Well, today, Alan looked at my Pro Gear 251. It's essentially a small, aluminum reel with guts like a Jigmaster. To his discovery, someone (I bought the reel used) had changed the guts to a Penn Jigmaster. The main gear was a high gear and Alan wondered is we could convert the drags from a 3+1 to a 5+1. We took out the HT-100s, and Alan selected 5 Carbontex drag washers (I think they are the ones used for Abus) and also thin stainless steel metal washers also from SmoothDrag. (Dimensions will follow). I had to sand out the inner diameter to fit the OD of the new stainless gear sleeve. Well, it work. We were able to get 18# of drag, but the spool or spool shaft started to flex where the spool was rubbing the frame. We backed it off and was able to get 12 of drag without the spool rubbing. Anything higher caused the spool to rub. This will be my deckhand rod reel for albies (if they ever come in close for me to try it out).
I was very impressed with the reel flexing without permanent warping. Reel freespools awesome.
For those who don't know, the Pro Gear 251 is a wider Pro Gear 255. We believe that the Pro Gear 255 should be able to get 15# of drag without the spool rubbing in this configuration since the ability for spool to flex would be lessened with a narrower spooled reel.
Something worth considering if you want to upgrade your drags on your Pro Gear 251, 255, or Jigmaster 505..
Pics will follow as well.
Here's the drag configuration:
(http://i986.photobucket.com/albums/ae348/hawaiiansurfinboy/Pro%20Gear%20251/DragConfiguratoin.jpg)
Here is the SmoothDrag Configuration:
Five #18 Carbontex, 0.5 mm thick (Center was bored out to 11 mm ID)
Three Keyed Washers, 0.9 mm thick
Two Eared Washers, 0.9 mm thick
(http://i986.photobucket.com/albums/ae348/hawaiiansurfinboy/Pro%20Gear%20251/SmoothDragStack2.jpg)
(http://i986.photobucket.com/albums/ae348/hawaiiansurfinboy/Pro%20Gear%20251/SmoothDragStack3.jpg)
The original washers were:
Three HT-100s, 0.8 mm thick
Two Keyed Washers, 1.06 mm thick
One Eared Washer, 1.06 mm thick
One Bevelled Spring Washer
(http://i986.photobucket.com/albums/ae348/hawaiiansurfinboy/Pro%20Gear%20251/OriginalStack1.jpg)
(http://i986.photobucket.com/albums/ae348/hawaiiansurfinboy/Pro%20Gear%20251/OriginalStack.jpg)
The new SmoothDrag configuration should fit in the normal jigmaster main gear with the remaining 2 washers (keyed and carbontex) sitting above the edge of the main gear. This will not be an issue since the eared washer is engaging the main gear.
Yeeeeessssssssssssssssss!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Thank you, Bryan! That's what I want to do [1+5 drag] with my Jigmaster 500, Newell 220, and potentially a Penn 112H. I had figured the Carbontex #21 x 0.5mm washers would go in without modification, though. ??? ???
Awe, you mean that I missed the mark? Oh well, the #18s work more than I need. this is the story behind it.
I brough over my PG251 to upgrade to a stainless gear sleeve. Then, Alan said, too bad that it wasn't a 5 + 1 stack. I said, could it be? And we went searching in his drag and metal washer boxes to see what we could come up with. We discovered that I can actually put a 5 stack replacing the Penn 3 stack. It was a great discovery.
Alan said that the thinner metal washers are from Dawn (SmoothDrag). So, that's the short story.
don't forget, a regular jigmaster/112h main gear will not work. you need the jigmaster 505 main and pinion gear combo because the 505 main gear has a higher lip. also, the 505 pinion gear has a smaller hole and has to be drilled out to accomodate the larger spool shaft in the jigmaster 500 and senator 112h spools.
ugghhhhh! 2:20AM the my wife's father is just now going to bed. poor guy can barely walk and it's my night to watch him.
