.jpg) (http://s1130.photobucket.com/user/kingfisher57/media/c4bbe01c-fbae-45d1-ad9b-a232d28ef10b.jpg.html)

Photos of Ted's 1942 mint 1/0 Senator
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Superhook on March 03, 2015, 12:26:14 PM
Mike,

It was not a reel you gave me but a NOS spool in the black box. Well tonight i found it and it is not drilled , it has a line post. It's looking more like the 1/0 and 2/0's did not have drilled spools. Found a very good early 2/0 with Penn tie on tag with line post.

Ray
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Penn Chronology on March 03, 2015, 08:26:48 PM
QuoteMike,

It was not a reel you gave me but a NOS spool in the black box.
Ray

Well Ray, you know me, I spend half my life confused and cannot remember the other half. That is why I have to write everything down. :(
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Superhook on March 04, 2015, 02:12:01 AM
(http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m531/kingfisher57/20946720-924f-4f91-906d-be8e7c7e2f53.jpg) (http://s1130.photobucket.com/user/kingfisher57/media/20946720-924f-4f91-906d-be8e7c7e2f53.jpg.html)

Photo is from the Internet . Left Handed 1/0 with the original box Priced at $13.50 . After checking the catalogs , the L/H Senators of sizes 1/0 , 2/0 & 3/0 were $1.00 extra. 4/0 and up were $2.00 extra. The 1/0 was $12.50 from 1946-1950 . With that die cut Penn tag often seen on war era reels my guess would be 1946 although with the "Fair Trade Price" printed on the box it may date it later to 1949. The type "Senator" is printed on an angle which is correct for the early boxes.

Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Superhook on March 04, 2015, 02:33:59 AM
(http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m531/kingfisher57/7ca685be-b7a0-4139-8c36-2bec2f255d9f.jpg) (http://s1130.photobucket.com/user/kingfisher57/media/7ca685be-b7a0-4139-8c36-2bec2f255d9f.jpg.html)

Ted's 2/0 and box. Difficult to date exactly without the box price.  I'm thinking late 40's early 50's if it does not have part numbers . The type "SENATOR" is horizontal not on an angle.
The "Fair Trade Price" printed on the box suggests 49-51. I'll suggest 50-51.
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Superhook on March 04, 2015, 02:55:36 AM
(http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m531/kingfisher57/senator%20boxes%20from%20Mark%20Edson.jpg) (http://s1130.photobucket.com/user/kingfisher57/media/senator%20boxes%20from%20Mark%20Edson.jpg.html)
This was a group of Senator boxes i bought on Joe's Lures site.
The bottom left is a 3/0 box at $15.00 which is correct for the first year 1942.
The top left is a 2/0 box at $15.00 which is correct for 2nd year 1946.
The top right is a 3/0 box at $17.00 which is correct for 1946.

Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Maxed Out on March 04, 2015, 03:27:02 AM
Wow Ray, no wonder nobody else can locate those early boxes. It's cause you and Mike have 'em all ;) Very cool to get to see them. Thanks for sharing.


........and that lefty 1/0 is a museum piece.

I recently bought a pristine chrome 1/0 spool from the 40's that came in a newell spool box and seller had no idea it was a penn. This tells me that someone hot rodded a 40's 1/0 that was in pristine condition.  :( ....a sad day indeed.


.....and yes, you nailed the date on that 2/0 Ray. It does have part numbers. I had it figured as 1951.
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Superhook on March 06, 2015, 12:05:14 AM
Ted,

I scored those boxes a couple of years ago and was just lucky to spot them soon after they were listed. You have to be quick .

Ray
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: fishhead69 on April 17, 2015, 01:41:05 PM
What is the relative value of a new in the lighthouse box Penn Senator 14/0 reel with a 7 o'clock handle?
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: broadway on April 17, 2015, 02:37:09 PM
You selling that 14/0, Paul? I may be or know someone who may be interested if you are.
Thanks
Dom
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Penn Chronology on April 17, 2015, 04:22:12 PM
QuoteWhat is the relative value of a new in the lighthouse box Penn Senator 14/0 reel with a 7 o'clock handle?

My new book is available for orders at the White Press website < http://www.whitefishpress.com/ >. This issue has a modern price guide and my opinion, guidebook value for that 1949 14/O is in there.

I do not like to quote prices in this kind of environment because I am sure I will make someone unhappy. ::)
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: coastal_dan on April 17, 2015, 04:58:28 PM
Yes...release the Kraken!  Can we just order the book through you Mike?

That lefty 1/0 is beautiful.  Definitely a very interesting sized reel for the time.  Ray - when you say PHOTO FROM INTERNET, is this in someones collection?
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: foakes on April 17, 2015, 05:22:17 PM
Thanks for letting us know about your new book, Mike.

I will order mine now.

$39.95 on sale.

Best,

Fred
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Superhook on April 17, 2015, 08:44:49 PM
Dan,

If my memory is correct I believe an ORCA member bought a group of Penn reels and this was one.

Ray
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Jerseymic on April 17, 2015, 09:47:36 PM
Quote from: Penn Chronology on April 17, 2015, 04:22:12 PM
QuoteWhat is the relative value of a new in the lighthouse box Penn Senator 14/0 reel with a 7 o'clock handle?

