Reel Repair by Alan Tani

Conventional and Bait Casting Reel Rebuild Tutorials and Questions => Penn Tutorials and Questions => Topic started by: mo65 on July 09, 2016, 11:46:26 PM

Title: Real World 309 Upgrades
Post by: mo65 on July 09, 2016, 11:46:26 PM
   Ahh...the lowly 309. Scorned by many, but after 50 years it's still in production, so somebody must like 'em! I've never been a huge 309 fan, I prefer the 210, but in my neck of the woods I'm in the minority. These reels are very popular with catfishermen here. Most of that popularity is due to it's price point, there ain't a whole lotta cash flowin' in these here hills...:D My goal here is to create an upgraded reel, within it's design limitations, at a price the average guy can afford. We're going to keep this project under $100...reel included!

  We'll be swapping out the old chrome spool for a better casting aluminum spool.(yes...we cast these things) We'll also be upgrading the drag stack by adding Bryan's under gear setup and new HT-100s. This will change our three stack to the Newell style four stack. We don't want to create enough drag power to twist the frame, just to add a few pounds of "headroom". This way setting up at 10lbs. of drag should be smoother than if it were maxed out at 10lbs. Last but not least, we'll add a 98-60AT 2nd generation stainless steel gear sleeve. This piece will cost more than I paid for the reel...but it's the anchor of the whole project. Not only is it required to use the under gear set...it will also keep the handle tight.

  These modifications will offer the best bang for the buck without stressing your reel. If you're new to reel maintenance, you'll find Alan's 209 tutorial very helpful with disassembly/reassembly:  http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=659.0  Here's the total cost of this project:

    Reel------------------------$15.00
    Spool-----------------------$13.50
    HT-100 Drag Washers------$3.75
    Under Gear Set-------------$6.40
    SS Gear Sleeve------------$32.00
                                          $70.65*

*Note that I'm $30 under budget, so if you can't find a 309 for $15 don't sweat it. They sell for $30-$40 every day on eBay.


  These are the replaced drag washers and gear sleeve shown over the new components. I used stock brass metal washers, they will work fine for this reel's power range, and will keep us within budget. Just reuse your reel's washers...as long as they aren't damaged.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/4101/34826510923_a3f7983f6a_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/V4uYmT)

  Here's a closer look at the gear sleeves, showing how the new ss sleeve is keyed all the way to the ratchet. This allows the ss keyed washer to serve as a load bearer while the carbontex washer adds a fourth friction disc. The drag feels very smooth, and definitely increased a few pounds. At only $6.40...this under gear set is perfect for this project. Sheer genius!

(https://live.staticflickr.com/4089/35505025861_d1c28f3e69_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/W6sxdi)

  After degreasing and cleaning the gears I was happy to see both the main and the pinion were in great shape. Steel is nice...but if yours are brass they'll do fine for this project.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/4100/34826503933_af73e93bd6_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/V4uWhn)

   The gear stack reassembled on the new gear sleeve. The added height of the under gear set made the wave washer rub the side plate at minimum setting. The correct thing to do would be to dremel just a tad off the inside of the side plate, but I took the easy way out, just chuck the wave washer. The sad thing is the adjustment range feels about the same with or without the darn thing. :-\

(https://live.staticflickr.com/4044/34826498053_a9bf7afd25_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/V4uUwZ)

  The finished reel with the replaced parts.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/4216/34826504363_c17e27b3c7_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/V4uWpM)
Title: Re: Real World 309 Upgrades
Post by: foakes on July 09, 2016, 11:55:22 PM
Good planning on that LW, Mo --

Plus, you have some parts left over for other reels.

Best,

Fred

Title: Re: Real World 309 Upgrades
Post by: Bryan Young on July 10, 2016, 03:51:29 AM
I think you have some washers out of order. The washer set that can with the gear sleeve is intended to go under the main gear. Gear sleeve then thin stainless steel washer then Carbontex washer then main gear.  This will give you a full drag surface under the main gear.

See http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=13041.0

Hope this helps you sort it all our.
Title: Re: Real World 309 Upgrades
Post by: mo65 on July 10, 2016, 10:52:00 AM
Quote from: Bryan Young on July 10, 2016, 03:51:29 AM
The washer set that came with the gear sleeve is intended to go under the main gear. Gear sleeve then thin stainless steel washer then Carbontex washer then main gear.  This will give you a full drag surface under the main gear.

Yep...got 'er set up just like this...under the gear. 8)
Title: Re: Real World 309 Upgrades
Post by: Bryan Young on July 10, 2016, 04:05:32 PM
Good. This picture I can see there's the HT-100 and the Carbontex and the thin stainless steel washer on top.

(http://i1207.photobucket.com/albums/bb470/mo655/009_1.jpg)
Title: Re: Real World 309 Upgrades
Post by: mo65 on July 10, 2016, 04:44:09 PM
Quote from: Bryan Young on July 10, 2016, 04:05:32 PM
Good.  I can see there's the HT-100 and the Carbontex and the thin stainless steel washer on top.

