well, this reel was offered to me few months ago at a good price, but I passed on it because the price was not a bargain and I have already few reels on that same line rating, but this guy came again with a better offer and also this time he throw a super Seeker 6460XH-G to the deal telling me that he has no use for that rod and reel so, you better grab them before I sell them cheaper somewhere else (he change all his gear for shimano talicas and terez rods, poor him), so I couldnt pass on the offer this time ;D, after all you can never have too many reels or rods, right ? ;D ;D ;))
this are the reel and rod, reel is in pretty good shape, some deep nicks but thats it, I can live with them, corrosion is almost non existant or pretty light.
rod has more boat rash all over but not deep nicks or deep scratches so, its ok on my book, it still bends pretty nice and for the price its really a bargain, almost a free rod so I can deal with those marks with some light sanding and a new clear coat to give the rod a new life.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4347/35788924713_c03b355826_o.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4331/35762867094_df33777e5b_o.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4382/36201936180_b67bee4cbc_o.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4387/36201933430_3b87f34399_o.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4354/36429830222_3f54019f5f_o.jpg)
soooo, now please school me on this reel, I have read few info about it and seems like it was made to fish ifga 16lb test but can fish with 30lb/40lb easily, I really dont use those lines locally, I normally use 60 or 80 mono leader for abrasion purposes and 80# braid for same reason, thats the configuration on my Baja special reel and fathom 40LD2.
on my Baja Special a fish 18# drag and with the fathom 15# on strike
what would be a safe drag setting for this Intl 16s on strike?
how easily you can damage your pinion bearing, as easy as with the Avets?
any home-made upgrade for this reel to add few more # to the stock drag? (with this I mean any upgrade that you guys can recommend without need to be sent to Cals)
100 pound braid, 80 pound topshot and 24 pounds of drag at strike!
Yes, I had one of these reels, 16VSX, for a while and fished it with 80 pound Izor XXX with a three foot 90 pound floro leader, over 100 pound spectra. Caught several 120-140 pound YFT on it.
I sold mine because I got the "wants" for another reel of the same class. I will fish the new reel pretty much the same as above.
You've got a great outfit there, so service it and fish it, you will enjoy both activities a lot!
josa1
Quote from: alantani on August 16, 2017, 03:17:36 AM
100 pound braid, 80 pound topshot and 24 pounds of drag at strike!
Quote from: josa1 on August 16, 2017, 02:15:50 PM
fished it with 80 pound Izor XXX with a three foot 90 pound floro leader, over 100 pound spectra. Caught several 120-140 pound YFT on it.
wow, thanks Boss and Josa, that seems like a perfect spooling configuration for this waters, looks like I just got me my new trolling reel, now I feel 3x more exited than when I bought it
(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/3592_16_08_17_11_09_06_21025176.gif)
by the way, Josa, I just recently serviced a penn intl 50s so, I think pretty much its going to be the same just smaller parts and your rigth those are some reel that you enjoy opening them and service, no like some shimano reels that have tons of small parts and jumping springs
Good things happen to good guys Alex. Congratulations amigo. Have fun and post pictures of some big fish. Dominick
Looks like it'll clean up nicely. The Super Seeker 6460xh was a great deal! If you can't get the drag you want you could send it to Cal's to be blueprinted.
Thanks Dom and Mark
Sending it to Cal's is an option for sure, we will see if its necessary
Quote from: MarkT on August 18, 2017, 04:08:57 AM
The Super Seeker 6460xh was a great deal!
you know Mark, it was a great deal cuz the owner wasnt using it since many months ago, the rod is missing one of the rollers bearing and he didnt wanted to deal with that since he have many other rods.
so, I know will have to search for the exact roller guide or check if there is a "bearing kit" available, but if someone happens to have one of those bearing kit for the last roller guide (I dont know the size) or one of those black and gold rollers guide send me a PM with the price, I read on tackle direct that those are aftco rollers.
I would think you could order a replacement roller and screws for that guide. The guide number should be on the guide, and if nothing else, you could probably get one from AFTCO.