My new book is available for orders at the White Press website < http://www.whitefishpress.com/ >. This issue has a modern price guide and my opinion, guidebook value for that 1949 14/O is in there.

I do not like to quote prices in this kind of environment because I am sure I will make someone unhappy. ::)

Book ordered Mike, should reach me in a couple of weeks.
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Penn Chronology on April 18, 2015, 04:53:21 AM
I do not have copies for sale at this time. Please order from the Whitefish Press.
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Superhook on April 30, 2015, 08:11:37 AM
 Ted scored an as new late 1940's 6/0 . No pleading ,it is not for sale.

(http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m531/kingfisher57/IMG_20150429_235523968.jpg) (http://s1130.photobucket.com/user/kingfisher57/media/IMG_20150429_235523968.jpg.html)

(http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m531/kingfisher57/IMG_20150429_235559552.jpg) (http://s1130.photobucket.com/user/kingfisher57/media/IMG_20150429_235559552.jpg.html)
You'll have to wear gloves to handle this beauty.
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: broadway on April 30, 2015, 02:03:58 PM
Ray, you're right about it being a beauty and a great find, but I believe it's a 6/0. May have to check with Ted for clarification, but I think it's a 6/0.  He probably has a 9/0 just like it, too. ;D
Thanks for posting the photo,
Dom
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Penn Chronology on April 30, 2015, 02:54:32 PM
That certainly is a thing of beauty. It falls into that rare and sought after category, """Better Than New""".....................  :o :o
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: coastal_dan on April 30, 2015, 03:27:46 PM
Oh my, way to go Ted.  Another beauty for your stable.
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Superhook on April 30, 2015, 09:06:29 PM
Thanks Dom you are correct , it is definitely a 6/0 . I have edited the photo so as not to leave a mess behind. I'm living in the 9/0 twilight zone .
Funny how he finds these mint reels ....must have developed a Bloodhound like skill that allows him to SNIFF them out.
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Maxed Out on May 01, 2015, 03:25:18 AM
Quote from: Superhook on April 30, 2015, 09:06:29 PM
Thanks Dom you are correct , it is definitely a 6/0 . I have edited the photo so as not to leave a mess behind. I'm living in the 9/0 twilight zone .
Funny how he finds these mint reels ....must have developed a Bloodhound like skill that allows him to SNIFF them out.


    Funny guy you are Ray. I am more like a Yorkshire terrior than a bloodhound.....and I know nothing about any 9/0. Wish I had one. I have several that look like 9/0 size, but just says "senator" and they all have goofy handles that look homemade, so who knows.
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: broadway on May 01, 2015, 03:51:31 PM
Ted, "Black Beard" You do have an uncanny knack for finding lost treasure.
As for your weird handles and no 9/0 logos, they're probably not the real thing... You should send them to me and I'll send you some authentic penn reels that have the 9/0 on the plates and genuine pen handles.😁
Nice find,
Dom
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: handi2 on June 23, 2015, 10:58:37 PM
I just opened up one of the old 9/0's that came apart easily. No parts numbers on any of the parts and shallow steel main gear. The gear sleeve had been changes to SS at some time. There is only enough room in the main gear for 3 washers. No markings at all on the tail plate.

Just a couple of pictures.
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Tightlines667 on June 23, 2015, 11:16:08 PM
Cool pics Keith!

I will buy that reel if it is for sale.  I for one, would like to see pics of the tailplate, reel stand, inside of headplate, and the bridge hole arangement.

What kind of handle came on that reel?

I don't think I would upgrade anything on this reel.  The shallow steel gear, and bronze sleeve bushing are pretty cool, and along with the gearbox location, is indicitive of a pre-1948 reel.  Are the stand bolts short?  Are they mounted in round or square holes?  Does it have a 3-piece spool?  Waffle, or hershy's kiss clicker knob.  What does the handle retaining screw look like (scalloped with or without the set screw?)?

Sorry for so many questions.

Thanks for sharing!
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Alto Mare on June 23, 2015, 11:21:50 PM
Keith, put everything back in that reel and leave it alone. You got yourself a little treasure.
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: handi2 on June 23, 2015, 11:36:07 PM
Quote from: Tightlines666 on June 23, 2015, 11:16:08 PM
Cool pics Keith!

I will buy that reel if it is for sale.  I for one, would like to see pics of the tailplate, reel stand, inside of headplate, and the bridge hole arangement.

What kind of handle came on that reel?

I don't think I would upgrade anything on this reel.  The shallow steel gear, and bronze sleeve bushing are pretty cool, and along with the gearbox location, is indicitive of a pre-1948 reel.  Are the stand bolts short?  Are they mounted in round or square holes?  Does it have a 3-piece spool?  Waffle, or hershy's kiss clicker knob.  What does the handle retaining screw look like (scalloped with or without the set screw?)?

Sorry for so many questions.

Thanks for sharing!

I will post the other pictures after I clean all the black oil and grease off the parts. It doesn't have the 3 piece spool but the one I just finished does. I'll switch the spools and check the handle. It was a normal handle with the brown knob.

