Greetings,
I'm a saltwater fisherman, offshore mostly, with about 5 years experience but no where near expert. Been fascinated by knots since I started, I guess because it's one of the main things I can measurably improve upon even when not fishing. Also, I'm hardheaded, so I tended to not heed advice given to me by seasoned fishers. Made a lot of knot mistakes and lost a lot of fish, but the bright side is that I almost everything I know has been confirmed by direct personal experience. So, for the less hardheaded folks out there, I thought I'd start a thread to help you avoid some knot-related incidents. Like they say, if this helps one person then it's worth it. I would be grateful if others would share their insights. If this has already been done, please delete. Also, sorry if I'm it seems like I'm stating the obvious. So here goes.
- Be skeptical of knots that are claimed to hold 100% of RATED line strength. Most lines I've used are underrated so a knot that breaks at 100% of line rating is ok, but how impressive is that when the ACTUAL breaking strength is 25% higher than the rated strength.
- Using terminal connections (hooks, swivels, jigs, etc.) with an OD equal to or greater than the line usually results in stronger knots. The bends are not as sharp, so there's less stress.
- Running the line through the terminal twice instead of just once usually results in stronger knots.
- A slow, well-tied knot will usually hold better and catch more fish than a fast, poorly tied knot.
- Use the knots YOU tie well, not the ones everyone else is tying, possibly poorly.
- Trust the results and experiences of others but VERIFY them for yourself. Remember, fishermen may exaggerate from time to time. You may go nuts trying to achieve the results others CLAIM they got.
- If a fish takes any drag whatsoever, retie your knot when the fight is over.
- Drag is the line's first line of defense. You may not even need the so-called "best knot" if you drag is set right.
Ok, that's my lot. Who else can add constructive information regarding knots?
Wet or lubricate the knot prior to tightening.
Pay close attention to how the line lays as it is being tightened.
Use the correct amount of pressure for the line type and size when tightening.
Pay attention to tag end length.
When learning to the a given knot on a given tackle type, examine your final product for weakness, damage, etc... and don't be afraid to test it to failure. I like to test swivels too. A sharp quick burst or spike pressure, will cause the knot to behave differently then slow steady increasing pressure, and cyling will affect it differently still. When you have failures, examine the remaining bits to see where/how it failed. Did it unravel or come untied, or did the line break? Where/how did it break? Did it stretch and break, or just part cleanly? Also, notice how springy or stiff a given knot is. This same advice can be extended to crimping, swaging, or alternative line connections as well.
Learn what works, and how to repeat it consistently.
John
JA and John....all good information....I've been fishing since I was knee high to a grasshopper, but It is always good to go back to the basics and re-learn what you "forgot".....Bill
I think the key with knots is to learn 3 or 4 good knots that you can tie consistently that cover your needs to the point that they become 2nd nature. Confidence in what you're doing will lead to getting the most out of your tackle and equipment. And always wet the line when dressing the note.
Wet your knots and when tightening,,,if you see them turn white,,, it got hot cut off start over :D
Knots made odda mono line with alota "wrap overs" can crease the line, possibly weakening it. As John & Benni3 stated, lube the line before cinching it, cinch slowly several times with increasing pressure each time, then check for creasing, especially the section just above the knot.
I use a clinch knot, where I wrap twice around the terminal, twist only 3-4 times, bring tag end through both terminal-wrap loops, then put a granny on the tag(to prevent slippage) and don't tighten too much(let the fish yer about to catch do it).
Also a split ring on the terminal can increase light-lure action and prevent excess knot wear.
Gfish
Quote from: Tightlines666 on September 27, 2017, 09:27:57 PM
Wet or lubricate the knot prior to tightening.
Pay close attention to how the line lays as it is being tightened.
Use the correct amount of pressure for the line type and size when tightening.
Pay attention to tag end length.
When learning to the a given knot on a given tackle type, examine your final product for weakness, damage, etc... and don't be afraid to test it to failure. I like to test swivels too. A sharp quick burst or spike pressure, will cause the knot to behave differently then slow steady increasing pressure, and cyling will affect it differently still. When you have failures, examine the remaining bits to see where/how it failed. Did it unravel or come untied, or did the line break? Where/how did it break? Did it stretch and break, or just part cleanly? Also, notice how springy or stiff a given knot is. This same advice can be extended to crimping, swaging, or alternative line connections as well.
Learn what works, and how to repeat it consistently.