Good luck with the service/setup. Alan's numbers seem high to me for this little guy. I was guesstimate the reel should do 12lbs strike (w/o affecting freespool), and 16lbs at full (w/o damaging the pinion). You may be able to squeeze a bit more if you steeper the curve with messing around with Belleville config (maybe use the heavier VS washers). I would think 16/20lbs would be tops. It was designed to fish at 6/8lbs with 16lb mono after all.
I haven't worked on one of these though, so Alan might be right. Try ordering 3 thin (stock 16s) washers, and 2 heavy (16vS) washers and play around a bit. You may also want a shim or 2.
John
@ Mark, I will do a search for the guide replacement thanks
@ John, where I can buy some shims of different sizes and thickness? are they available from stock penn parts?
Quote from: Tightlines666 on August 18, 2017, 06:31:16 PM
Good luck with the service/setup. Alan's numbers seem high to me for this little guy.
you know, you're absolutely right, they are high. i was thinking about a 16vsx........ :-\
Quote from: Tightlines666 on August 18, 2017, 06:31:16 PM
You may be able to squeeze a bit more if you steeper the curve with messing around with Belleville config (maybe use the heavier VS washers). I would think 16/20lbs would be tops. It was designed to fish at 6/8lbs with 16lb mono after all.
Quote from: alantani on August 18, 2017, 06:53:56 PM
Quote from: Tightlines666 on August 18, 2017, 06:31:16 PM
Good luck with the service/setup. Alan's numbers seem high to me for this little guy.
you know, you're absolutely right, they are high. i was thinking about a 16vsx........ :-\
ooh well, now Im back to my normal starting excitement (not the 3x, LOL)
anyway, I will aim to get at least 15# at strike playing with the benevilles and check how the pinion bearing last on that drag setting, that will be enough for the local sized YT and big cabrillas, might be under gunned for an angry big gulf grouper, so, it will be still a really good reel for trolling the northen waters of Sea of Cortez.
I always wanted to get one of those gold shiny international reels when I was starting fishing many years ago, so, this is it.
Quote from: steelfish on August 18, 2017, 06:48:07 PM
@ Mark, I will do a search for the guide replacement thanks
@ John, where I can buy some shims of different sizes and thickness? are they available from stock penn parts?
I think these will suit your needs...
https://www.mysticparts.com/PennParts/Parts/8A-TS5-2.aspx (https://www.mysticparts.com/PennParts/Parts/8A-TS5-2.aspx)
https://www.mysticparts.com/PennParts/Parts/18-20.aspx (https://www.mysticparts.com/PennParts/Parts/18-20.aspx)
https://www.mysticparts.com/PennParts/Parts/18-12T.aspx (https://www.mysticparts.com/PennParts/Parts/18-12T.aspx)
https://www.mysticparts.com/PennParts/Parts/18-16VS.aspx (https://www.mysticparts.com/PennParts/Parts/18-16VS.aspx)
Not sure if the last 2 types of Belleville will work in your reel, but for a couple of extra bucks, I would order them and find out.
John
"Edited as per Moderators to correct Scott's Bait & Tackle over to their new store name Mystic Reel Parts / www.mysticparts.com"
cool. thanks amigo, i will order some of those asap
this surely its a long shot but, if there a way to change the shifter mechanism into a more modern style instead of the stock wayof "push and pull" whole handle assembly?
Quote from: steelfish on August 18, 2017, 08:25:55 PM
cool. thanks amigo, i will order some of those asap
this surely its a long shot but, if there a way to change the shifter mechanism into a more modern style instead of the stock wayof "push and pull" whole handle assembly?
No.
There are advantages to the simplicity of that mechanism. You may want to get in the habit of holding the spool while shifting, just to ensure good engagement w/o damage though. Check the inside of the drive shaft bushing for marring too. Polishing it up a bit, and a new pinion bearing (and even a new high speed maingear) will help make the reel feel smoother when cranking.
John
There have been plenty of people wanting to convert back to the old shifting method! I think that's something else that Cal's can do.