It had been worked on b/c it had HT-100 washers installed and the click button was a "Hershey" style. The other reel had the waffle click button and no parts lettering.
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Tightlines667 on June 24, 2015, 12:00:59 AM
Quote from: handi2 on June 23, 2015, 11:36:07 PM
Quote from: Tightlines666 on June 23, 2015, 11:16:08 PM
Cool pics Keith!

I will buy that reel if it is for sale.  I for one, would like to see pics of the tailplate, reel stand, inside of headplate, and the bridge hole arangement.

What kind of handle came on that reel?

I don't think I would upgrade anything on this reel.  The shallow steel gear, and bronze sleeve bushing are pretty cool, and along with the gearbox location, is indicitive of a pre-1948 reel.  Are the stand bolts short?  Are they mounted in round or square holes?  Does it have a 3-piece spool?  Waffle, or hershy's kiss clicker knob.  What does the handle retaining screw look like (scalloped with or without the set screw?)?

Sorry for so many questions.

Thanks for sharing!

I will post the other pictures after I clean all the black oil and grease off the parts. It doesn't have the 3 piece spool but the one I just finished does. I'll switch the spools and check the handle. It was a normal handle with the brown knob.

It had been worked on b/c it had HT-100 washers installed and the click button was a "Hershey" style. The other reel had the waffle click button and no parts lettering.

The other reel sounds like it may be an earlier model.  Pics would be great. You may have 2 treasures here.  They both should have 3-piece spools and counterbalanced reel handles w/ coin edged counterweights.  Handles are easy enough to obtain.  LMK if wither reel might be for sale.
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: handi2 on June 25, 2015, 12:09:39 AM
Here are the pictures requested.

I took the 3 piece spool out of the other one that had newer side plate markings but was still a no part numbers reel and has the counterbalanced handle. I'll get that tomorrow.

They are customer reels and I'm sure he would sell some of them. There are 3 of the non bearing 9/0 reels. I have some counter balanced handles in my old handles box but they may be for the 349 and other reels.
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Tightlines667 on June 25, 2015, 12:44:52 AM
Thanks for sharing!
That appears to definately be an early (pre 1940) headplate, and the tailplate is also period correct.  The headplate bushing has been replaced at some point, and should be a non-numbered part, as should all of the rest of the parts (including the stand, rod braces, star, jack, yoke, eccentric and lever, and lever and handle retaining screws.  This reel should have actually had a pencil knob or some other handle, but a large, non-numbered counterbalanced todpedo handle with a large coin-edged counterweight would be period correct.  Since you have 2 older 9/0s apart or in your possesion, I would try to make one complete, period correct reel with as many nonnumbered parts as are available.  Maybe check your handle pile to see if you have any nonnumbered 9/0 sized handle assemblies. 

As with most collectors, the devil is in the details.  Overall condition, period correct/completeness, as well as rarity, and historical significance are paramount. 

LMK if the owner is interested in selling this older, prewar 9/0.  You can certainly have him email me directly.


Also, I am looking for nonnumbered parts (3-piece spool, and power handle) for an early 14/0.  Lmk if you come accross anything laying around your shop there.
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: handi2 on June 27, 2015, 05:07:00 PM
I did put the non numbered counter balanced handle on the reel. Along with the 3 piece spool. I'll contact him today, Saturday to see if he will sell it.

What would be a going price? Neither him or I have no idea. The external parts are rough and the internals are very good.
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Tightlines667 on August 09, 2015, 10:10:00 PM
I went back to Hickam Harbor boatyard yesterday, and managed to buy an early 10/0 mounted to an early big game boat rod (see http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=14650.15 ).

According to the owner, this particular reel/rod combo was fishing out of Pearl Harbor just after the war ended, and has been hanging in the boathouse at the entrance to the harbor since the early 1960s.

The reel has definately seen some use, and has a rounded gear sleeve, loose bridge, damaged rod clamp, and frozen clicker pawl.  It is still spooled with linen line, and has likely caught a number of large marlin, and tuna on the smaller lightweight Hawaiian-built trolling lures popular here in the 1940s and 50s.

The reel is completely non-numbered, and has the weaker stamped reel foot, with small bolts.  The 3 piece spool, appears old and may have a drilled arbor.  The star is the thicker/early style, and the free spool lever is thicker with the coin edge.  The handle is wood, the arm is thick, and has the large coin-edged counterweight.  The logo is the newer style, and gearbox is in second gen config.

According to Mike's book the non-numbered, lever-forward 10/0 was produced in 1949/1950, but the handle, stand, bolts, clamp, and possibly the spool seem to suggest prewar production.  Any thoughts as to the production year, and value of the reel? 

I am looking forward to breaking it down and giving it a through cleaning/restoration.  I am happy to own it and will be proud to add it to my display.
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Tightlines667 on August 09, 2015, 10:11:10 PM
A few more pics...
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Tightlines667 on August 10, 2015, 12:25:02 AM
Quote from: Superhook on March 03, 2015, 12:26:14 PM
Mike,

It was not a reel you gave me but a NOS spool in the black box. Well tonight i found it and it is not drilled , it has a line post. It's looking more like the 1/0 and 2/0's did not have drilled spools. Found a very good early 2/0 with Penn tie on tag with line post.