Thanks for the clarification on that Alan and Bryan. Maybe Dawn will put together 5-stack washer packages for all of the wackos like us who feel the need to obsessively take apart and rebuild our already finely-tuned reels. ??? What do you think Dawn? ;D :-* ;D
We were looking for a 4:1 jigmaster gear yesterday afternoon to see what we could do for the narrower jigmaster gear. I think its possible if you grind down the metal washers to 0.5 mm thick, but without a main gear to play with... Let me take some additional measurements and see what I come up with.
I've got a 4:1 main gear sitting on my bench from when I put the Newell 5:1 gears in. I could mail it to Alan. From my measurements, the top metal washer and maybe part of the top CF washer should be all that sits above the top of the main gear.
Rob
the 5:1 newell will most likely not work. it should have the same dimensions as the 4:1 penn. it is only the 5:1 penn that has the extra "lip." sorry. :-\
The 505 main gear drag depth is 7 mm (0.275").
Althought it is possible for you to get a 5+1 drag stack with a lot of elbow grease in grinding down the metal washers, realistically, you may exceed the drag range for the jigmaster, and thereby, you will probably shred your gears and damage other components. I guess we discovered that with the Pro Gear 251 as well. I'm not converting back though ;D.
Dawn of SmoothDrag has created sets for these reels, except she will be adding carbontex drag washer #21. No boring of the washer is necessary. The cost today is $31.50. Give her a call and she will set you up.
Got my kit yesterday from Dawn, thanks Dawn! Bryan I removed the old three set and put in the 5+1 today. Could barely attach the handle and could only get the star threaded about halfway on. Looked at the pictorial and noticed you had only one belleville. Opened it up and removed one of the two belleville washers. Reassembled and still too long, the spacer is almost covering all the star threads. There was very little wiggle room to tighten down the drag. Maybe a quarter turn at best, till fully buttoned. So, I guess I need to file down the spacer? The configuration looks exactly as shown in your pics. With the top fiber and metal keyed washer just above the lip and, the second eared washer flush at the top of the gear. Should I file the spacer down? I don't own a micrometer or calipers. So, measurment would be from a ruler only.
You went against the adds with the 1+5 drag stack, you just added about 10lb. of pressure to a reel that wasn't designed for it. Anyways, shaving down the spacer sleeve is a good call and is just about all that you could do for now. Replace the belleville, shave the sleeve about a 16th of an inch and if you have the solid star wheel, place anothe belleville right under it, you might not need it dhough.You don't have to be too accurate shaving the sleeve, just get as close as you can, it will work for you. Be carefull on how you fish that reel, try not to fry your gears. :-\
If you look at the pics, my carbontex drag stack does not include the bevel. It's not really needed anyway. The pic with the bevel is the original drag stack.
If you want to keep the bevel, you will need to reduce the height of the spacer by the height of the bevel...also, I hope that there is sufficient clearance between the bevel and the frame.
Ok, Ok, I understand what it is that you are saying. Aren't the belleville washers there for a more gradual application of pressure to the drag stack? Moreover, don't they spread the pressure to the stack more evenly as they flatten out. As opposed to direct pressure to the stack from the center, generated by the force of the spacer, which only applies pressure on the inner most center of the stack? Then it would seem to diminish the benefit of the added washers, due to less pressure to the outer surface area, correct?
It is getting a little late here on the East coast. I don't want to dive in if I can't complete this tonight. So, I think it best that I wait till tomorrow. Otherwise I'll be up to two or three, tinkering, apart, together,
apart, together............... well you know.
I know it will fit with a belleville because that is how I have it now. But, like I said. it ramps up far too fast. Right now there is barely any graduation of drag pressure, I can't back off to zero lbs. That's for sure. If I had to guess it is at least eight lbs at the start. That may be due to the belleville getting squeezed as I tighten the bridge to the frame. At least that is what I've come up with thus far.
Your thoughts Bryan, anybody?