Quote from: Tightlines666 on August 18, 2017, 08:29:48 PM
There are advantages to the simplicity of that mechanism. You may want to get in the habit of holding the spool while shifting, just to ensure good engagement w/o damage though. Check the inside of the drive shaft bushing for marring too. Polishing it up a bit, and a new pinion bearing (and even a new high speed maingear) will help make the reel feel smoother when cranking.
John
As always thanks for those tips
Quote from: MarkT on August 18, 2017, 09:15:28 PM
There have been plenty of people wanting to convert back to the old shifting method! I think that's something else that Cal's can do.
Seems like Im bit spoiled by the shifter on the fathom and TLD
I have used my intl 50s so In bit new to this shifter method, I just need to get used to it more
it would be a good 60 pound reel with 18 pounds of drag at strike. not sure if you could fish it with an 80 pound topshot and 24 pounds of drag at strike. the 16 vsx will reach that range easily. you might be able to monkey with the bellevilles and get there, but it would take some time to fiddle with it and see.
thanks for your input Alan, I will order a bunch of benevilles and check that out.
if could get 18# at strike I will be a happy camper, thats the numbers where I fish my Baja Special, 15# on the fathom 40LD2.
althought, the 80# topshot is more for abrasion purposes than for strenght, big cabrillas, groupers and local YT tend to run for the rocky bottoms to scape and cut the line as butter, if you use a ligth mono or floro line for topshop the fish dont even let you prepare for the fight when the line was already cut by the rocks
Quote from: Tightlines666 on August 18, 2017, 06:31:16 PM
I was guesstimate the reel should do 12lbs strike (w/o affecting freespool), and 16lbs at full (w/o damaging the pinion). ...... I would think 16/20lbs would be tops. ......John
Quote from: alantani on August 18, 2017, 11:06:09 PM
it would be a good 60 pound reel with 18 pounds of drag at strike. not sure if you could fish it with an 80 pound topshot and 24 pounds of drag at strike. the 16 vsx will reach that range easily. you might be able to monkey with the bellevilles and get there, but it would take some time to fiddle with it and see.
well, I not always using the max drags on lever drag reels, (actually my fathom 40LD2 is my 1st one and normally use 15# strike which is nowhere near the max).
but Im testing this penn 16s, I havent open it yet (pretty busy these last days) but find the time to check the drag on it.
I will show you my findings, please tell me if thats the correct way to test the max drag and if Im asking for problems using the max drag on this powerhouse reel.
first I turned the preset lever until the reel barely lost freespool, then I turned back the preset lever 1/4 of turn (45*) which gave me a really nice freespool (the spool spins for 6 seconds, but bearings need a cleaning job asap), my drag readings on a scale with the reel on a rod pulling the scale spring where (attached pics).
8# drag, if the drag lever is half inch after the freespool clicker/buttom
19# drag on strike
26.5# drag on full, max
I tested the drag again, this time if the preset lever is half turn back from the mark where lost freespool.(180* backwards), which gave me a super free spool (the spool spin for 9 seconds, same deal bearings surely need a cleaning / lub job), this time these are the numbers:
4# drag, if the drag lever is half inch after the freespool clicker/buttom
15# drag on strike
21# drag on full, max
soooo, Im not sure if thats a correct way to test the max drag on a leverdrag or if I should test it as soon as reel gets the freespool back for 1 complete spin, also if I use it on that mark of max drag thats asking for a bad pinion bearing pretty soon.
I might not have the time to open the reel and service it until next weekend, but if needed I can open it, check the benevilles arrangement, etc, take some pics and close it.
That sounds pretty good to me.
Your second test with the preset backed off 1/2 turn is probably a good measure of where your max drag w/o lost of freespool is at. I check by ensuring the spoolhas no movement when cranking the handle when in freespool. Another way to gain confidence that you will not be damaging components when fishing that setting, is to try cranking while holding the spool steady at strike and at max. Any felt grinding is bad.
John
Quote from: Tightlines666 on August 22, 2017, 07:13:00 PM
That sounds pretty good to me.
I check by ensuring the spoolhas no movement when cranking the handle when in freespool. ..