Ray

Ray here are a couple of pictures of my first year 1/0, and 2/0.  Neither have drilled spool arbors.  The box is correct for a first year 3/0.  The 2/0 is in nearly mint condition.  In the background (from right to left) are my first gen config 14/0 (w/later period spool, handle, stand, clamp, braces, bridge, jack, and yoke), second gen 10/0 (likely with prewar spool and wood handle), first year (second run) or second year waffle clicker 49 with a 1941/42 handle (soon to be updated with period correct), and a second (or third year) 149 with the hex clicker.  Also a Dover Club, and Pfluger Everlaster with William's drag.  Both the 10/0 and Pflueger were local Hawaiian reels that were presumably fished hard.  

I also have a complete NOS Peerless Monofil 9MS, and a second year/late first year 109.  

Also a waffle clicker 1937 Sea Hawk, brown plate 4 post SeaFord, waffle clicker/4post/metal spool No.15, 3 post, waffle clicker Atlantic Ocean no. 14 trade reel, a 180 w/balsa covered spool, and a 185.  

Not a bad start for 4 months of collecting :)
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Penn Chronology on August 10, 2015, 05:36:02 AM
QuoteI went back to Hickam Harbor boatyard yesterday, and managed to buy an early 10/0 mounted to an early big game boat rod (see http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=14650.15 ).

According to the owner, this particular reel/rod combo was fishing out of Pearl Harbor just after the war ended, and has been hanging in the boathouse at the entrance to the harbor since the early 1960s.

The reel has definately seen some use, and has a rounded gear sleeve, loose bridge, damaged rod clamp, and frozen clicker pawl.  It is still spooled with linen line, and has likely caught a number of large marlin, and tuna on the smaller lightweight Hawaiian-built trolling lures popular here in the 1940s and 50s.

The reel is completely non-numbered, and has the weaker stamped reel foot, with small bolts.  The 3 piece spool, appears old and may have a drilled arbor.  The star is the thicker/early style, and the free spool lever is thicker with the coin edge.  The handle is wood, the arm is thick, and has the large coin-edged counterweight.  The logo is the newer style, and gearbox is in second gen config.

According to Mike's book the non-numbered, lever-forward 10/0 was produced in 1949/1950, but the handle, stand, bolts, clamp, and possibly the spool seem to suggest prewar production.  Any thoughts as to the production year, and value of the reel? 

I am looking forward to breaking it down and giving it a through cleaning/restoration.  I am happy to own it and will be proud to add it to my display.

John, that rig is a great find and what collecting is all about. The Pearl Harbor history is very interesting. According to your info, this reel was in use from 1946, or so, to 1960. With the kind of fishing use that is done in the Hawaiian islands, that could be five lifetimes of use for the average 10/O. Making a judgment about the reel and its true history by using its present condition and parts can be very inconclusive. No telling how many times this reel has been broken down for maintenance or what parts are original or not. The most important thing you should do is record the exact information you have about the rig. Clean the reel and bring it up to the best operating condition you can without changing original parts. You might want to restore the rod. In my opinion, you should first photograph the rod from every angle, then restore it back to the way you found it. A piece like this should be researched to death, its personal history may have surprises. This is one of those rigs that makes you wish it could talk!
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Superhook on August 14, 2015, 12:59:46 AM
Tightlines/John,

You are steaming ahead with great collectibles. The early Senator boxes with the heading on an angle are uncommon . Good score on the 3/0 first year box.

Looks like linen line on your 10/0 . It is an early 2nd gen 10/0 and may even have a drilled spool.

Ray
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Superhook on October 06, 2015, 04:40:39 AM
You won't see any green rust on these Senators but you may turn a bit green at Ted's collection of beautiful old Senators.

(http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m531/kingfisher57/Teds%20Snators.jpg) (http://s1130.photobucket.com/user/kingfisher57/media/Teds%20Snators.jpg.html)

All except the 9/0 on the centre right and the Hot Rod 9/0 at the back left are 3 piece spool versions.

(http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m531/kingfisher57/Teds%20Senators%20%202%202.jpg) (http://s1130.photobucket.com/user/kingfisher57/media/Teds%20Senators%20%202%202.jpg.html)

Even a couple of the Old Penn reel bags too.

Thanks for sharing Ted and congratulations on what must have been a lot of time and $'s in putting such fine examples together.

Ray

Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Superhook on October 06, 2015, 05:34:24 AM
Rowyd's Penn Senator 6/0 with ID on headplate " 114-H "  .  This was when Penn stepped up the gearing and most people think of them having the maroon plates . This model with the black plates and the 114-H ID is a rare find.

