Part I:
So, I have had this old 9/0 kicking around in the shop for years and years, for no particular reason. I have come across it from time to time, and been reminded to maybe someday do something interesting with it. I thought that making a two-speed is something somebody should look into someday. So eventually I did.
I noticed that the reel is in fact fairly build-friendly, with a fair amount of room inside for alternative mechanical embodiments. It couldn't be impossible to poke some other stuff in there.
So I made a few sleeves, some bridges, a bunch of gears... It is just so much easier to have a bunch of parts to work with from the beginning, rather than disassembling and reassembling the same stuff over and over. This way, you can try some ideas, make some prototypes, and if it doesn't work quite right, you can just move on with a new one. A mechanical bookmark; you can always go back and see where you were at earlier.
Also made a fixture for machining the sideplate. Very handy. Reversible too, so either side of the plate can be worked on if need be.
This is an automatic two-speed, that downshifts automatically depending on line load, or how hard one cranks. There is a manual version in the works too; it is there in the background somewhere. The automatic version is much easier though, so I thought I'd just go with that for the time being, and get back to the manual version later. It is much more mechanically complex, so I will save that for a rainy day.
(There is also a stainless tube in there somewhere; i thought i would use it to make one-piece frame. Nowhere near as arduously as Rothmars frame though. I will take the easy way out and just machine the silly thing.)
I was able to fit a fairly substantial drag in there. I don't know how much, and didn't bother with the details too much at this stage.
To be continued in part II
Part II:
Right, so the gears and all fit quite nicely into the sideplate, so the outside of the reel is changed very little, with the exception of an additional bulge to the east of the original gears. This will in the future be covered by a machined plastic piece i think. For the time being I just used a stainless one. I also made a stainless cover over the gear hole too. Just thought it was nice, because it covers up a ball bearing I put in there, to support the gear sleeve. No need to really, since the Senators have done just fine without them, but what the hell, right... so there it is.
I don't recall the gear ratios right now... High gear is as it originally was though.
Well, that about that then... Gotta go. Have other stuff to do today besides type.
.
I'm speechless!!!....
As Sal said! Robert, I dream of doing this, but don't have the means or skill.
Thanks for sharing your second to none imagination and execution with us. It's very inspiring!
Oh boy do you have our attention now........lit up like sailfish on a ballyhoo......
Wow 😳😳😳😳😳 🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓. You got our attention.
Looks very similar to Abu's auto 2-Speed design (which I have yet been able to understand). This is something that I can see would be great in the 6/0s, and larger. Very interesting.
Extraordinary - your work never ceases to amaze. You have certainly achieved your understated objective "to maybe someday do something interesting with it."
I want one! I must have one! Amazing engineering. Next a aluminum side cover could be made on a CNC machine.
Very nice!
Holy Cow!!! :o
This Man has some Skills! :P
Amazing. I don't understand the design, but it looks really good!
Sid
Robert, I knew you had some skills but that's just ridiculous. Who ever thought of turning a 9/0 into a two speed?! You gotta let us know how it fishes.
I have to pick my face off the floor now... Wow!
Dom
A Penn Star-Drag 2 Speed Beastmaster, set up and brought to you by Robert Janssen, in 9/0 size!
Fantastic workmanship and thought, Robert.
Best,
Fred
Wow!!
:o :o :o :o :o
A masterpiece in the making.. to be sure.
I can see it now...
'9/0 2-Speed Converstion Kit = Priceless'
Incredible!
Mike,
U.K.
:o...... ;D...... 8)
That's! Uhm! Remarkable.
Do a 4/0!
I want one I want one I want one.
Wow that's something I only dream about. Man you got skills, need to know how it performs. Looks great though.
Is it possible to get a brief, but more detailed explanation about automatic shifting " based on line load and how hard one cranks"? Thanks.
Gfish
Spectacular work Robert! Webster's Dictionary doesn't even have a word to describe talent like that!