John
now that what I was looking for, thanks for the tip John
well, I finally have the time to go though a deep cleaning service to my penn 16s
it did really need one, the previous owner seem to dont care much of it, I got it Alantanized, yamaha grease here and there, packed the sideplate bearings, opened and cleaned the spool bearings and put 321 oil, grease under the reel stand and screws, so I wont post tons of pics of the service, just some of the particular issues I found on mine.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/3592_21_09_17_6_48_09_21964977.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/3592_21_09_17_6_46_14_219582098.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/3592_21_09_17_6_43_19_2194780.jpeg)
at the end I slaped some grease on the spool bearings for added protection, I dont plan to cast this reel so its all good
(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/3592_21_09_17_6_44_17_21951433.jpeg)
handle screw was so badly corroded that half of the screw head got desintegrated on the first push with the flat screwdriver, I had to take my dremel and take the rest of the screw head to take out the handle lock plate, there was some corrosion under the lock plate but the handle arm is soo thick that it will still work pretty good, the handle wont came easily, so remember to add some grease on the shaft to avoid this same issue.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/3592_22_09_17_9_03_52_21971409.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/3592_22_09_17_9_03_45_21970441.jpeg)
the benevilles were ugly corroded as you can see and the spool shaft looked bad too when I took them out from the spool.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/3592_21_09_17_6_47_32_21962808.jpeg)
good thing found that the corrosion was only on the benevilles, the spool shaft got cleaned really good, that stainless steel material is goooood (picture dont show, but it got a mirror shine clean)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/3592_21_09_17_6_41_04_21936229.jpeg)
the shaft sleeve got sanded a bit (this worked wonders on my 50s reel) as well it was the gear stud, this last one went from a dark color to a shiny stainless steel chrome, the result was a really smooth crank on the handle.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/3592_21_09_17_6_42_02_219401529.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/3592_21_09_17_6_41_04_219351900.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/3592_22_09_17_9_23_38_219722084.jpeg)
this reel needed some new parts as new benevilles, a new pinion bearing (it felt good, but it had some surface corrosion so I discarted it), some shims, so I ordered some benevilles for the penn 16s, 16vs and 16vsx, new drag spring and shims for the 16vsx to play different configurations set ups, when got them I found out that benevilles for the 16vs and 16vxs and shims didnt fit on the 16s spool shaft, gladly I ordered a new set of benevilles for the 16s size, days later I got a package with 30 shims of 10mm with different widths to play with (from an RC car source)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/3592_21_09_17_6_49_02_21968349.jpeg)
the original width of the beneville stack was 5.69mm and the configuration was ()(), drag was 19#strike / 26.5# full before losing free spool, the freespool time was 6 seconds.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/3592_21_09_17_6_45_48_219572317.jpeg)
I tried way too different benevilles configuration as John suggested and I must say I learned a lot on how the benevilles affect the drag curve, max drag , etc on level drag reel doing this excercise, until I found a configuration that gave me enough drag on strike and max with still plenty freespool and the drag lever didnt felt that hard to reach FULL drag mark.
my benevilles configuration on which I stayed was |(())(
a .3mm shim with 5 stock benevilles, the final width was 5.77mm, drag numbers are 23# strike / 28#full before losing freespool (I think my max drag was more but I stopped there cuz I felt that my testing rod was about to break), and freespool time was 9 seconds (this was with the preset knob backed off 90* from losing freespool).
(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/3592_21_09_17_6_45_06_219541204.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/3592_21_09_17_6_42_51_219451053.jpeg)
but since the handle felt kind of hard to cranck on FULL in hight speed with those numbers, I decided to moved the preset knob a bit back to an estimate of 145-150* backed off from losing freespool (almost half turn backed off, 180*), that gave me 12 seconds freespool, 19# strike/ 22# just pass the strike bump/ 26# full, but the best of it, is that you can cranck the handle easily and smooth at FULL mark while in hight speed, if you switch to low speed on that same specs you can even turn the handle with your pinkie finger, so this is it, it wont be settle to fight monsters but plenty of power for my fishing zones.
I will used it as my dedicated trolling reel, its too heavy to use it for drop loop for long time or yoyo, thats where my Baja Special comes handy, but the low speed on the 16s is always appreciated.
