Reel Repair by Alan Tani

Reel Rebuild Tutorials and Questions => Fin-Nor Tutorials and Questions => Topic started by: funhog on September 11, 2017, 02:21:03 PM



Title: Replacing cork drag system in an old Fin Nor-30 with new cork."What Glue to Use"
Post by: funhog on September 11, 2017, 02:21:03 PM
Found a box of replacement parts that included the cork drag washer for my old FN 30- Lite, I plan to keep it stock as its still a good fish-able reel  My question is: what glue to use to re install with the new cork washer. I read where some have used the Loctite 330. However, I believe it was due to heat issues generated the carbontex/CF up-grades. Im going to keep it stock and I don't think cork has the same heat problems. The cork is quite a bit thicker( about 1/4". I'm not sure, but I think the cork dissipates the heat quicker. Any thought on what they used "Back in the Day", or what I should use that's available today?  Thanks! ...John


Title: Re: Replacing cork drag system in an old Fin Nor-30 with new cork."What Glue to Use"
Post by: alantani on September 11, 2017, 02:22:32 PM
loctite depend 330 is the best around, but it's prohibitively expensive.  i've used ordinary 5 minute epoxy and it's been ok. 


Title: Re: Replacing cork drag system in an old Fin Nor-30 with new cork."What Glue to Use"
Post by: Keta on September 11, 2017, 02:34:00 PM
You should reconsidered upgrading to CF?  I have had thick metal washers to do this cut in the past.


Title: Re: Replacing cork drag system in an old Fin Nor-30 with new cork."What Glue to Use"
Post by: alantani on September 11, 2017, 02:51:28 PM
and yes, switch over to carbon fiber. 


Title: Re: Replacing cork drag system in an old Fin Nor-30 with new cork."What Glue to Use"
Post by: funhog on September 19, 2017, 07:25:57 PM
Thanks for the feedback. I have located all the materials to go either way, Cork or CF. I really enjoy the reel and I'm a little torn on which way to go.
A few questions:
 Cork is soft and the reel has a pretty nice drag curve. Will the CF drag glued to a SS spacer washer to make it the same thickness as the original cork washer flatten or change this up significantly?
 Would cutting several CF washers, then stacking & glueing them with the Lactate 330 (to the reels cleaned-up drag plate) to get to the correct cork thickness be a better option?
 In reading Sal's rebuild of the regal I believe he said he screwed the spacer washer in place with the CF drag on it.?..countersunk screws?
I have the tools and skills. I just need a a little feed back to make the decision. Its caught a lot of fish and one I have confidence in when fishing with it. I don't want to doubts.
thanks!    johnA
 


Title: Re: Replacing cork drag system in an old Fin Nor-30 with new cork."What Glue to Use"
Post by: Keta on September 20, 2017, 06:31:50 AM
I can have a SS plate cut for $3.00-$4.00 and will let you have it for what it cost me, most likely less than the CF material.  I would need dimensions including the thickness you need.


Title: Re: Replacing cork drag system in an old Fin Nor-30 with new cork."What Glue to Use"
Post by: TheReelShop on October 22, 2017, 04:28:49 PM
330 is indeed great. I did one here and the pictures left because of the photobucket image hosting. I will try and post up soon to have a visual.


Title: Re: Replacing cork drag system in an old Fin Nor-30 with new cork."What Glue to Use"
Post by: jurelometer on October 23, 2017, 01:19:58 PM
When lubricated,  max operating  temp of cork composites for clutches ( your reel cork  is probably similar ) around 210F.    Max short term operating temp for 5 minute epoxy around 300F.   So CF/ 5 minute epoxy buys you about 30% more operating temp.

 When cork gets dry it seems to fry,  so you need to stay on top of lubing it frequently, and also make sure that the cork does not get contaminated with another lubricant.  Much more care and feeding than CF.   I really like using Cal's as a drag lube on my cork fly reels.  They use it a lot on cork drags in Australia, not as much in the US.  The high tech drag lube does modernize cork drags a bit,  and I find that I really like cork  when fished within it's limits.  Just can't set it as high or get it as hot as carbon fiber.

Cork has very different properties than carbon, some of them more beneficial including a higher coefficient of friction, and vibration dampening.  You will find that you will need more clamping pressure (including bearing load) for the same drag setting if you switch to carbon.  Do't know if that will affect the ramping once you crank it down extra.   I used to be in the  "cork is old fashioned" camp,  but now have more appreciation for the stuff.  Since the  reel was designed for cork , you are happy with its performance and already have the replacement parts,  sticking with cork is an option.  Unless you have been wearing out drags, or want to fish the reel differently...

Just one opinion,  folks that have done the switch on the same reel will have better data.

-J


Title: Re: Replacing cork drag system in an old Fin Nor-30 with new cork."What Glue to Use"
Post by: Donnyboat on October 23, 2017, 06:29:32 PM
Hi John, CF washers are the best, last for years with little maitanance, Keta has made you a very kind offer, I would run with it, KETA your the man, good stuff mate, cheers Don.