....................Lou
Quote from: Gfish on September 22, 2016, 09:19:13 PM
Is it possible to get a brief, but more detailed explanation about automatic shifting " based on line load and how hard one cranks"? Thanks.
Gfish
Seems simple to me... increase the drag/load and the top main gear will stop spinning.. in essance 'shifting' into low. Conversely, decrease the drag, and the high speed gear will grab the drive shaft. Maybe?
DUDE!
X10 what everyone else has said.....wow! Bill
:o :o :o :o You sir, are one one step from deity. :o :o :o :o
Quote from: broadway on September 22, 2016, 04:33:40 PM
Robert, I knew you had some skills but that's just ridiculous. Who ever thought of turning a 9/0 into a two speed?! You gotta let us know how it fishes.
I have to pick my face off the floor now... Wow!
Dom
Ditto...Dominick
Yeah! Outstanding! So, when do the kits for this 2 speed conversion hit the shelves! You have SKILLS!
Quote from: Bryan Young on September 22, 2016, 11:29:57 AM
Looks very similar to Abu's auto 2-Speed design (which I have yet been able to understand).
Yes, exactly. This is really just another version of Abu's automatic, so i don't get any credit for actually inventing anything this time.
Quote from: Tightlines666 on September 22, 2016, 09:53:20 PM
Quote from: Gfish on September 22, 2016, 09:19:13 PM
Is it possible to get a brief, but more detailed explanation about automatic shifting " based on line load and how hard one cranks"? Thanks.
Gfish
Seems simple to me... increase the drag/load and the top main gear will stop spinning.. in essance 'shifting' into low. Conversely, decrease the drag, and the high speed gear will grab the drive shaft. Maybe?
Yes, that is right. In one version of this automatic transmission the point at which the gears change is dictated by adjusting a seperate dial. In another version the shift point is determined by default as a certain percentage of whatever the drag is set at. I found the former a bit too fiddly in practice, even if adjustable is a good thing sometimes. So i went with the standard default version here. No sense in making things more complicated than they need to be. (imagine if say, the gear ratios in your car were adjustable... how many people would actually be interested in understanding and fiddling around with that? What for? What a headache.)
So, even if i have previously been enamored by the magical enigma of automatic shifting, i can really see the virtues of a standard, manual gear shift here. It is as said much more mechanically complicated, so it takes some more doing. Maybe later.
.
Robert, I don't see a notch in the pinion. How does it engage the spool?
Sid
Wow!!! That is amazing! When are the upgrades going to be available? ;D ;D You have raised the bar on the Penn mods!
Bob
I'm in awe.
If it's mechanically cheaper to make the 2 speed auto shift...why aren't all two speeds done that way?
From a manufacturers perspective, I mean.
Quote from: Tightlines666 on September 22, 2016, 09:53:20 PM
Quote from: Gfish on September 22, 2016, 09:19:13 PM
Is it possible to get a brief, but more detailed explanation about automatic shifting " based on line load and how hard one cranks"? Thanks.
Gfish
Seems simple to me... increase the drag/load and the top main gear will stop spinning.. in essance 'shifting' into low. Conversely, decrease the drag, and the high speed gear will grab the drive shaft. Maybe?
I still cannot picture it. I must be missing something obvious.
Bryan, I figured it out last night. The transmission gears are fixed wrt one another. The main gears are not, but they operate under the same drag pressure. At low torque the lower, larger main gear drives both the pinion and the transmission gears. At higher torque the lower main gear slips, but the upper gear takes over, driving the transmission gear and the lower main gear, and thus the pinion. Hope that helps.
I stickied this topic! Great thread!
Sid
Quote from: sdlehr on September 24, 2016, 12:35:55 PM
Bryan, I figured it out last night. The transmission gears are fixed wrt one another. The main gears are not, but they operate under the same drag pressure. At low torque the lower, larger main gear drives both the pinion and the transmission gears. At higher torque the lower main gear slips, but the upper gear takes over, driving the transmission gear and the lower main gear, and thus the pinion. Hope that helps.