Based on the size of the washer, I don't think that the top metal washer would have a sufficient amount of flex to distribute the pressure to only the center of the top carbon drag washer instead of the entire surface. If in doupt, you could always use the original thicker keyed washer.
bevels - There are a lot of theories behind these when used in start drag reels, an unfortunately, I'm not smart enough to know the physics behind it all. I do know that without the bevels, I can set my drags to 1# when I let my daughter use the reel, 3# when fishing for halibuts, 5# when fishing for rock cod, and up to 15# if needed (but usually stay around 12# max), and that is without bevels in my reel.
On my PG441, I've crack 2 bevels already and just eliminated them altogether. When cracked, it acts as a spacer and has little function, so it was just taken out and replaced with another stainless steel washer.
I'm not sure if this helps or not, or relieves your anxiety about using the reel without the bevel. If it doesn't, I recommend decreasing the height of the spacer based upon the height of the bevel, which I have done to a Penn 113H because the change in the drag stack. Hmm, come to think of it, I could have removed the bevel on the 113H...oh well, what's done is done.
We can call them bevels, cupped washers, belleville and more , these are tension springs. I hear a lot of "not needing them", I personally wouldn't go without them, all of my reels have them and I intend to keep them that way. If it works for you guys without them, great. I just don't see how you can gradually increase the drag , I also believe that they help distribute the pressure on the washers more evenly. Just my opinion!
Just had a PG251 that opted for the 5+1, but unlike my reels, I added a belleville (the original came with a wave type tension washer and I don't like those because many of them rust) for a jigmaster to follow Sal's recommendation. I hand to shave about 4 mm off the height of the spacer and works wonderfully. Though you guys might want to know.
Yeah, I know I have to take apart my PG255 to show my drag stack, but I just added another thing to my PG255.
(http://i986.photobucket.com/albums/ae348/hawaiiansurfinboy/AlanTani/IMG_8000.jpg)
(http://i986.photobucket.com/albums/ae348/hawaiiansurfinboy/AlanTani/IMG_8001.jpg)
It's Alan's SS arm and Pete's Spinner Handle. The spinner handle is found here: http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=158.0
Here the comparison pics:
(http://i986.photobucket.com/albums/ae348/hawaiiansurfinboy/AlanTani/IMG_8002.jpg)
(http://i986.photobucket.com/albums/ae348/hawaiiansurfinboy/AlanTani/IMG_8003.jpg)
(http://i986.photobucket.com/albums/ae348/hawaiiansurfinboy/AlanTani/IMG_8004.jpg)
If anyone is interested in this set-up for their jigmasters, PGs 251/255,..., let me know. $36 for the arm with the spinner or 2/0 handle or $40 for the arm with the 4/0 handle, and $46 for the arm with the 6/0 handle.
Nice reel Bryan - might need to upgrade my 282 handle now I see that ;)
Cheers, Justin
That's a nice looking handle Bryan. I wonder if the machinist that he uses could come up with something similar for the handle on my SS spinners. Great craftsmanship.
Hi Justin,
Unfortunately, the PG262 has a different mounting hole than the PG255. So the are will not work on your reel. :(
Bryan
hi bryan! will the arm with spinner handle fit these reels; PG 541, CS 550, 112H and 113H? thanks!
Quote from: Mel B on July 30, 2012, 02:32:59 PM
hi bryan! will the arm with spinner handle fit these reels; PG 541, CS 550, 112H and 113H? thanks!
Sorry Mel, I though I responded with my phone, but I guess it didn't accept.
The arm with the spinner handle will fit the 112H only. Alan has http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=156.0 that will fit the PG541 and Penn's 113H. I think Alan some SS ones that I will post later under a different heading so not to detract from this subject.
The CS550 uses a different gear sleeve altogether. I haven't had a chance to compare it to other reels out there. The securement opening is the same for the Albacore specials, Wahoo specials, and all CS series reels.
Bryan
Any chance of getting the photos back up?
Photos are back up. Probably an issue with PhotoBucket.
