I have a very old ~5.5' beater fiberglass Boat Rod (even the Reel Seat is suspect). Guides are busted.
Before I spend any money, I thought I would take what is left of the Guides off, rummage though my box of tricks, and attempt to Spiral Wrap. If it turns out reasonably decent, I will do it on a Rod really worth saving with proper supplies.
Now, understanding the rules, is there any magic in doing this? Any math when clocking the Guides? Minimum number of Guides? Direction of rotation preferred? Any thoughts are always appreciated.
Thanks
Steve
Virginia Beach
Typically rotate clockwise. how long is blank above reel seat? also governed by arc of flex of the rod under load, but I would use at least six guides total, transiting in two. Meaning, stripper at 12 o'clock, first offset at 200, second at four, and then last three or four (depending on flexibility) at 600 (180 degrees from start, on the underside of rod. Typically a boat probably is stiff enough and short enough six guides will do, definitely as practice round. good call.
Key point, if you are doing a rebuild from seat up, it's likely the rod wasn't splined to true (spline 180 degrees from reel on conventional rod) before assembly so you may have a funny roll under load anyway.
hope that helps, or maybe was just confusing lol
John
John
not confusing at all - understand what you wrote.. I will have to measure the Rod.. This is one of those old 2 piece Boat Rods with the wooden handle/Metal Ferrules joining the Fiberglass.. the ones that you had as a kid and that would stick together..
Thanks
Steve
Here ya go!
I have re-wrapped many of my rods this way.
To me it's the only way to go for conventional reel rods.
http://www.acidrod.com/files/degreewheel_wInstructions.pdf
hahaha - going to print that out Steve-O..
just the Ticket..
S
And don't forget this bit of intel: The direction you spiral your guides depends on which side of the reel the crank is.
The spiral should always twist away from your cranking hand.
This causes the rod to balance out when under a load, due to the fact that the fish is applying slightly heavier pressure to the side the guides are twisting and
you're naturally applying pressure to the side you're cranking on.
So for me fishing with spinning reels, I use left hand retrieve, however with conventional reels I use right hand retrieve.
All my acid wrap rod guides go COUNTER-clockwise.
AHH
so with this Conventional-Reel Boat Rod, I will have to wrap counterclockwise..
good to know..
S
Quote from: sundancer on August 24, 2017, 07:11:07 PM
AHH
so with this Conventional-Reel Boat Rod, I will have to wrap counterclockwise..
good to know..
S
Yes, IF your reel is right hand retrieve.
Otherwise John - Thorhammer - is right saying clockwise....which is correct for left hand wind.
This is what counters the winding torque.
I can have a heavy fish on and open the non-winding, rod holding hand with the foregrip resting on my palm and there's ZERO twist because the line is pulling down from underneath the rod blank once it gets past the guide rotation from the top around to the bottom.
MMMM (confused look)
I understand the thought of countering the 'torque' of reeling in with the wrap, but I challenge the truth a little..
I would think that by the time the Line leaves the Rod, it has been running 'parallel' to the Rod for quite awhile. There isn't any twisting of the Rod at this point; after the first few Guides that pull the Line under the Blank..
Thoughts??
Steve
Follow Steve's advice. If you crank with right hand then spiral to the left. All of my customs are done this way and it works. The stripper guide needs to be to the left a few degrees too and not straight up at 0 degrees. The calculator in acid rod can help you with spacing also.
Quote from: sundancer on August 24, 2017, 07:29:45 PM
MMMM (confused look)
I understand the thought of countering the 'torque' of reeling in with the wrap, but I challenge the truth a little..
I would think that by the time the Line leaves the Rod, it has been running 'parallel' to the Rod for quite awhile. There isn't any twisting of the Rod at this point; after the first few Guides that pull the Line under the Blank..
Thoughts??
Steve
No rocket or rod scientist here....BUT ...it works!
You could even simulate it with any two piece rod.
Add an overhead reel, run line through the guides, twist the tip end of the rod 180 and tie the line to a static point or very heavy weight.
Crank down the drag nice and snug and lift.
Then hold the rod against your leg or stomach and open the rod holding hand and push the reel sideways with the other hand.
On a proper spiral wrapped rod the reel will stand proud and not flip over.