I stickied this topic! Great thread!
Sid
That's it.
Same drag pressure applied to both, but torque dictates which gear will drive the pinion.
Nice work Sid!
:)
Thanks John. I wasn't going to sleep last night until I figured it out!
Sid
So the drag pressure for the high speed gear should have a lower drag resistance than the low gear drag
Using identical drag materials, the drag with the greater surface area will have the greater resistance. There are several variables in this equation, the drag pressure and the torques on the different gear ratios. It makes my head hurt.
Sid
This is where the truly imaginative mind of an engineer would come in handy? I'd have to hold it in my hands and look at it while asking a million and twelve questions of the builder to grasp it fully. I'm going to have to look at some schematics. Another research project yay, maybe after I'm done upgrading my boat, finish with installing the wife's new doors, rebuild my spare coolers that have been on the floor in front of my workbench for three months. Maybe next April? Whatever inspired this, my hat is off to you for carrying it through to reality. You must have been playing with the idea in your head for some time.
Oh, I get it how it works now.... finally. Still can't imagine how one would actually design and build it at home. This is like the pinnacle of reel modifications. Robert, we'll never be able to see inside your head but would you honor us with a quick snap shot of your milling workshop.
-steve
There are glimpses of it here Steve....
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=5123.0
But would love to see a more complete view of Roberts shop for sure.
Quote from: mizmo67 on September 23, 2016, 05:16:02 PM
If it's mechanically cheaper to make the 2 speed auto shift...why aren't all two speeds done that way?
From a manufacturers perspective, I mean.
That is a pretty good question, really. It is kind of twofold.
Not all manufacturing is about frugality. A more expensive part may well be chosen over another less expensive alternative in the name of durability, simplicity, ease of manufacture or assembly, material... a number of reasons.
Or for that matter, market interest or perceived desirability in the resultant product. If the manufacturers thought we all wanted or needed automatics, then they would be.*
I suppose the question was prompted by my earlier comment about the comparative complexity of a manual gear shift. This may well be true, but primarily in the R&D and prototyping phase: Inventing the mechanism, designing and dimensioning the components, considering alternative embodiments in order to achieve goals of function and simplicity and so on. The subsequent actual manufacturing of the parts themselves is usually a much lesser issue.
Thinking and deciding is the hard part; making and doing is the easy part.
I also like to follow the design philosophy of the original designer or engineer. When designing an iron railing for a house for example, I choose to follow the aesthetics or architectural cues of the existant house or neighborhood rather than some wacky incongruous thing, malplaced in time or style.
(although, I sometimes do one-off parts and repairs for antiques and unique items that are difficult to define engineering-wise. I just eyeball those and shoot from the hip. No sense in trying to get all square-rooty about it)
Case in point, the Senator here happens to have a center distance between shafts and holes of precisely one inch. (Perhaps old man Henze didn't think I would notice, but I did.) How convenient; it allows the use of standard inch pitch gears. It also allows similar dimensions and tooth counts of the gears already involved, which reduces the number of tooling setups used. So, follow that.
And when designing a part, i like to I choose good friendly numbers like 2 and 16 and 5, not dumb numbers like 13 & 11/17ths. Make it simple and repeatable, for anyone anywhere. No wacky specialized threads or oddball proprietary ball bearings or other silliness.
Having said all that though, sometimes it is easier to just do it, rather than sit and design things. Sometimes you need to just make something, so you can see how you should've made it. Do it again and correct a few details on the way. Which is why the table in the pictures is littered with parts that were abandoned in the process.
QuoteRobert, I don't see a notch in the pinion. How does it engage the spool?
It is probably just a dummy; a developmental prototype in the picture. The actual pinion used is slotted as usual.
QuoteYou must have been playing with the idea in your head for some time.
Not really. I've done this before. (or if as in the case of your coolers, or this reel kicking around the shop for years, then yes!! Or even closer to the truth, most of this was done in like, May... i just got around to posting it now)
Quotewould you honor us with a quick snap shot of your milling workshop.