John
Good point, I have seen many "80 lb" swivels straighten out when the drag never got above 20 lbs. Most didnt fail, but were promptly replaced.
Most fishing knots will hold close to the line rating in mono, but that is not the case for braid. There are only a handful of knots that hold strongly and reliably with braid.
Keep an open mind about knots. Like all things, they are constantly developed and improved on.
The knots everyone swore by when I started fishing (improved cinch, back-to-back uni and albright for joining lines) are old hat now; FG, PR and AG Chain knots make them look weak. I have relegated the improved clinch to tying on sinkers these days. I still use a uni knot where strength isn't critical, though.
Quote from: Three se7ens on September 28, 2017, 04:45:17 AM
Most fishing knots will hold close to the line rating in mono, but that is not the case for braid. There are only a handful of knots that hold strongly and reliably with braid.
Simple solution: only ever tie an FG or PR knot in your braid, to join it to a mono leader. These knots are known to be close to 100% when tied properly. Then tie whatever knot you want in the braid.
Tying braid to terminal tackle is a fools errand unless fishing very heavy lines. The thinness of braid makes it readily cut into itself.
Most of the new knots are quite unforgiving if not tied properly. I was always comfortable tying tying braid to mono using a 30-turn Albright, and it may break at 70% of line strength, I never lost a fish because of that. Recently converted to the FG knot and immediately lost a nice fish. Now I tighten the join with all my might after wrapping the braid over rubber grips of pliers/cutters BEFORE cutting the tag end of the mono (leader.) Now that is something they do not tell you in the tutorials. If you do it as they show in youtube videos, your FG knot will most certainly give way on a good fish!
Always test the knot punishingly before fishing it - better to break it on the boat or land than with a fish of a lifetime.
Quote from: ijlal on September 28, 2017, 11:54:11 AM
Most of the new knots are quite unforgiving if not tied properly. I was always comfortable tying tying braid to mono using a 30-turn Albright, and it may break at 70% of line strength, I never lost a fish because of that. Recently converted to the FG knot and immediately lost a nice fish. Now I tighten the join with all my might after wrapping the braid over rubber grips of pliers/cutters BEFORE cutting the tag end of the mono (leader.) Now that is something they do not tell you in the tutorials. If you do it as they show in youtube videos, your FG knot will most certainly give way on a good fish!
Always test the knot punishingly before fishing it - better to break it on the boat or land than with a fish of a lifetime.
I have missed some nice fish,,,,knots, old stock florocarben,,,bad hooks :D
I have a love/hate relationship with the FG knot. Never lost a fish but have had several start to unravel. Right now I'm tying FG with a glob. The tag end is trimmed a little long; maybe 3/16 inch. I hold the knot with only the tag end sticking out between thumb and forefinger and melt the end into a glob with a lighter. If I don't burn my fingers then the line could not have become hot enough to do damage. Then I throw half hitches all the way up to and over the glob. So far, so good, but only time will tell.
-steve
I use a bunch of different knots both old and new. The lube and drawing them up slowly as others have mentioned is very important.
I'm also using a drop of good quality super glue to finish it up. The combination of a good knot and a little dab of glue has worked very well for me over the years.
.................Lou
Quote from: oc1 on September 28, 2017, 08:31:58 PM
I have a love/hate relationship with the FG knot. Never lost a fish but have had several start to unravel. Right now I'm tying FG with a glob. The tag end is trimmed a little long; maybe 3/16 inch. I hold the knot with only the tag end sticking out between thumb and forefinger and melt the end into a glob with a lighter. If I don't burn my fingers then the line could not have become hot enough to do damage. Then I throw half hitches all the way up to and over the glob. So far, so good, but only time will tell.
-steve
This is the "safe" way to tie them - as I'm sure you've worked out, if the wraps slip off the end of the mono the whole knot will fall apart.
Currently I tie mine with 25-30 wraps, pulling tight after every 5 or 6. The first half hitch after the wraps needs to be pulled down hard against the wraps; I tie 4 alternating half-hitches around both the mono and braid, then 4 around just the braid, with a 2-turn rizzuto to finish it. Pull the knot HARD before clipping the tag ends; the braid/mono should change colour at the base of the knot as it "bites".
Using this method I've broken off 100lb leader without the knot failing, so I have a lot of confidence in it.