Just a like a spinning reel with all the guides under the rod won't flip over upside down, reel up.
It may not simulate EXACTLY like a spiral wrap but close enough.
I thought it was weird at first and am a firm believer now.
Another key thing is know how to "spine" your blank...especially if it is a two piece.
You have to get that part right with any rod building project.
Quote from: Newell Nut on August 24, 2017, 07:47:20 PM
Follow Steve's advice. If you crank with right hand then spiral to the left. All of my customs are done this way and it works. The stripper guide needs to be to the left a few degrees too and not straight up at 0 degrees. The calculator in acid rod can help you with spacing also.
Thanks for chiming in, Dwight.
Steve, look around a bit and you will see some of Dwight's fantastic rod builds...including some acid wraps.
Steve, love the compass jig. I'm using it.
What Steve and Dwight are saying about counter clockwise makes sense to me; I had mimicked a commercial rod where that was probably not thought through. I'll be doing that on any future acid wrap (I have one IP and one on deck for Mike Pate).
On your tomato stake trial run, it is what is, most likely, but you may be able to rotate fore end to true spine once you strip it. Def spline your new build though.
don't mean to hijack, but I'm sorta' on the subject :)
I have an absolutely horrible Cabela's 10' M Salmon/Steelhead that I have to flip over & reel backwards & curse the trigger, even for smaller fish (obviously, built on the same blank as their corresponding Spinning 10' M)... when flipped, the tip section behaves like a very nice Mod/Fast spinning rod, so I think the rod would be awesome as a spiral & want to convert it "fast & dirty"
i.e., leave the tip section completely as is & do the entire 180* switch over the 5' butt section... about 4' from reel line guide to first guide on the tip section, which is pretty big (#10?), so I'd like to use the minimum number of same size to transition to the #12(?) stripper... any ideas on number & spacing? (the stripper definitely should & can be moved much closer to the reel, without concerns about line angle & I understand about going clockwise for L/H retrieve)
thanks for any ideas
Gent's
now I am really fired up to do it..
will spine the Rod and plan out the 'counter-clockwise' layout..
Don't cringe guys but with the plan of 'cheap' and 'testing the idea', I thought I would just use braided line as the wrap material and some type of epoxy or super glue.. (ok - let the beatings begin)...
if all goes well, then I will get some ceramic guides and proper wrapping and overcoat material and try on a couple of other Rods..
thanks
Steve
Thread finish is hard to the touch after it dries but it flexes with the rod. Best if you buy a small cheap starter kit from Flex Coat and you will have enough for a couple rods.
Since you probably do not have a rod drier to keep the epoxy from dripping and having high spots you could choose another option.
Look for U-40 Urethane for rods. This brushes on like water and dries quickly as it soaks into the threads. After about 4 coats allowing an hour between coats you will see a nice shine and no big build up of any kind. Threads will be protected and it will flex as well. Use good ventilation during application.
Hey Steve, this is about exactly how I got started...fair warning...a hundred or so builds later lol....
braid will work fine. here's a couple of tips, I'm supposed to doing a thread on how to do just this with ready-to-hand materials available locally to most.
-Walmart or craft store will have nylon upholstery thread in a variety of colors for over wrap. they will also have various metallic and metallic butt cord and metallic ribbon. no functional difference from a rod supply. I use all the time.
-you can make a simple wrapper from two cardboard boxes with "V" cutouts to cradle the rod, or simply screw two pieces of scrap wood together to form a base and 90 degree upright with a "U" shaped cutout, and white glue a piece of scrap leather or felt in the cutout. You may as well do this as you will do more rods...
-folks will laugh but I never got around to buying a thread carriage. I put the spool in a little plastic tray with a hole to run the line through and tension / guide the wrap with one hand and spin rod with the other, making sure I washed hands of Cheezit dust first. Unless I'm doing burgundy and orange thread. The flecks add a nice custom touch not found in Mudhole catalog. Use some clear nail polish as thread sealer; regular nylon thread is not coated, and as it cures it will absorb epoxy and create low spots and bubbles otherwise.