It isn't much to see. I'm in the process of moving, and have downsized somewhat. I mean, I probably have more stuff than most guys have in the home shop, but not too much. A small lathe, a couple of mills, drill, TIG welder... the usual.
Incidentally, if anyone from one of the major manufacturers happens to be reading this, sure... by all means; drop a line. It would be fun to chat.
Gotta go make some stuff now. Later.
*giving great latitude to the effects of conservatism and traditionalism in the marketplace here. Sometimes it is very difficult to introduce anything new.
This is really impressive and I am floored that someone could do this in a home shop. Excellent work!
I have to admit, I still don't understand how it works, even after this:
Quote from: sdlehr on September 24, 2016, 12:35:55 PM
The transmission gears are fixed wrt one another. The main gears are not, but they operate under the same drag pressure. At low torque the lower, larger main gear drives both the pinion and the transmission gears. At higher torque the lower main gear slips, but the upper gear takes over, driving the transmission gear and the lower main gear, and thus the pinion.
I must still be missing a detail of some sort. It seems to me if the transmission gears are fixed WRT each other, and they remain engaged with the main gears at all times, and each of the main gears has a drag system that creates resistance when it rotates relative to the gear sleeve, then one would be fighting the drag to some extent whenever the handle is turned. The main gears would need to rotate relative to one another, so they could not both simply rotate at the speed of the gear sleeve. Is there a one way clutch or ratchet mechanism somewhere in the system (on one of the main gears, or perhaps between the two transmission gears) that allows both main gears to rotate at shaft speed when they are not slipping, but engages when the high speed gear slips?
Sensational work Doc - you're a true artisan.
Really enjoying the 'supplemental' discussion too.
This really is what Alan's site's all about.
Cheers, Justin
Hello Doc, I never get tired looking at your masterpiece here, thanks again for doing this :).
I have a question on your drag washers configuration. Have you tested your drag numbers? I know it isn't important, just a curiosity on my part.
http://alantani.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=19277.0;attach=24914
I'm thinkin you are probably getting 18 to 20 lbs at max, but not really sure. could you let me know what you're getting?
Also, besides everything else you did, that star design looks amazing.
Did you come up with it, or did you copy it from somewhere?
Thank you Doc.
Sal
Wow! Love it!
I go away for a little while and come back to this, good stuff!! ;D
Oh, hey, Sal.
Well, both yes and no... you're right; i didn't bother to check. For several reasons, i guess. One being that i wasn't terribly interested, another being that it didn't matter at the time since the plan is going to be the same anyway (make some space, fill with drag washers) so it is what it is, in the simplest way at the time.
I think the drag is adequate, and quite possibly more than 18 or 20 lbs. Bear in mind, that the actual final drag is the cumulative value of both drags together. That is, drag from gear 1 + drag from gear 2 = total drag. So, there are, as in the picture, currently eight drag washers.
However, as also can be seen in the pic, i took the opportunity to hex the gears in order to facilitate future wishes or needs. As it stands now, all stainless washers are 1 mm thick, with 0.5 mm carbontex, because it was easier that way. However, i have some hard 0.5 mm stainless i could use instead, and/or laminate with HT-100 fabric, thereby allowing several more washers if such need should arise.
Glad you like the star. It was just a temporary solution. I needed one, so i just made one from 5 or 6 mm brass. One of the tips is missing, but i figured, so what. It feels nice though.
You know what is strange, though? I can't find the reel. I mean, i haven't really looked much, but i don't remember where i put it. I must have stashed it somewhere. How peculiar.
When i find it i will finish up some details and see how much drag and so on; get back to you on that.
.
Got it! Thank you Doc!
I did have an idea that you were just filling the gear and not too concerned about numbers, as you already know, the possibilities for the washers are many. For instance, the hex metal washers could also be replaced with 1mm hex carbon washers and adding a couple more.
PLEASE, don't loose that reel.