I dont know if I want to use a reel with 28# or more without using harnesses, Im not a strong guy so, 28# drag was really hard to pull from the scale with my rod, I cannot imagine figthing a fish at 28-30# for long time, I will use the reel on the mark with the preset knob almost half turn backed off from losing free spool, thats 19# strike or just passing the "strike" mark with 22# and still have some drag as spare if need it.
this made me test my fathom 40LD2 which on specs have 28s/40f drag, but the drag lever felt harder to move to full with 20# strike than how it feels with the 16s, this might be because of the new benevilles confifuration, I dont know if I ever want to use the fathom with 25-28 at strike and if the lever will still be able to be moved to full easily, I will test that later, for now I feel pretty happy with the 16s and cant wait to try it fishing with a nice fish.
Nice work!
Great job on that reel, and the explanation!
Once you take the time to go through the reel tuning process with the Bellevilles, it gives you a whole new appreciation for their function. You should now have the skills needed to perform the 'poor man's blueprint', as I like to call it, on any lever drag.
It is very helpful to have the posted info on the stack heights, and drag numbers for this reel. Wish we had a list of stock Belleville configurations, heights, and the resulting drag curves for all of the different International reel models. This would be an invaluable resource in my honest opinion.
Thanks for the write up!
John
Alex. GREAT write-up. I need to go back in my Gen 1 30's. I serviced them this spring but experienced some of the same binding. I though maybe the drags but I recall the bellevilles weren't in the best shape, probably 35 years old. I'll order up a batch and go to work.
John
Quote from: Tightlines666 on September 22, 2017, 05:58:27 PM
Once you take the time to go through the reel tuning process with the Bellevilles, it gives you a whole new appreciation for their function. You should noe have the skills needed to perform the 'poor man's blueprint', as I like to call it, on any lever drag.
John
John, I really appreciated your words specially coming from you, Im the one that must say Thank you to you amigo, you are right, after the "intensive express trainning" I have on one night I now understand how this part of the reels (benevilles) play an important role on LD reels, I must have taken the reel apart to change the benevilles configuration 10 times easily on the same night.
I wanted to stop at 1am and continue the next day but I wasnt happy with the results I was having so, I say to myself, myself just one more try just one more configuration, take that reel, open it again and think a new setup!! so, I did it ::).
well, that really ended up making me tried like 5 more configurations until I ended up choosing one of the many the configurations I tried and put it again to called it a day and with a big smile at 3:45am ;D ;D
the shims play an important role too to make fine tunes on the drag curve, this reel model have none on the stock setup
JOhn (thor), I say get some new benevilles, new shims, maybe a new drag spring and go for it.
i just finished a friend's 16S. beautiful reel!
(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/1_22_09_17_3_22_27_21973556.jpeg)
thanks Alan for posting that one with the Tib frame, it looks really good and clean.
Im plan on using the reel 3-4 times, if I really like it as much as for keeping it for long then I'll go for the tib frame and get new parts that are pitted just for the looks, I already have the 5/0 Tani knob waiting to be installed ;)
can I ask on what drag readings did you setup the reel for your friend?
30% of line weight, or 18 pounds at strike.
great, its good to know compadre Alan, I will be fishing mine on 19# strike
Good job on that reel Alex and nice pics as well.
Sal
Alan, just would like to know. To get 18 lbs at strike did you leave the Belleville arrangement stock ()()?
This has been a great thread!
Thanks,
Mike grosman.
No, I had to change it to "(())".
Quote from: alantani on September 23, 2017, 04:06:16 AM
No, I had to change it to "(())".
Didnt you lost some mm of the total size width of the beneville stack?
Mine was 5.69mm stock width ()()
and went to 4.81mm width at (())
Even with five benevilles at (())) it was 5.29mm and my max drag was 21# & strike was 16# too low for my liking.
Its important to say that new benevilles I got for 16s from scotts were thinner than originals,
The new benevilles were 5.52mm on ()() so, some shims were necessary to reach the beneville factory width size, once I reached factory width then I played with different configurations
i did lose some width, but it worked out just fine. for your reel, the thinner bellevilles will give you a lower drag range no matter what you do.