- early on I built / repaired a lot of rods with Devcon Two Ton epoxy. It's hard to find now but I have a least a dozen rods in garage with no fading or cracking over a decade old, and some 20 years. My advice to you on this build is to get a five minute two-part epoxy like Loctite or Gorilla, have someone rotate rod slowly on the same cradles while you brush on epoxy, then get yourself an adult beverage and slowly rotate by hand until it sets enough to live on its own without any sag. I'd go 30 minutes just to be sure.
Buy list:
Walmart: $1 black spray paint; nylon upholstery thread $3; metallic, if you choose for accent $2; Gorilla Glue 5 minute, $4; craft paint brushes, 20 for a buck; popsicle sticks $1for a bunch; mouthwash cups $2 for a bunch, stain / varnish for handle $5.
Certainly you can sub things you already likely have at home like paint and stain, or mixing sticks.
You'll be surprised what a nice looking job you do right here with stuff basically laying around, while you decide to commit to a drying motor, Diamond epoxy, etc for future builds.
Honestly you could just go old-skool and just use a few coats of clear varnish on the thread, but I think you will prefer the above for about ten bucks which still leaves you with materials for other projects. Hope this helps
J
Dwight posted that while I was typing. Agree all counts. It just depends how deep you want to get in right off the bat and whether you want to mess with it this weekend or wait on shipping.
I am not a real Cheezie fan so not an issue..
I have a Fly Tying Bobbin so thread control should be 'ok'.. this weekend's weather looks pretty good so I might try to get out and defrost some bait.
I will be setting up the boxes and beverages though.. Again, I will have to see what type and how many Guides I have. Might be off to the Tackle Store (and impulse shop, LOLOLOL).. They usually have a fair choice of used, fairly good condition, Rigs..
Other than something to do in the winter, the test Rod has a bad Reel Seat. The Tightening Screw/Reel Foot Retainer is cracked. I used Hollowcore Dacron Line to wrap the plastic Screw and coated it with Gorilla Glue.. Works but Butt Ugly..
Steve
cool, this remains me when I was just starting and wanted to go the cheapest option too, not that I have years of experience but I think Im all covered on the basics of restoring a rod.
sorry for any spelling or grammatical mistake you might find on my explanation, you might not know but english is not my 1st lenguage, I was born and still live in Baja, Mexico, hopefully you will get the idea.
I must admit that on my 1st repairs for one or two guides, I went with the route of upholstery thread for cheap rods but i used a flexcoat started kit, salsa mini cups, and my home-made wraper rig, those rods have no a sign of cracking or anything as almost as good as repaired with proper rod building thread, but only did it using black thread and on really cheap Wmart rods.
the key to use a proper rod building expoxy without a rod drier is to use a minimal as possible, it was hard for me to understand how to "just use minimal", on my tests I was getting a lot of bumps and uneven epoxy on the wraps, until I got a lot of help from the seasoned rod builders here specially by Dwight, so, now I can recommend you to add the epoxy with you brush or spatula on the top of the wraps and let it run by itself to the bottom wait 2-3 minutes and turn the rod again 90* and let the epoxy run again, wait again but this ime take out any expoxy that is about to drip, then turn the rod again, sweep the expoxy to cover the thread as needed (you are not painting it just moving it with your tool to cover all the thread), wait for the epoxy to run to the bottom again and take out any dripping expoxy, this way the epoxy on the threads will be minimal and this light coat will be only enough to cover the thread but wont cause any drip or bumps when dried, once you epoxy dont run or try to drip, keep turning the rod for 1-2 hrs until is dry to the touch, NOTE, dont touch your wraps to check if the epoxy is dry, touch the epoxy left on you mixing cup, so dont throw those mixing cups with the leftovers of expoxy, those are your only way to check your expoxy without ruining your job on the rod.
that first coat will be partially absorved by the thread, most of the time you can use the rod like that if you want but I will recommend at least 2 coats of expoxy, you'll have to wait 24hrs to add the next coat, the reason for the 2nd coat is that on the 2nd coat you will correct any minimal bump or bubble left on the 1st coat and also the wraps will be more protected from nicks and hits.
I have built and re-wrapped probably only 10 rods since the first one in 2003...so not a pro at it nor in the business of doing it for others.
Most of my equipment to wrap rods is "MacGuyver'ed" together and works just fine.
My rod cradle is a long 2 X 4 with two uprights with V notches and felt glued on.