That's the eared brass, HT-100, keyed brass, and tension washer...photo must be distorting as it crosses the country...;) :D ;D
Title: Re: Real World 309 Upgrades
Post by: mo65 on July 10, 2016, 06:52:19 PM
I got a chance to mess around with this reel a bit today. Everything works real nice, put a scale on the line and pulled at 8lb...felt real smooth...jacked it up to 12lb... still rolled off like butter. I'll probably never crank it down farther than 10lb. so we're good. I took it out back for a few test casts and it passed that test too. Now to get her down to the river. 8)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4nFru3e1gw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4nFru3e1gw)
Title: Re: Real World 309 Upgrades
Post by: Decker on October 11, 2017, 03:35:02 PM
Great tutorial, Mo!   I know this is an old thread, but time never seems to be a barrier on AT.com  ;D

I know you have upgraded a Penn 210 as well.  The gear ratio of the 309 is published as 2.8:1 and the 210 is 4:1, yet they both use the 500 main gear.  I guess the difference is in the pinion, and wonder if the pinions could be swapped.  Any idea?

Another similarity is the seat (30-66).  I have several reels that use that seat because I like the width (99-width Jigmaster-ish variants, 145 Squidder, Senator 112H).  The newer version of the 30-66 is stainless.  I wonder what benefit the benefit of a Newell 229 stand might be...  and if there is a Newell bar that might take the place of the posts in the back.

Is there any reason you would favor one reel over the other?

Title: Re: Real World 309 Upgrades
Post by: mo65 on October 11, 2017, 04:27:42 PM
Quote from: Decker on October 11, 2017, 03:35:02 PM
Great tutorial, Mo!

I know you have upgraded a Penn 210 as well.  The gear ratio of the 309 is published as 2.8:1 and the 210 is 4:1, yet they both use the 500 main gear.  I guess the difference is in the pinion, and wonder if the pinions could be swapped.  Any idea?

Is there any reason you would favor one reel over the other?

   Thanks Joe. Yes, the difference is the pinion, and I don't think they'll swap. As far as favoring one reel over the other, I prefer the 210's speed when fishing in heavy snag country. I can hold my rod up high and burn the handle to stay above the snags. For boat fishing, the 309 has the edge, as it's slower gearing translates to better lifting power. 8)
Title: Re: Real World 309 Upgrades
Post by: Decker on October 11, 2017, 04:39:58 PM
Pardon my Dr. Frankenstein rant, but I was thinking (maybe a little too much ::)) that one of the high-ratio jigmaster main gears (5-505 or pro-challenger 5:1) might go into  these two reels... hmm.

A 5:1 ratio 210 would be sweet for deep and light sea bottom fishing... get the rig up fast where there's no need for heavy drag.    A faster 309 would be something like a 210.   

The brainstorm will soon pass :o
Title: Re: Real World 309 Upgrades
Post by: mo65 on October 11, 2017, 05:43:43 PM
Quote from: Decker on October 11, 2017, 04:39:58 PM
Pardon my Dr. Frankenstein rant, but I was thinking (maybe a little too much ::)) that one of the high-ratio jigmaster main gears (5-505 or pro-challenger 5:1) might go into  these two reels... hmm.

   This I've never tried personally, but I'd say if there's a stumbling block, it would again be that pinion. The 210 uses a #13-140 pinion and a #5-500 main, so I'd think Pro Challenger's PC-JM500N main gear should mesh with the stock 210 pinion. Maybe ya better ask Sal about this one. :-\
Title: Re: Real World 309 Upgrades
Post by: thorhammer on October 11, 2017, 06:01:05 PM
dang it son, I just cleared the bench for a rod project. now I gotta take apart a perfectly good 309 and 505.
Title: Re: Real World 309 Upgrades
Post by: Decker on October 11, 2017, 06:11:48 PM
Quote from: mo65 on October 11, 2017, 05:43:43 PM

  This I've never tried personally, but I'd say if there's a stumbling block, it would again be that pinion. The 210 uses a #13-140 pinion and a #5-500 main, so I'd think Pro Challenger's PC-JM500N main gear should mesh with the stock 210 pinion. Maybe ya better ask Sal about this one. :-\


Thanks for indulging me, guys.   I don't bother Sal with with my daydreaming, Rube Goldberg ideas ;D

Quote from: thorhammer on October 11, 2017, 06:01:05 PM
dang it son, I just cleared the bench for a rod project. now I gotta take apart a perfectly good 309 and 505.

Hope that's a good thing...  I won't have a chance try it for some time  :o
Title: Re: Real World 309 Upgrades
Post by: mhc on October 12, 2017, 09:02:31 AM
I'm pretty sure the Pro Challenger jigmaster main gears will only work with his pinions. A PC 4.8:1 set should fit in the 210 if you replace both gears, but they wont work the 309. The 13-85 pinion is a larger diameter than the 13-140 or PC jigmaster pinions which means the main gear would need to be moved closer to the pinion to mesh properly. I think the inner bore of the 13-85 pinion in the 309 is a larger diameter than the jigmaster or squidder pinions as well so if you did change the bridge to bring the main closer to the pinion, you would also need to either modify the spool shaft by reducing the diameter or use a different spool.