Title: Re: Replacing cork drag system in an old Fin Nor-30 with new cork."What Glue to Use"
Post by: Robert Janssen on October 24, 2017, 01:07:15 AM
Jurelometer's post above nailed it. Read that. I would like to specify though, that cork is not a composite. Use pure cork for this, not a cork & rubber blended material. Further, I would also like to add that Loctite 330 does not have good strength with increased temperature, similar to regular two-part epoxies. See diagram for Loctite 330, taken from their technical data sheet here HERE (http://tds.henkel.com/tds5/Studio/ShowPDF/AA%20330-EN?pid=AA%20330&format=MTR&subformat=REAC&language=EN&plant=WERCS)

However, cork is a very good insulator, so it is unlikely that such temperature would actually be reached in the bond to the substrate, ie the back side of the cork disc, which is relatively thick. Thusly either adhesive could be considered adequate.

Would cutting several CF washers, then stacking & glueing them with the Lactate 330 (to the reels cleaned-up drag plate) to get to the correct cork thickness be a better option?


No. The carbon fiber material is relatively thin and is an excellent conductor of heat. See above regarding bond strength. A better alternative would be to bond a thicker layer of CF to a thicker metal disc (aluminum, brass, stainless) using an adhesive capable of higher temperature, such as Devcon or JB Weld hi-temperature epoxy. I say thicker layer of CF, because it would help in preventing undesireable bleed-through of the adhesive through the fabric. Apply only a very thin layer of adhesive.

.


Title: Re: Replacing cork drag system in an old Fin Nor-30 with new cork."What Glue to Use"
Post by: Donnyboat on October 24, 2017, 05:05:03 AM
Thanks Robert, the diagram is very interesting, I recently worked on an Ambassador 20, the original drag was cork, @ least 3/1 of the cork was missing, I was not imprest, so we epoxied 2, 1mm CF washers together to gain a thicker washer, this posses the question, is there CF sheets thicker than 1mm available that suit drag washer material, and were from. cheers Don.


Title: Re: Replacing cork drag system in an old Fin Nor-30 with new cork."What Glue to Use"
Post by: jurelometer on October 24, 2017, 10:52:28 AM
Hi Robert,

The cork drag disks I have seen are all some sort of composite - the manufacturers don't describe the composite beyond some "space age super polymer" marketing gobledygook.    I always wanted to get my hands on a sheet of the real cork drag material, but could never find anything in limited quantities.

Not sure why they don't go with pure solid cork.   Maybe it is hard to get a consistent product in the size that they need.  Maybe a flat sheet of natural cork is not as tough as chunks of cork bonded together, some end grain, some flat grain( end grain is supposed to wear better and have better rebound)?   Comnsidering what they charge for a reel,  I hope it is not to save a buck on some cork.

Here is a factory cork drag disk on a 12wt Abel fly reel.   Pay no attention to the fancy bearing puller in the upper left corner.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/22/11927_24_10_17_11_45_04.jpeg)


Title: Re: Replacing cork drag system in an old Fin Nor-30 with new cork."What Glue to Use"
Post by: alantani on October 24, 2017, 10:56:09 AM
wow!  i'll bet a carbon fiber drag washer would fit in there just fine!!!!!


Title: Re: Replacing cork drag system in an old Fin Nor-30 with new cork."What Glue to Use"
Post by: Tightlines666 on October 24, 2017, 11:22:12 AM
I thought it was best to leave cork, and canvas dry and clean.

Or replace with CF.

John


Title: Re: Replacing cork drag system in an old Fin Nor-30 with new cork."What Glue to Use"
Post by: jurelometer on October 24, 2017, 12:35:50 PM
Never seen a recommendation for dry cork.  All the fly reel vendors recommend their own lubricant, from pure neatsfoot oil to "special" graphite blends.  If the drags get dry, they will literately start to char and smoke at high settings and high speed runs-  extreme bluewater stuff or more typically youtube parking lot videos.    Real life usage of unlubricated cork drags  means sticky when dry and hydroplaning when wet.   I have one reel that just makes me laugh for it's perfect pig squeal sound effect when the cork starts to get dry - "wheee whee wheeeeeeeeeeee"  I should record it for the worlds most annoying ring tone.

Once a lubricant absorbs into cork,  I have not found a way to get it out, so you are best off choosing what lubricant gets in there.  The other problem is compatibility of what you want to use with what is already there. 

I have no idea what was recommended for conventional reels that used cork.     I always thought that running a cork friction clutch dry is never a good idea.  Before modern materials came out cork was the go to material for friction clutches from motorcycles to machinery.   But it had to be kept lubricated.   I don't think they were ever run dry.  When I read about "wet clutches" on classic car and motorcycle forums- they are talking about systems designed for cork pressure plates.



Title: Re: Replacing cork drag system in an old Fin Nor-30 with new cork."What Glue to Use"
Post by: Robert Janssen on October 24, 2017, 12:42:07 PM
Jurelometer, sorry maybe I misunderstood, but then I don't follow fly reels much. The only cork drags I have seen, including both Fin-Nor and Ambassadeur, have been pure cork granulate.