My rod turner is a Makita Variable speed drill rigged to a jig with attaches to the 2X4 and has a Zip tie on the switch loosely. Then I use a shim or two to activate the power at the VERY slowest possible speed and let it run all night. No drips or sags in the morning. Then I let it set up for another day to dry and cure tack free.
Good to go fishing.
I have actually spent more effort in converting some of my one piece rods into travel rods to take with me to Alaska. So far every single one has passed the " Alaska Tuff" test. ;D
I've made many (acid wrapped) rods and do like the way they perform. I made a jig rod for cod /pollack with the spirals wrap on it but found that I wasn't getting the distance I wanted while casting from the pulpit. I re-wrapped it to a conventional rod and got about 20% more distance while underhand casting 10 oz jigs. Bait fishing and dropping straight down there is nothing like the spiral wrap.
Dave
Hi,
A few years back, when we were all still using multipliers (conventionals) for our surf fishing, I built a series of rods with spiral wrapping, basically taking the concept to the ultimate degree of rod length - right up to 14' long, and for some very heavy duty applications like surf sharks.
We found that the distances available from a rod with or without spiral wrapped guides did not change in any measurable manner. However the performance on the rod once built with the spiral wrapped guides was hugely improved - no more death grip on the upper handle when fighting heavy sharks, as the rod was totally balancedd out - specifically by taking the guide spiral opposite to the reel handle side - right handed reel, left handed spiral.
One very small aspect that we did find applicable, though it would probably not be so significant, was the direction the rod blank was wrapped with the carbon or glass fabric. When we found blanks that had been wrapped counter clockwise, and then placed guides on in a counter clockwise manner, they just seemed slightly 'sweeter' in action - p;ut it down to internal torque within the actual blank itself.
Cheers from sunny Africa
Jeri
Gents..
let me make one statement....
'I HATE YOU ALL.....' ;-)
going down the path of trying out building a Rod; for our vacation trip i picked up 4 beater, cheap, light Spinning combos.
I promptly broke one of them.
once home, i ordered various sizes of Ferrule and repaired the Rod. I haven't tested the repair, but Mudhole included a catalog.. lolol.. look at all the pretty, shiny tools and supplies..
I need stuff.. I need to build a Rod..
thanks for nothing guys, like i don't have enough to do........................
Steve
PS
just acquired, for free no less, 2 Penn 309's which are in good shape but i will crack open for a good once over..
S
I'm saying that if you're going to get "hooked" on something.....fishing, and all it's "components"(reel repair, lure building, rod repair, or construction, etc.) is a MUCH better (and often much CHEAPER !) than many other things ! It's safer, and family friendly !
You *might* need to consider building a "larger" workshop/ storage area, and a *few* extra tool boxes, though !
Jeri - I hadn't thought about the direction of cloth wrap of the blank - It kinda makes sense I think :-\
Quote from: Crow on October 19, 2017, 02:06:12 PM
You *might* need to consider building a "larger" workshop/ storage area, and a *few* extra tool boxes, though !
Crow
Funny, real funny..
Actually, we will be putting in a Shed and as luck would have it, i am considering making it larger that just a storage unit for the Garden Tools..
So, out goes the simple 8x8 Shed and in comes something in the 12x12 range.. ;)
I will let you know when you guys can come over and help with the walls.. and bring your own beer please.. LOLOL
Steve
I've always had the theory that," always buy the bigger size, always have a spare, and always build twice as big , and never throw it out, 'cause you might need it....someday"! Downside to this is it turns into a "vicious circle", and soon you will own LOTS of storage space (and it will all be "full")
Quote from: sundancer on October 19, 2017, 12:49:28 PM
I need stuff.. I need to build a Rod..
hehehe, I know that feeling...
welcome to the addiction
HAHAHA
accounts for the 30+ Reels and almost the same number of Rods.. ;)
trying to convince the Wife that i NEEEEED them all..
S
Well, I,m falling for this Spiral Wrapped rod stuff a little more every time I see somebody post stuff..... ???
Thanks for all the info from folks, I,m in now! ;) with the idea of using some old stuff removed from other roller builds, that will keep the cost down and i,m goinna just jump in. Great winter project. It will be fun to test one on a good fish. :o