Quote from: Bryan Young on January 10, 2011, 05:55:55 AM
Here's the drag configuration:
(http://i986.photobucket.com/albums/ae348/hawaiiansurfinboy/Pro%20Gear%20251/DragConfiguratoin.jpg)
Here is the SmoothDrag Configuration:
Five #18 Carbontex, 0.5 mm thick (Center was bored out to 11 mm ID)
Three Keyed Washers, 0.9 mm thick
Two Eared Washers, 0.9 mm thick
(http://i986.photobucket.com/albums/ae348/hawaiiansurfinboy/Pro%20Gear%20251/SmoothDragStack2.jpg)
(http://i986.photobucket.com/albums/ae348/hawaiiansurfinboy/Pro%20Gear%20251/SmoothDragStack3.jpg)
The original washers were:
Three HT-100s, 0.8 mm thick
Two Keyed Washers, 1.06 mm thick
One Eared Washer, 1.06 mm thick
One Bevelled Spring Washer
(http://i986.photobucket.com/albums/ae348/hawaiiansurfinboy/Pro%20Gear%20251/OriginalStack1.jpg)
(http://i986.photobucket.com/albums/ae348/hawaiiansurfinboy/Pro%20Gear%20251/OriginalStack.jpg)
The new SmoothDrag configuration should fit in the normal jigmaster main gear with the remaining 2 washers (keyed and carbontex) sitting above the edge of the main gear. This will not be an issue since the eared washer is engaging the main gear.
Good stuff!
Does anyone have the part # for the Bevelled spring washer shown here in Bryan's post at the top of the drag stack? I can only find the tension Spring washer (8-60) which is not the same thing.
Thanks, Keith
Hi Keith, unfortunately, I don't have a part number. The Belleville is 10.25x20-23x1.75 mm if that helps. I may need to order a bunch from McMaster Carr for these instances. Let me see if I have an extra one.
Bryan, I also need to order some, do you have the actual numbers from McMaster catalog? Maybe on your receipt? Thanks!
Quote from: Bryan Young on March 19, 2013, 01:58:41 AM
Hi Keith, unfortunately, I don't have a part number. The Belleville is 10.25x20-23x1.75 mm if that helps. I may need to order a bunch from McMaster Carr for these instances. Let me see if I have an extra one.
Right on Bryan...I'm working on a few, so if you find the #, that would be cool.
Thanks!
So I took apart my Newell 322, because I knew I had one of these in there...
(http://i452.photobucket.com/albums/qq241/KeithK/P3181930_zps31e57045.jpg)
Here it is: http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-disc-springs/=lxtz8x
Mine is:
-ID--.405 in
-OD--.82 in
-Thickness--.035 in
-Height--.0625 in
For Stainless it looks like part # 9713K425
Just ordered...
Thanks Keith.
Bryan I was hopeing you could help me with a question. A buddy of mine has a pro gear, I told him I would purchase it but upon inspection it has a graphite spool. It kinda looks like a 545 but has no markings or model numbers.
Ihave never seen a pg with a graphite spool. It must have been taken from a Newell. Any pics of the reel? Please post it.
I will get some pictures when I see it again. I was kinda hesitant to buy it scince the spool isnt aluminum and there are a couple of penn parts on it. Kinda looks like a franken reel. Thanks for the help though
The old pg reels used their own parts with a penn parts as direct replacements. Again, not sure of the graphite spool. I'm sure it must be from a Newell.
I did my PG 251 with the thin metal washers from Dawn and drag washers cut from 1 mm Carbontex sheet and the top spring washer fit just fine with no problem on the star drag assembly. I use a gasket punch kit to cut most washers now. It works great for the 4/0 size washer and smaller. 1" OD or smaller drag washers. I hammer out the OD of the washer and cut out the ID with a Dremel while holding them between the metal washers.