Back to the 210, I will put a 4.8:1 PC or Newell set in a 210 after I finish the 10 I'm working on, and a couple of extra bits for my 501N.

Mike
Title: Re: Real World 309 Upgrades
Post by: Decker on October 12, 2017, 12:30:24 PM
Sounds great, Mike!   Thanks for bringing this thread back to reality.  You're doing some true pioneering with the 10 cut down.  That "Squidmaster 210" (http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=7057.0) is really something, isn't it?   Can't wait to see what you come up with next!    /Joe 
Title: Re: Real World 309 Upgrades
Post by: Keta on October 12, 2017, 01:55:39 PM
There is not many main/pinion gear combinations that are compatible.

The Pearless 9, 109, 209 and 309 reels were the main Penn reels I saw and worked on for many years with a few Senators and Mariners.  I never liked the 309 as it was to big for salmon and not quite enough for mid to large Pacific halibut.  I never saw a place for one for my needs and used Penn 10 and 210 for salmon and 349H for halibut.
Title: Re: Real World 309 Upgrades
Post by: sundancer on October 19, 2017, 03:08:07 PM
Gents

Great Thread.  As I just acquired 2 309's in good shape for free, i am thinking of beefing at least one up.

To continue with this Thread...

On the Frame stiffness issue, can't a Reel Seat, reshaped by grinding out the Seat Tabs, be used to support the Side Plates?

i am thinking replacing the Rear Bar for the bottom Screw and drilling a new top hole for the top Seat Screw. 

Seems reshaping a Reel Seat and then powder coating it would be relatively easy and cheap.

Thoughts?
Steve
Title: Re: Real World 309 Upgrades
Post by: Decker on October 19, 2017, 03:12:48 PM
Quote from: sundancer on October 19, 2017, 03:08:07 PM
Gents

Great Thread.  As I just acquired 2 309's in good shape for free, i am thinking of beefing at least one up.

To continue with this Thread...

On the Frame stiffness issue, can't a Reel Seat, reshaped by grinding out the Seat Tabs, be used to support the Side Plates?

i am thinking replacing the Rear Bar for the bottom Screw and drilling a new top hole for the top Seat Screw. 

Seems reshaping a Reel Seat and then powder coating it would be relatively easy and cheap.

Thoughts?
Steve

Steve, interesting but hard to visualize...  Could you draw a rough picture?   I won't be the one to answer you, but I think it will clarify your intention.   /Joe
Title: Re: Real World 309 Upgrades
Post by: sundancer on October 19, 2017, 04:18:11 PM
Decker

A little difficult right now, but if you see a picture of a Reel Seat, grind off the Tabs where the Rod attaches.  Maybe even grind to lighten the whole Seat a bit.

Attach the Seat to the back of the Reel by using the Rear Bar Screws/Holes and 2 new Holes for the top of the Seat Screws.

I will try to edit a picture later

Steve
Title: Re: Real World 309 Upgrades
Post by: handi2 on October 19, 2017, 08:06:46 PM
How will attach to a rod if the tabs are ground off as you stated?
Title: Re: Real World 309 Upgrades
Post by: Crow on October 19, 2017, 08:28:16 PM
I think he means an ADDITIONAL reel stand....used only as a "spacer bar"
Title: Re: Real World 309 Upgrades
Post by: sundancer on October 20, 2017, 09:47:03 AM
Crow

thanks for clearing it up.

my point/question is that discussions seem to indicate that the Frame of the 309 is a weak point.  Rather than go to the expense with a Newell, if it exists, why not just modify another Seat to crossbrace the Reel by grinding off the Tabs where the Rod mounts and maybe a little profiling to make it look nicer and not just a cobbled up Seat?

Looking from the Handle side, install it the ~9 o'clock position using the existing Bar Screw/Hole and a new one made appropriately higher up.  This should work for cheapskates like me. 

I might have an Reel in bad shape around here where i can steal the Seat.........

Thanks
Steve
Title: Re: Real World 309 Upgrades
Post by: mo65 on October 20, 2017, 02:06:48 PM
   If you can find an inexpensive/effective way to reduce frame flex on the 309 sundancer, lots of naysayers will have to find a new reel to chastise! 8)
Title: Re: Real World 309 Upgrades
Post by: sundancer on October 20, 2017, 02:30:42 PM
 :D :D :D :D
Title: Re: Real World 309 Upgrades
Post by: sundancer on October 20, 2017, 04:42:02 PM
OK

whats up????

if you look at the schematics for the 66 and the 309, they list the 30-66 Stand for the part number.  The Picture though are of 2 different Parts.

the 309 has holes for a Rod Clamp and the 66 'lighter duty' type, like on the 285, etc.

?????
Steve
Title: Re: Real World 309 Upgrades
Post by: mo65 on October 20, 2017, 11:20:37 PM
   
Quote from: sundancer on October 20, 2017, 04:42:02 PM
if you look at the schematics for the 66 and the 309, they list the 30-66 Stand for the part number.  The Picture though are of 2 different Parts

   If you're referring to the schematics at Scott's, yes, the stand pictured in the LB66 schematic is wrong. They're showing a #30-65 stand, but list it correctly as the #30-66.