EDIT: When tieing the half-hitches it is vital that the main line remain straight with the half hitches winding around it; if the half-hitches cause the main to kink I believe it hugely weakens the knot.
Lou beat me to the idea of Super Glue. Especially on a knot like a snell or the loop for same.
I, too, like knots that go thru the terminal or hook eye twice, which is why I favor the Palomar & Double Uni.
Loops cause me trouble sometime. I can tie the Canoeman's easy, but it seems to unravel, so I usually end up with a Double Surgeon's.
Frank
l'll be happy when l can perfect a snell knot - - - takes me about 4 tries to get one correct. ::)
Most of my tackle is crimped for trolling. Now when a welded ring breaks on a big Tuna right before the gaff that wil get you going..!!
Quote from: handi2 on September 28, 2017, 10:28:15 PM
Most of my tackle is crimped for trolling. Now when a welded ring breaks on a big Tuna right before the gaff that wil get you going..!!
I switched over to crimping all my 80lb+ mono as well. I haven't had a line failure at the crimp, or a swivel or ring failure in quite awhile, but if I do, I may rethink.
Quote from: boon on September 28, 2017, 09:06:28 PM
Quote from: oc1 on September 28, 2017, 08:31:58 PM
I have a love/hate relationship with the FG knot. Never lost a fish but have had several start to unravel. Right now I'm tying FG with a glob. The tag end is trimmed a little long; maybe 3/16 inch. I hold the knot with only the tag end sticking out between thumb and forefinger and melt the end into a glob with a lighter. If I don't burn my fingers then the line could not have become hot enough to do damage. Then I throw half hitches all the way up to and over the glob. So far, so good, but only time will tell.
-steve
This is the "safe" way to tie them - as I'm sure you've worked out, if the wraps slip off the end of the mono the whole knot will fall apart.
Currently I tie mine with 25-30 wraps, pulling tight after every 5 or 6. The first half hitch after the wraps needs to be pulled down hard against the wraps; I tie 4 alternating half-hitches around both the mono and braid, then 4 around just the braid, with a 2-turn rizzuto to finish it. Pull the knot HARD before clipping the tag ends; the braid/mono should change colour at the base of the knot as it "bites".
Using this method I've broken off 100lb leader without the knot failing, so I have a lot of confidence in it.
EDIT: When tieing the half-hitches it is vital that the main line remain straight with the half hitches winding around it; if the half-hitches cause the main to kink I believe it hugely weakens the knot.
Today, I put new line on my Okuma TG30II. 600 yds of 65 lb JB Solid and 170 yds of 50 lb Berkley Prospec Chrome top shot. I connected them with a 20-turn FG. After finishing the knot I asked a friend to hold the mono while I wrapped the braid over the rubber grips of a pliers, many turn, both forward and reverse to eliminate slippage. We then pulled as hard as we could without damaging the line to check if it would hold. It did. Making a glob is definitely a good idea. I'll incorporate it in my next knot.
Cheers,
Ijlal
I sense a difference between our saltwater "big fish" anglers & freshwater fishers, although we all can lose fish with poor knots. I have little concept of crimps & chain knots are unknown to me, an inland angler.
Snelling hooks; lots of diff. ways to do it. Festus, I've tried several, including using a Uniknot (since I use the Uni for other purposes), but most seem difficult & the best for me is the so-called "traditional" way with the loop going over the line & hook, then pull tight to cinch the loop closed.
Frank
I can't snell. Please explain the traditional way hooker. Is there a picture somewhere?
-steve
Quote from: oc1 on September 29, 2017, 06:08:20 AM
I can't snell. Please explain the traditional way hooker. Is there a picture somewhere?