Quote from: alantani on September 23, 2017, 12:37:15 PM
i did lose some width, but it worked out just fine. for your reel, the thinner bellevilles will give you a lower drag range no matter what you do.
Your totally right Alan, which not surprised me of curse.
I found out exactly what you said on my many configurations try outs
In order to get a nice drag Curve and at max with a smooth cranck, I have to use two of the original benevilles (just clean them good with a steel brush) since they give better preasure.
So there were 3 new benevilles (thin) and two originals ones (thick) at my final configuration
Two of the original benevilles were really pitted by corrosion but seemed to work good, but there were another two that have only surface corrosion and those were the ones I used.
Im always learning, thanks for your feedback
Always good to have some thin and thick ones available. Different reel models have different tolerances for variations in stsck height. The older internationals have quite a bit of wiggle room here.
If the stack gets too tall, you will lose preset adjustment, and you may have clearance issues with the clicker pawl and retainer, and may lose freespool function.
Conversely, if your stack is too short, you may run into clearance issues with the low speed gear and ratchet plate, and with the spool shaft and tailplate. You can also lose freespool functionality.
As a broad generalization, the older reels typically use softer configurations, with thinner washers, resulting in more linear curves, and lower max drags. While more modern models, often use thicker washers with stronger configurations, resulting in more agressive drag curves, and higher max drags.
Bellevilles are only part of the equation here though, and the shape if the cam ramp is actually more influential in determining the drag curve. The drag spring is also part of the equation. This spring compresses in a linear fashion though, so it really determines at what setting the drag will start to engage. A heavier spring will require more pressure to allow the drag to engage.
Shims can be used to maintain spacing along the spool shaft, to maintain proper clearances of the various reel components, or to account for wear. You can shim the Belleville stsck to maintain its height. You can shim at the left spool bearing, and tailplate bearing to account for drag plate/disc wear, or to move the spool to the right (relative to the spool shaft). Shimming at the pinion bearing will decrease your preset, and move the shaft, spool and related components to the left.
You can also shim under the main gear(s), or under the handle in order to tighten up and drive shaft play. And shims can be used on the clicker parts to account for wear, or maintain functionality at max drag settings, with taller Belleville stacks.
With shimming, less is more. Don't shim unless it is needed, and use the least amount if shims needed to get the clearance you need, ir proper functionality.
Some lever drag reels have a lot of wiggle room, and will continue to function just fine as components wear or corrode, while others are very sensitive to changes is spacing and need new parts and/or shimming more frequently. These older internationals fall in to the former category.
You really don't need to over think this stuff either. If you want a steeper curve, with more max drag, try thicker Bellevilles and stiffer/harder configuration. If the change works, and there are no issues with functionality or obvious clearance issues, use it.
Quote from: Tightlines666 on September 23, 2017, 08:28:48 PM
Some lever drag reels have a lot of wiggle room, and will continue to function just fine as components wear or corrode, while others are very sensitive to changes is spacing and need new parts and/or shimming more frequently. These older internationals fall in to the former category.
now wonder it was a good reel to learn the uses of benevilles for rookies like me
tight tolerances are not always a good thing. :-\
Well guys. A BIG THANK YOU to John, Steelfish, and of course Alan. Picked up a nice International 16 a little bit ago. I do have a 30sw that I love, but It is a bit heavy for holding in hand for any length of time. Still, these old pens are built so rugged and I can get them in the price range I like. I Bought this one recently. Cleaned It up, replaced some bearings. Put on one of Alan's handles I repurposed. Next I'll get some line on I have stored around here, 65 lb braid, and work on the drag to hopefully get It to around 18-20lb at strike. I can't wait to get a chance to use it!! Thanks again guys, without your help I wouldn't be able to do all this. What a great site!
Mike Grosman
Great thread lads - and terrific work Alex.
Looking forward to seeing it put to the test!
Cheers, Justin
Is it a lefty or mounted backwards? Dominick
Its a righty. The butt of the rod is in the distance, I'm at the tiptop. Not the best photographer🤔
Mounted on a Fenwick Pacificstik!