(http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m531/kingfisher57/Rowdys%20114-H%201.png) (http://s1130.photobucket.com/user/kingfisher57/media/Rowdys%20114-H%201.png.html)

(http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m531/kingfisher57/Rowdys%20114-H%203.png) (http://s1130.photobucket.com/user/kingfisher57/media/Rowdys%20114-H%203.png.html)

(http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m531/kingfisher57/Rowdys%20114-H%202.png) (http://s1130.photobucket.com/user/kingfisher57/media/Rowdys%20114-H%202.png.html)

(http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m531/kingfisher57/Rowdys%20114-H%20%204.png) (http://s1130.photobucket.com/user/kingfisher57/media/Rowdys%20114-H%20%204.png.html)

Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Tightlines667 on October 06, 2015, 05:52:33 AM
Great reels there.  I seem to remember that second one there ;)

I have been fortunate-enough to have gained a sneak peak at that pic of Ted's reels before.  Absolutely stunning reels especially considering they are basically all over 60 years old.  I like that Itty-bitty one too.  Looks like most if not all of those could easily pass for NOS or Mint at the very least. 

Thanks for sharing. 
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Alto Mare on October 06, 2015, 09:52:56 AM
Ted, you always amaze me, that is absolutely gorgeous. I believe the 3 piece spool Senator collection is the most sought after and the most difficult to get, I only know of one other person that has one.
Considering the shape that yours are in, it makes it close to impossible to beat.
Very nice my friend. Do I see a 16/0 as well in the bunch?
Thanks for sharing pal, you have a treasure.

Sal
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Maxed Out on October 06, 2015, 05:49:54 PM

      Ray, the black 114H was the first run of that new model (Mid 1963) and they can be tough to find, but not really rare. Finding one unscathed is rare, cause most these reels were put to use. The holy grail would be for a black 113H to be found, but I am positive the first 113H's were all the dark maroon color.

      Sal, there is no 16/0 in the pics Ray posted.... front is 3-12/0's, far back is a couple 10/0, then a handful of 9/0 a couple 6/0 and a 1/0.....my late 50's 16/0 jaws combo is leaning on the wall downstairs.

      Notice back left is a late 70's 9/0 with a Dom/Tom frame, and far right behind the 12/0 is a mid 70's "lefty" 9/0. If I had to pick out a favorite it would be the first year 1/0 (1942), but in actuality they're all my favorites.  ;D
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Tightlines667 on October 06, 2015, 08:02:30 PM
Quote from: Max Doubt on October 06, 2015, 05:49:54 PM

      Ray, the black 114H was the first run of that new model (Mid 1963) and they can be tough to find, but not really rare. Finding one unscathed is rare, cause most these reels were put to use. The holy grail would be for a black 113H to be found, but I am positive the first 113H's were all the dark maroon color.

      Sal, there is no 16/0 in the pics Ray posted.... front is 3-12/0's, far back is a couple 10/0, then a handful of 9/0 a couple 6/0 and a 1/0.....my late 50's 16/0 jaws combo is leaning on the wall downstairs.

      Notice back left is a late 70's 9/0 with a Dom/Tom frame, and far right behind the 12/0 is a mid 70's "lefty" 9/0. If I had to pick out a favorite it would be the first year 1/0 (1942), but in actuality they're all my favorites.  ;D

That is my favorite of the group as well.  Though I think you have a few others behind glass that can top that gem.  Has anyone ever actually seen a 16/0 3-piece spool?  Not sure how many 16/0's were produced prior to the 1 piece becoming standard?  I would expect the 16/0 to be the first reel to be produced in second gen gearbox config.   Maybe there was actually never a full production run in first gen config? & The first Senator to sport a 1-piece spool?  Does anyone actually have access to an estimate on the total number of 16/0's produced with a 3-piece spool?
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Superhook on October 06, 2015, 10:01:33 PM
Tightlines,

John ,
   There is one known/photographed 16/0 1st gen on page 1 of this thread. I have seen some second generation 16/0's with 3 piece spools with both drilled line ties and raised posts .  There are not lots about. I think they were a $100 and around 1940 that was a lot of money . The first generation design was obsolete and the parts were used until gone because the 2nd generation design was in production before the war. The catalogs do not show the 2nd generation in the description pages but there are photos of the 2nd generation 16/0's  in some of the photos of the fishermen and their catches pre-war at the back of the catalogs. There may have only been a couple of years of 1st gen 16/0 production. There is a NOS 1948/9 16/0 in the L'House box in Mike's book.

Ted,
  Thank you for the information on the 114-H . I have only ever seen a couple advertised on Ebay for big dollars. Many are advertised as 114-H but do not have the proper ID.My education of Penn fades away after the late 50's.

Ray

Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Tightlines667 on October 06, 2015, 10:09:36 PM
Ted,
Thank you for your quick and through response!  I was thinking that there must be prewar 16/0's in the second gen build style with drilled arbor, 3-piece spools.  Likewise, it seems reasonable to deduce there were likely a few postwar reels that went out with the drilled Arbor spools (as they depleted their prewar stock).  I have put out an APB with my local sources for a 16/0 3-piece spool.  I am afraid some may have found their way into the garbage when these reels were brought in for servicing (according to the best recollection of my sources).  Yet there is still hope.  The search continues....
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Maxed Out on October 07, 2015, 12:55:56 AM
   John, you have obtained some sought after reels in a very short time....your eye is becoming much sharper at knowing the right things to look for. You struck gold on that 1st gen 14/0, and the handle may not be original, but looks like you found a handle that is early 2nd gen, and that's more than most could do....keep the pics coming !!