-steve
https://www.google.com/search?q=snell+knot&rlz=1C1CHBF_en&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjmy63LvcrWAhVIYiYKHRxhAMkQsAQIJQ&biw=1280&bih=905 (https://www.google.com/search?q=snell+knot&rlz=1C1CHBF_en&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjmy63LvcrWAhVIYiYKHRxhAMkQsAQIJQ&biw=1280&bih=905)
I started out w/ eyeless (spade-eye) hooks, back in the USSR -- hook eyes were a capitalist extravagance, LOL... if you couldn't snell, you couldn't fish :'(
P.S. there's also the "knotless knot" which is a snell that doesn't show up, when you do a search for snell knots:
https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1CHBF_en&biw=1280&bih=905&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=knotless+knot&oq=knotless+knot&gs_l=psy-ab.12..0l2j0i67k1j0.1012732.1016063.0.1022627.9.9.0.0.0.0.317.1555.0j7j1j1.9.0.dummy_maps_web_fallback...0...1.1.64.psy-ab..0.9.1528...0i13k1j0i7i30k1.0.aOibduLVH7Y (https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1CHBF_en&biw=1280&bih=905&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=knotless+knot&oq=knotless+knot&gs_l=psy-ab.12..0l2j0i67k1j0.1012732.1016063.0.1022627.9.9.0.0.0.0.317.1555.0j7j1j1.9.0.dummy_maps_web_fallback...0...1.1.64.psy-ab..0.9.1528...0i13k1j0i7i30k1.0.aOibduLVH7Y)
The knotless knot is universally used by carp and catfish anglers in the UK and Europe. The "bait" is attached to the "hair" that is left after the snelling. It gets a better hook up than putting the bait directly on the hook.
http://www.anglingtimes.co.uk/advice/tips/articles/six-steps-to-the-perfect-hair-rig
There is some evidence that suggests the knotless knot doesn't work so well with mono. When hooked a fish puts a lot of strain, at various angles, on the line as it leaves the eye. The abrasion so caused weakens the mono. It doesn't seem to harm braid - I guess it's because it's much more flexible :-\ I suppose if you are prepared to change your hook length frequently then mono would still work.
The 'hair rig' was developed in the late 1970's by a couple of UK carp fishermen. They tested the rigs in fish tanks to observe the results. Its called a hair rig because it was originally a hair.
There is a thread on here discussing the proper orientation of line going through the eye of a snelled hook. If the line goes through the eye from the wrong side it will abrade mono and be a bad day.
Philaroman, thank you very much for your story. My grandfather made us fish with the eyes cut off of hooks to demonstrate that our snells didn't need the eye. It caught fish, but I always thought it was a stunt. It is nice to know the old man was teaching us a valid fishing method.
Much of my fishing doesn't involve leaders, but I do prefer snelled hooks, if for no other reason than I think it is an elegant solution. Nothing pisses of a deck and on a party boat more than someone fishing with two leaders as opposed to dropper loops when the leaders get tangled with a less experienced fisherman. I really like private boat fishing.
Ron
Ron
Quote from: STRIPER LOU on September 28, 2017, 08:56:36 PM
I use a bunch of different knots both old and new. The lube and drawing them up slowly as others have mentioned is very important.
I'm also using a drop of good quality super glue to finish it up. The combination of a good knot and a little dab of glue has worked very well for me over the years.
.................Lou
Can't argue with success, but I am curious what type of knots Lou is gluing. I have seen it help and hurt depending on the knot and glue used.
Super glues (cynoacrylate) vary in flexibility, water resistance, bonding to nylon (usually not too well) etc. They will not bond at all to polyethylene (spectra/dynema are polyethelene fibers). Generally, CA glues can help lock a knot into place by filling in the gaps, as opposed to actually bonding the material. This can be helpful for some type of knots if flexibility is not an issue and the knot does not spread the load over a series of wraps. Short lifespan of the bond is not an issue if the knot is not used for a long time ( e.g. a terminal knot that will be used for a couple hours).
Stiff CA glue can create a hinge point on some knots, and can screw up a serving knot used to hold hollow braid over mono. The serving knot is an anchor that starts the "finger trap" causing the hollow braid diameter to contract and grip the underlying mono. But stiff CA glue can turn the serving into a rigid tube that is worse than no knot at all. Often the serving will initially hold very well, but the bond will weaken over time and fail when the mono contracts as it stretches under load.
There is not much data on the consumer versions of CA glues, but the professional glues have full spec sheets that describe which materials will bond at what strengh, and percentage of strength remains for accumulated time immersed in water.
The folks that really get into this stuff want a CA glue that is very thin, flexible, and water resistant. Loctite 406 is a favorite, but it is expensive, and needs to be refrigerated if you want it to last. I haven't tried it. https://tds.us.henkel.com/NA/UT/HNAUTTDS.nsf/web/36736C9DBAAAB551882571870000D765/$File/406-2012NEW-EN.pdf (https://tds.us.henkel.com/NA/UT/HNAUTTDS.nsf/web/36736C9DBAAAB551882571870000D765/$File/406-2012NEW-EN.pdf)
There are other adhesives than can be used to prevent servings from fraying, braid tags from unwinding, and smoothing out other knots for passing through the guides. Up until now, I have used Pliobond to coat servings on braided loops over fly lines. Ugly dark brown, but coatings of this stuff used to last forever. It was reformulated (at least the consumer version) to be less toxic. The new stuff hasn't worked for me as well.