(http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa331/handi2541/IMG_1886.jpg) (http://s1192.photobucket.com/user/handi2541/media/IMG_1886.jpg.html)
Reel clamp question for a PG255: I've hot rodded a couple of PG255's I got on that auction site. Added Bryan's 5+1 gear set, old Penn 4:1 steel gears, and the SS double dog bridge and AT's SS gear sleeve. Only problem is that I can't seem to find a clamp that works for a PG255. The distance between the studs/posts is little less than the standard distance between posts on small reels (almost exactly an inch, in this case), so the general small clamps that would fit a Penn 146 or 501 are a bit too big and definitely don't fit. I would really appreciate it if anyone has any suggestions. Thanks!
Mikes sold me a Tiburon clamp with oval holes that fit my Pacifica 2000 perfect. I bet they could sort you out.
Ron
Quote from: gman on June 06, 2014, 10:47:30 PM
Reel clamp question for a PG255: I've hot rodded a couple of PG255's I got on that auction site. Added Bryan's 5+1 gear set, old Penn 4:1 steel gears, and the SS double dog bridge and AT's SS gear sleeve. Only problem is that I can't seem to find a clamp that works for a PG255. The distance between the studs/posts is little less than the standard distance between posts on small reels (almost exactly an inch, in this case), so the general small clamps that would fit a Penn 146 or 501 are a bit too big and definitely don't fit. I would really appreciate it if anyone has any suggestions. Thanks!
I too cannot find clamps. And a couple of my PG255s have reel seat without clamp mounting holes. What to do, what to do...
I think I may have a solution though that I will be looking into. Shimano TN16N reel seat clamps are very narrow and I just picked up one from Pauline to play with. I will look at the seat to see if it fits and will let you know.
For a clamp that fits the narrow width of the studs on a PG 255, I've just found a solution that works for me: An Accurate model C-51 clamp, which fits for example a Penn 146 squidder, is narrow enough for the PG 255 studs with sufficient room--just barely--for the clamp screws.
Quote from: Bryan Young on January 08, 2011, 05:06:57 AM
Well, today, Alan looked at my Pro Gear 251. It's essentially a small, aluminum reel with guts like a Jigmaster. To his discovery, someone (I bought the reel used) had changed the guts to a Penn Jigmaster. The main gear was a high gear and Alan wondered is we could convert the drags from a 3+1 to a 5+1. We took out the HT-100s, and Alan selected 5 Carbontex drag washers (I think they are the ones used for Abus) and also thin stainless steel metal washers also from SmoothDrag. (Dimensions will follow). I had to sand out the inner diameter to fit the OD of the new stainless gear sleeve. Well, it work. We were able to get 18# of drag, but the spool or spool shaft started to flex where the spool was rubbing the frame. We backed it off and was able to get 12 of drag without the spool rubbing. Anything higher caused the spool to rub. This will be my deckhand rod reel for albies (if they ever come in close for me to try it out).
I was very impressed with the reel flexing without permanent warping. Reel freespools awesome.
For those who don't know, the Pro Gear 251 is a wider Pro Gear 255. We believe that the Pro Gear 255 should be able to get 15# of drag without the spool rubbing in this configuration since the ability for spool to flex would be lessened with a narrower spooled reel.
Something worth considering if you want to upgrade your drags on your Pro Gear 251, 255, or Jigmaster 505..
Pics will follow as well.
Hello Bryan,
I saw in this post you talking about higher drag #'s making the pro gear 251's spool flexing.
In the larger pg441, do you know if the spool flexes in these at really high drag #'s like you
can get using an insert drag and all SS internals? I have your drag kits in two 441's, but
am thinking about putting in all SS internals including DD bridge, and then adding Pro
Challenger insert drag kits, but don't want to do it if I'll not be able to run my drags at
25-30#'s.