   Ray, you are encyclopedia of info and I believe you are correct for when 1st gen phased out and 2nd gen began. I'm sure there are a few 1st gen 16/0's floating around, and when one surfaces I bet John or Dom will be all over it.
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: redsetta on October 07, 2015, 05:47:26 AM
Best. Thread. Ever. ;) ;D
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: broadway on October 07, 2015, 12:55:43 PM
   Looking at that photo of (part) of Ted's collection makes me realize it's possible to amass an unreal collection with a keen eye that can look past the bent lug, cracked handle grip, Etc. and make these reels mint again and period correct. Patience is the name of the game, and that's one of the major things to make a collector's collection stick out above the rest. You wouldn't waste your time on a labor of love like this one if you were in it for the money... This is strictly a passionate way of finding treasure that Ted is a master at. If you're looking for mint lighthouse boxed Penn Senators you either need to be independently wealthy, or have the ability and patience to put one together for yourself. Sourcing parts and boxes aren't easy, actually usually more difficult than finding the reel in many cases. Thanks for showing us what's possible in this day and age of Penn reels. Ray, thanks for posting that photo... Ted's a bit too modest sometimes.
Great stuff,
Dom
Ps- show me a first gen. 16/0 and yes, I'm all over that... But I'll have to watch out for john because he's on fire with his collecting.
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Oceanreels on October 12, 2015, 11:12:02 PM
There are actually 3 versions of the early 16/0 reels without part numbers. First is the 5 O'clock ( first gen. ) handle reel with the same small bridge and sleeve assy. and drags as used on the 12/0.
(http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o52/BAP1-5Scale/coin/16%200%205%20o%20clock_zpsrineegf9.jpg)
  The second is the 7 O'clock ( second gen. ) handle reel that again has the same bridge, sleeve, and drag assy. as the 12/0 reels. From what I can tell these were made between 1940 & 1941.
(http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o52/BAP1-5Scale/coin/1940-41%2016-0%20PENN%20015_zpsav9fw1dw.jpg)
   The last was made starting in 1942 as shown in the add from The Fishing and Vacation Year Book put out by Field & Stream and Outdoor Life. This reel has the new large bridge, sleeve and drag assy. that became standard on all 12/0 and 16/0 reels.
    The first gen. reel has a drilled 3 piece spool. The 2 early second gens., with the 12/0 bridge, sleeve and drag assy. that I have, both have line on them so I can't tell if the spools are drilled or not.
(http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o52/BAP1-5Scale/coin/1942%20add_zpsht6ehzn6.jpg)
(http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o52/BAP1-5Scale/coin/close%20up%201942%20add_zpsbhwadhjs.jpg)
(http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o52/BAP1-5Scale/coin/Late%2016%200_zpspparwunx.jpg)
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: broadway on October 13, 2015, 03:05:47 AM
I asked and I shall receive... I said I'd be all over a first gen 16/0, but I'm pretty sure these aren't on the auction block.  Is that the only 1st gen. 16/0 brought into the public eye so far?
Thanks for showing us what's out there, Brian.  You sure know how to make an introduction.  That linen line looks like rope. :o
Dom
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Penn Chronology on October 13, 2015, 04:56:06 AM
Brian,

Glad to see you make your way over to this site. You are gonna Love it here ;D

You know who!
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Alto Mare on October 13, 2015, 10:45:20 AM
Welcome Brian, nice to have you here.

Sal
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Oceanreels on October 13, 2015, 04:35:09 PM
    Thanks Sal, glad I found out you had a forum on old reels.
Yes, I know who. I'm glad you mentioned this forum.
    Dom,  that is the only 1st gen. 16/0 brought into the public eye so far. You are correct it is not on the auction block.
  I figured I should introduce myself to everyone so I put something on First Post. It is not my first post, but thought it was the best place to do it.
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Tightlines667 on October 13, 2015, 05:05:18 PM
Quote from: Oceanreels on October 13, 2015, 04:35:09 PM
    Thanks Sal, glad I found out you had a forum on old reels.
Yes, I know who. I'm glad you mentioned this forum.
    Dom,  that is the only 1st gen. 16/0 brought into the public eye so far. You are correct it is not on the auction block.
  I figured I should introduce myself to everyone so I put something on First Post. It is not my first post, but thought it was the best place to do it.