Cork granulate sheets are inexpensive and widely available. IKEA used to sell (still do?) a pack of 3 mm thick, roughly 18" x 12" sheets as placemats for a few bucks. Thicker cork drink coaster discs too. Maybe hobby stores and such places sell cork too.

...this posses the question, is there CF sheets thicker than 1mm available that suit drag washer material, and were from. cheers Don.

Yes, but not easily available. 1 mm is still thick enough to be preferred over 0.3 mm or 0.5 mm. If that is what is available through Dawn or Ebay, then go with that.

.


Title: Re: Replacing cork drag system in an old Fin Nor-30 with new cork."What Glue to Use"
Post by: Crow on October 24, 2017, 01:11:08 PM
    You're correct.....a lot of "older' off-highway equipment used cork-faced clutches (as well as brake discs) that ran in oil. Usually ATF, and applied constantly by a pump, spraying the disc......and also circulated  through a cooler. Not sure, anymore, what the usual operating temperature was supposed to be, but, if you touched any of the components...you got blisters ! Those type of discs lasted for years..unless they "ran dry" ("operator error !), and then they would burn up in a matter of hours.


Title: Re: Replacing cork drag system in an old Fin Nor-30 with new cork."What Glue to Use"
Post by: Donnyboat on October 24, 2017, 04:08:04 PM
They were using cork round cones to drive shearing plants for many years, the cone with a round metal fly wheel, neats foot oil was used to make them grip, we used to flood the cone with it, took a while to soke the neetsfoot oil up, but it would grip really good, cheers Don.


Title: Re: Replacing cork drag system in an old Fin Nor-30 with new cork."What Glue to Use"
Post by: Rancanfish on October 24, 2017, 05:42:35 PM
I would love to catch the fish that could burn up a cork drag!


Title: Re: Replacing cork drag system in an old Fin Nor-30 with new cork."What Glue to Use"
Post by: Tiddlerbasher on October 25, 2017, 04:08:35 AM
Very few sources for thick cf drag sheets. In the US Avcarb produce the stuff in 1.5mm.
Further afield (CH) there are several manufacturers eg:
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/good-braking-high-abrasion-resistance-carbontex_60500765742.html

I use to use a good reliable provider in Taiwan - they went bust last year - still looking for a new provider.

I did contact Avcarb but they would only ship vast quantities of their product and at highly inflated shipping costs plus customs tax - I'm not that rich :(

I have used a UK made Kevlar drag material with good results. Several of my reels are still using it. It is like a machinable stiff sheet of pressed fibre material - not the familiar woven stuff. I have only used the 1mm thickness - it is available in many thicknesses.
I believe Dawn uses the Avcarb product - perhaps she can source some of the thicker stuff :-\


Title: Re: Replacing cork drag system in an old Fin Nor-30 with new cork."What Glue to Use"
Post by: jurelometer on October 25, 2017, 01:30:15 PM
Jurelometer, sorry maybe I misunderstood, but then I don't follow fly reels much. The only cork drags I have seen, including both Fin-Nor and Ambassadeur, have been pure cork granulate.

Cork granulate sheets are inexpensive and widely available. IKEA used to sell (still do?) a pack of 3 mm thick, roughly 18" x 12" sheets as placemats for a few bucks. Thicker cork drink coaster discs too. Maybe hobby stores and such places sell cork too.


Ahh, but I think they always use a binder along with the cork for the granular sheets.   Usually polyurethane.  I was expecting that there needs to be a binder that is reasonably heat resistant, and also not too abrasive where it might come into contact with the disk. But maybe I am thinking too much. 

One other quick unrelated point on the properties of cork drags.   The cork can permanently compress is stored with the the drag tightened.  It is important to store cork drag reels wit the drag backed all the way off.

Does anybody have the original manuals/paperwork for an old cork lever drag reel?   I am curious as to what was originally recommended for maintenance.  this topic has come up more than once.


Title: Re: Replacing cork drag system in an old Fin Nor-30 with new cork."What Glue to Use"
Post by: Robert Janssen on October 26, 2017, 04:41:19 AM
Quote
Ahh, but I think they always use a binder along with the cork for the granular sheets.   Usually polyurethane.  I was expecting that there needs to be a binder that is reasonably heat resistant, and also not too abrasive where it might come into contact with the disk. But maybe I am thinking too much.  

Idunno, maybe. I spoke with a cork company guy many years ago; he said they didn't use any special binders; they just press it... the granules bind by way of some inherent ingredient. Cork sap resin or something. Pure, safe and natural.

Edit: A quick google shows this to be true. They can use heat and pressure to do it natural-wise, OR with a number of other binders or resins, depending on application.

.


Title: Re: Replacing cork drag system in an old Fin Nor-30 with new cork."What Glue to Use"
Post by: funhog on October 28, 2017, 09:15:47 AM
Totally blown away and grateful for all the really solid comments on this topic! Ive been "work" traveling non stop for the last month and put this project on hold. I just opened-up this topic for the first  time since Keta posted his offer and now my mind is flooded with all the plus's and minus's of whats going to be a fun progect for a fun reel I've had a long memorable history with.