Thank you,
Darin
Quote from: Darin Crofton on October 05, 2018, 04:32:27 PM
Quote from: Bryan Young on January 08, 2011, 05:06:57 AM
Well, today, Alan looked at my Pro Gear 251. It's essentially a small, aluminum reel with guts like a Jigmaster. To his discovery, someone (I bought the reel used) had changed the guts to a Penn Jigmaster. The main gear was a high gear and Alan wondered is we could convert the drags from a 3+1 to a 5+1. We took out the HT-100s, and Alan selected 5 Carbontex drag washers (I think they are the ones used for Abus) and also thin stainless steel metal washers also from SmoothDrag. (Dimensions will follow). I had to sand out the inner diameter to fit the OD of the new stainless gear sleeve. Well, it work. We were able to get 18# of drag, but the spool or spool shaft started to flex where the spool was rubbing the frame. We backed it off and was able to get 12 of drag without the spool rubbing. Anything higher caused the spool to rub. This will be my deckhand rod reel for albies (if they ever come in close for me to try it out).
I was very impressed with the reel flexing without permanent warping. Reel freespools awesome.
For those who don't know, the Pro Gear 251 is a wider Pro Gear 255. We believe that the Pro Gear 255 should be able to get 15# of drag without the spool rubbing in this configuration since the ability for spool to flex would be lessened with a narrower spooled reel.
Something worth considering if you want to upgrade your drags on your Pro Gear 251, 255, or Jigmaster 505..
Pics will follow as well.
Hello Bryan,
I saw in this post you talking about higher drag #'s making the pro gear 251's spool flexing.
In the larger pg441, do you know if the spool flexes in these at really high drag #'s like you
can get using an insert drag and all SS internals? I have your drag kits in two 441's, but
am thinking about putting in all SS internals including DD bridge, and then adding Pro
Challenger insert drag kits, but don't want to do it if I'll not be able to run my drags at
25-30#'s.
Thank you,
Darin
Hi Darin,
My PG441 is stock so I don't know if the spool will flex at higher drag numbers. Sorry.
Bryan
Quote from: Bryan Young on October 05, 2018, 04:37:35 PM
Quote from: Darin Crofton on October 05, 2018, 04:32:27 PM
Quote from: Bryan Young on January 08, 2011, 05:06:57 AM
Well, today, Alan looked at my Pro Gear 251. It's essentially a small, aluminum reel with guts like a Jigmaster. To his discovery, someone (I bought the reel used) had changed the guts to a Penn Jigmaster. The main gear was a high gear and Alan wondered is we could convert the drags from a 3+1 to a 5+1. We took out the HT-100s, and Alan selected 5 Carbontex drag washers (I think they are the ones used for Abus) and also thin stainless steel metal washers also from SmoothDrag. (Dimensions will follow). I had to sand out the inner diameter to fit the OD of the new stainless gear sleeve. Well, it work. We were able to get 18# of drag, but the spool or spool shaft started to flex where the spool was rubbing the frame. We backed it off and was able to get 12 of drag without the spool rubbing. Anything higher caused the spool to rub. This will be my deckhand rod reel for albies (if they ever come in close for me to try it out).
I was very impressed with the reel flexing without permanent warping. Reel freespools awesome.
For those who don't know, the Pro Gear 251 is a wider Pro Gear 255. We believe that the Pro Gear 255 should be able to get 15# of drag without the spool rubbing in this configuration since the ability for spool to flex would be lessened with a narrower spooled reel.
Something worth considering if you want to upgrade your drags on your Pro Gear 251, 255, or Jigmaster 505..
Pics will follow as well.
Hello Bryan,
I saw in this post you talking about higher drag #'s making the pro gear 251's spool flexing.
In the larger pg441, do you know if the spool flexes in these at really high drag #'s like you
can get using an insert drag and all SS internals? I have your drag kits in two 441's, but
am thinking about putting in all SS internals including DD bridge, and then adding Pro
Challenger insert drag kits, but don't want to do it if I'll not be able to run my drags at
25-30#'s.
Thank you,
Darin
Hi Darin,
My PG441 is stock so I don't know if the spool will flex at higher drag numbers. Sorry.
Bryan
Thanks for the reply, Bryan.
Well, I'm going to let you know the answer soon, might as well try it out and be the guinea pig...
Hi, what's the best Clamp Studs to use for the PG 251? I found a nice custom clamp online but I do not have the studs.