Brian,
I am glad to have you onboard.  Way to come in with a *Bang*
It appears you have a wealth of knowledge on these old treasures.  We have a good group of guys here, and a number of enthusiastic Penn collectors.  Threads like this, and the enthusiasm, knowledge, and generosity of fellow members turned me onto this fine hobby.  Please stay awhile, I think you will find the atmosphere to your liking.
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Maxed Out on October 15, 2015, 01:20:33 AM
............I'm still up for adoption Brian. I don't eat much and I'll pamper the reels daily ! ;D ;) :D
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: DillyDally on October 27, 2015, 04:17:10 PM
Hello Everyone.  I'm completely new to this forum...and forums in general!  I'm also pretty new to fishing reel repair, and collecting.  But I've come across a Senator 6/0 with a handle I've never seen before, and in all my research, there's not another forum like this one on the subject!!!  May I post a few pictures, and have your "tight knit crew of collectors" comment?    Thanks!    Dale
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Oceanreels on October 27, 2015, 04:36:21 PM
Welcome Dale.  Post your photos everyone is waiting.
   Brian
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: DillyDally on October 27, 2015, 05:01:45 PM
Thanks for the welcome, Brian!  Here goes...
I can't find a serial number anywhere, but the drive side indicates it's not first generation. I'm guessing mid-late fourties on the year of manufacture.  But the rivet on the handle knob is throwing me off.  I've never seen one like it in any pictures. I'm thinking it's one of two scenarios...1) The oiler got damaged, and somebody put a solid rivet in it's place (NICE JOB, if that's the case), or 2) It was made late in WWII, and the supply of oiler fittings was temporarily not available, so they made due with a solid, non-flush rivet.  This second scenario is not so far fetched.  I'm a luthier, and guitar collector...and I've seen MANY  guitars that came out of the war-time period (or immediate post war, when production resumed) from converted factories that used whatever they could get a hold of to turn out product.  Gibson Guitars, for example, had converted MOST of their production to making skids for gliders during WWII.  But what little guitars they DID make during that period, where not ornate models...and many came out with non-standard parts.  A real hodge podge!  Anyway....anyone seen anything like this?   Dale
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Oceanreels on October 27, 2015, 06:28:08 PM
Dale,
Never saw one like it. I think your first scenario is correct as a well as your guess as to age.
  Lets see what others have to say.
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: broadway on October 27, 2015, 06:54:07 PM
I agree with Brian... it's possible the handle was loosening or too tight, so they popped the oil port bearing and riveted it to get it back on track. Ted, just brought the fact that the oil port bearing gets installed after the handle is riveted on to my attention.  I should've known that but i never really thought about it.
Welcome Dilly!
Dom
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Tightlines667 on October 27, 2015, 08:38:14 PM
I agree with the above, but am not quite sure how the oiler can be 'popped' off of the handle easily.  Seems like the handle grasp would need to be pressed off of the outter bushing, then the oiler could be punched out from the inside?  I wonder if the oiler had been damaged, and a new one was just partially pressed in from the outside.  I am considering pressing a new oiler into my prewar Silver Beach handle.

(http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy77/Tightlines666/Mobile%20Uploads/20151025_194003_zpsqikhtaxz.jpg) (http://s779.photobucket.com/user/Tightlines666/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20151025_194003_zpsqikhtaxz.jpg.html)

Your handle may have had similar damage at one point?
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: DillyDally on October 28, 2015, 03:09:09 PM
Interesting, Tightlines...Though, I've never seen a Penn schematic that shows the oiler fitting as a user serviceable part. Nor have I seen one on anybody's parts list.  Would you just employ your removal theory, and cannibalize one from another handle? I'm very curious to see how that works for you, should you decide on that route. 

My other theory might still one day be proven viable...IF somebody comes across some other Penn handles so adorned from that period.  It looks like the same rivet that I've seen on SOME of the early "pear shaped" handle knobs.  So it stands to reason that if there was a shortage of oiler fittings once full production of reels resumed, that somebody might have made the decision to grab a box of those out of some corner, press them in, and get the reels out the door!  These little glimpses of small-time history really fascinate me.

Other than curiosity, it really makes no difference to me. I don't plan on changing it, and I'll be fishing with this reel, rather than making a museum piece out of it anyway. This reel has a nice feel to it, and I've always had a soft spot for anything produced in the 40s.  It sure was fun to put this together from the "bag of parts" condition that I bought it in!  Apparently, the previous owner had taken it apart DECADES ago, and had long forgotten how to put it back together.  I'm really amazed that it actually came to me with only a very few small parts missing.  The pinion gear had rusted onto the spool shaft though, and after weeks of trying nearly every break-free recipe I could find, I finally resorted to heating it red with a torch, and it finally let go.  No damage to anything!  I did also upgrade the drag with some thin carbontex washers...and added another set of metal washers to fill out the stack. It should be more drag than I'll ever need!

Anyway...Thanks for the welcome, Dom.  I feel like I'm in a room with an impressive collective set of knowledge.  Maybe like being at a WWII reunion, and listening in on all the experience, drama, and even on long-lost "common knowledge"!  I appreciate you all having me aboard!  Dale
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Superhook on November 06, 2015, 12:05:15 AM


Ted's 1938 #6 Coloured catalog . L'house box . Log handle 9/0 reel with outer drag access and extras.

(http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m531/kingfisher57/Teds%20log%20handle%20package.jpg) (http://s1130.photobucket.com/user/kingfisher57/media/Teds%20log%20handle%20package.jpg.html)


Small Penn bag with early address.
(http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m531/kingfisher57/Teds%20Penn%20bag.jpg) (http://s1130.photobucket.com/user/kingfisher57/media/Teds%20Penn%20bag.jpg.html)


Oil tube in original box which fits into another box for shipping/protection.
(http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m531/kingfisher57/Teds%20boxed%20oil%20box.jpg) (http://s1130.photobucket.com/user/kingfisher57/media/Teds%20boxed%20oil%20box.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Oceanreels on November 06, 2015, 12:15:04 AM
   There you go. Never know what will pop up.
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: mo65 on July 29, 2017, 06:58:28 PM
   I finally scored a decent 9/0 "from the beginning"...possibly a first year '36...but no later than a '38. Considering this dude is 80 years old I guess it's condition isn't really too bad. The handle nut is boogered, the tail plate bearing is well worn, and the rings have some brassing. All this must just be poor care and bad handling by previous owners, because inside it was spotless. I'm pretty sure this reel was never wet until I dunked it in a soapy sink. I'm leaving it all stock, even the 2 leather/1 red fiber 3-stack. 8)
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Superhook on July 30, 2017, 12:12:15 AM
Mo,

That's much better than anyone should expect to find. Great piece of Penn history.