Sal
doc, don't forget to leave this reel to somebody in your will! ;D
Quote from: alantani on September 29, 2016, 07:12:45 PM
doc, don't forget to leave this reel to somebody in your will! ;D
....someone like "The museum of fine art" ;) ;)
Quote from: Robert Janssen on September 24, 2016, 10:28:59 PM
That is a pretty good question, really. It is kind of twofold.
Not all manufacturing is about frugality. A more expensive part may well be chosen over another less expensive alternative in the name of durability, simplicity, ease of manufacture or assembly, material... a number of reasons.
Or for that matter, market interest or perceived desirability in the resultant product. If the manufacturers thought we all wanted or needed automatics, then they would be.*
Thanks for the answer, Robert! I thought as much but I was really curious about the decision making process there by Penn, etc.
Robert, any chance you can provide a schematic? I'd be interested in converting one of my 14/0s.
Quote from: Makule on October 02, 2016, 04:07:47 AM
Robert, any chance you can provide a schematic? I'd be interested in converting one of my 14/0s.
Just a wild guess on my part Albert, the schematic for that reel might be off limit, but you never know with Doc.
Robert:
I hope that you can make this two speed mechanism work, because I will be one of the first to purchase it.
I have two questions:
1. It seems like for this to work, the drag in the larger main gear, under torque, must slip before the drag in the smaller main gear. Otherwise, it will not shift into the lower gear ratio. Therefore, to do so, will you reduce the number of drag washers in the larger gear and increase them in the smaller gear? and
2. As already been raised by someone else, how do you avoid the resistance of the large main gear slippage when cranking the handle when the reel shifts into low gear?
A) It works.
1. Yes, that is right. Also consider the difference in torque though. No, I won't be changing anything for the time being; the shift point seemed pretty good. I haven't measured it yet though. Maybe will adjust something in the future. We'll see.
2. It isn't really noticeable in that way. For one thing, everything still goes 'round; you aren't cranking against a static load. Besides, if you are cranking hard enough for it to shift, then you are cranking rather hard anyway against a rather large fish and should have enough on your mind. For another, I don't think you would be cranking against the one drag per se, but rather the difference between the two.
I found the reel btw.
Gonna have a closer look at making the manual shift version.
.
Just seen this thread and WOW :o 8)
Only on alantani.com
Wow is right....I've been wondering why there are no 2-speed star drag reels on the market...
Quote from: Maxed Out on September 29, 2016, 09:55:44 PM
Quote from: alantani on September 29, 2016, 07:12:45 PM
doc, don't forget to leave this reel to somebody in your will! ;D
....someone like "The museum of fine art" ;) ;)
Uhh, I was actually thinking of it being ME, rather than the Museum . . . LOL !
Unbelievable skill & craftsmanship . . . Otto Henze is SMILING today !
Tight Lines !
Amazing! I would have never thought that was possible before this.
More than two years later, I am still in awe . . . Incredible !
MERRY CHRISTMAS !
Tight Lines !
Quote from: ez2cdave on December 25, 2018, 02:25:55 AM
More than two years later, I am still in awe . . . Incredible !
MERRY CHRISTMAS !
Tight Lines !
Yup!...same here.
This one is still the best upgrade on a Penn Senator and will be hard to beat.
Sal
A whole nother level...
Cool
Quote from: Alto Mare on December 26, 2018, 06:09:26 PM
Quote from: ez2cdave on December 25, 2018, 02:25:55 AM
More than two years later, I am still in awe . . . Incredible !
MERRY CHRISTMAS !
Tight Lines !
Yup!...same here.
This one is still the best upgrade on a Penn Senator and will be hard to beat.
Sal
Yup, but until I see a video of it in use and shifting it's still just a great idea with a lot of potential.
doc
was this reel ever used on actual fishing ?
a similar 4/0 kit like this one will kill many modern 2-speed reels that are really finicky
Robert, consider doing a spinning reel next. They are sorely lacking in the cranking torque department.