Ray
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Tightlines667 on July 30, 2017, 02:04:21 AM
Beautiful reel there Mo!  I wish my early 9/0 was half as nice.  That will make a great shelfie.

John
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Oceanreels on July 30, 2017, 02:04:56 PM
That's a lot better than decent. Nice early 9/0.
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Benni3 on July 30, 2017, 04:23:58 PM
Cool 9/0 mo,,,great find  ;D
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: thorhammer on July 31, 2017, 03:57:18 PM
Sweet Mo!
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: sdlehr on July 31, 2017, 04:30:33 PM
Wow, Mo! Great find! The spool seems immaculate yet the ring on the outside right is brassing.... I smell a mystery here! What does the foot look like? How about the left side ring? It doesn't look like there is brassing on the handle in the place one's thumb usually rubs.... is that so? In what situation would this wear as it has? Hmmm. I like mysteries. This reel has a story to tell, we just don't know what it is yet.

Sid
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: mo65 on July 31, 2017, 06:50:36 PM
Quote from: sdlehr on July 31, 2017, 04:30:33 PM
Wow, Mo! Great find! The spool seems immaculate yet the ring on the outside right is brassing.... I smell a mystery here! What does the foot look like? How about the left side ring? It doesn't look like there is brassing on the handle in the place one's thumb usually rubs.... is that so? In what situation would this wear as it has? Hmmm. I like mysteries. This reel has a story to tell, we just don't know what it is yet.

Sid

   Thanks Sid, let me see if I can solve this. I think the mystery is just wear you folks near the coast aren't used to seeing. You guys see wear from use...here in the hills we see wear from being stored in a junk drawer. Or toted from flea market to flea market in a milk crate. I see lots of reels with great spools. Being completely covered in dry, unused line for 50+ years keeps chrome mint. The total opposite of wet line. What the pics don't show is that spool has a marking where the line edge was. The stand looks just like the rings. The only reason that front outside ring looks so brassy is some former owner thought a brillo pad would restore his reel...sheesh! This reel shipped from Tennessee...I can picture it spending the past 70 years in some ol' timers' dresser.  Being dragged by and bounced around on that tail side bearing explains why it has no chrome. Fast forward to an auction...where some picker decided he could get more out of it by stripping that old linen line...and scrubbing the reel clean. That's how I see this one's story. Thanks everyone for the interest! 8)
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Maxed Out on August 01, 2017, 01:24:59 AM

Nice early example of a 1st generation 9/0 Mo.

The tail plate bearing cup seems to be the first thing to go, as far as the plating.

I believe the bearing was not plated as well as the other parts, but that's just my opinion.

  -Ted
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Donnyboat on August 01, 2017, 03:32:10 AM
Hi Mo, nice find, this is a really good post, I am learning all the time from you good people, I have Just brought a 9/0 & a 10/0, I wont see them in person, for a week or two, I have brought 2 114H reels with standup Penn rods, the last month, I stripped them down & cleaned them up, they both had roller bearings, My mate had a 114, that belonged to his father, I stripped it down on the weekend and restored it, it had brass bearings and the old 3 washer drag, that I have converted to cf, I still need some metal drag washers for it, I will do some resurch for them, as the postage from America is real costly, thank for all this good info, you people are teaching us, cheers Don.
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: Shark Hunter on August 01, 2017, 03:45:09 AM
Great find on that reel Mo.
She is looker. ;)
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: mo65 on August 01, 2017, 02:10:23 PM
   I was fooling around with the camera last night and I think I found an angle that shows a more true representation of my 9/0. I adjusted the focus point to the spool instead of auto-focus...this pic is how she really looks.
Now you can see the "rim" where the line protected the spool, the "plain" tail plate, and that bearing with all the "character". 8)
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: sdlehr on August 01, 2017, 02:49:39 PM
Quote from: Maxed Out on August 01, 2017, 01:24:59 AM

The tail plate bearing cup seems to be the first thing to go, as far as the plating. I believe the bearing was not plated as well as the other parts, but that's just my opinion.

  -Ted
This may, indeed, be true, but that part is also the most prominent and most prone to frictional wear, so it could be a double-whammy for that plating....
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: coastal_dan on August 04, 2017, 12:09:09 PM
Mo - you should feel great about the find now since a well patina'd one on the auction site just went for $361  :o
Title: Re: Penn Senators : from the beginning
Post by: mo65 on August 04, 2017, 04:21:02 PM
   Your right Dan, I feel real good about it now! I'd like to have the handle nut and tail side bearing off that one though. :D