I just order some Loon UV Knot Sense. It is clear, cures quickly (sunlight, or a uv lamp at night), and is marketed for coating knots. I couldn't find any description of the chemistry- maybe urethane based?
Hope it works.
-J
For the traditional snell knot (& others), check out www.netknots.com. Tying this way is a lot like whipping the end of a rope (Boy Scouts?) With this method, it is easier for me to keep the wraps in order & not overlapping.
Super Glue & its relatives have their advantages and disadvantages. The thin, watery kind will penetrate between threads and loops of fishing line. In my mind, the idea of using it is not to stick knots together. It isn't really used as an adhesive, but more as a coating to help keep a knot from unraveling. If you use it on a snell on a hook, there is nothing that will be flexing or hinging. It is useful on knots joining the parts of lines used to make fly fishing leaders. Also used if you want to coat the knot used to join "good" line on the outside of a spool to backing line underneath (gotta make sure the glue dries fully before winding on).
Learned to Snell like that 30 years ago and see no reason to do anything different now.
Ron
Quote from: happyhooker on September 30, 2017, 12:41:03 AM
Super Glue & its relatives have their advantages and disadvantages. The thin, watery kind will penetrate between threads and loops of fishing line. In my mind, the idea of using it is not to stick knots together. It isn't really used as an adhesive, but more as a coating to help keep a knot from unraveling. If you use it on a snell on a hook, there is nothing that will be flexing or hinging. It is useful on knots joining the parts of lines used to make fly fishing leaders. Also used if you want to coat the knot used to join "good" line on the outside of a spool to backing line underneath (gotta make sure the glue dries fully before winding on).
Agree with some exceptions. The glue does not coat the knot as much as fill in the voids, which depending on the knot can provide some benefit or make things worse. Maybe we are both trying to say the same thing here?
Re fly leader knots: I wouldn't use CA on a Bimini, Albright, nonslip loop, slim beauty. Not sure about perfection loops, uni and double/ triple surgeons.
Also if you are talking about splicing braided line, the ca glue does a really good job of wicking in between the individual fibers in and adjacent to the knot. I have seen hinging and breakage in this situation where the braid leaves the knot ( Uhhh, a friend of mine. Not me :) ).
If you do use CA glue, I would suggest testing before use and after sustained use, and see if you change your mind.
??? Braid to mono,,,double uni-knot with expoxy
Here's a snell I tie for soft baits( roe, clams, etc.) pic. 1 is the tightened-up finished knot and pic. 2 shows how you pull the leader side back down through the eye and use this loop to chinch the bait to the hook. Sorry but I couldn't photo. the individual steps. 1) push tag end through eye 2) wrap leader end back over hook/tag end 3-5 times 3) tricky part: bring leader back through eye, leave a 3" diameter loop. Hard to describe but the loop's gotta be "twist looped" over itself, 'bout 3 times, toward the back of the hook, then pull leader away from the hook to remove slack.
Basically, step 3 is a standard snell. Knot works best if you can cinch it down on any tougher connective tissue such as the "lip" a clam or the skain of roe.
Gfish
I suspect there was too much generalization about using Super Glue on knots. When jurelometer said he's seen it help or hurt depending on the knot & glue used, I could very well agree & might add the type of line used enters into it too.
For me, a large part of my fishing is using older types of spinning reels for freshwater fishing; I use mono line on them because that is what was the standard back then when these reels were first made. So, my comments about gluing were intended to reflect the mono line I use. For what it's worth, I've glued many knots over the years, and can't recall any issues arising. I usually do not glue knots while I'm on the water because I don't want to wait for the drying. CA may bond almost instantly when used to join to things together, but it takes awhile when just a drop is put on a knot.
C. Boyd Pfeiffer and Gary Soucie were two pretty well known fishing writers, and they both touted the use of CA to seal knots. Deneki Outdoors, who run a bunch of fishing lodges, had a blog where they checked with what they called "some of the industry's best anglers" about rigs they used & claimed many of them coated at least some knots with glue. Zap-A-Gap is a CA, is widely used as a knot sealer and is sold by Cabela's, Orvis, Bass Pro Shops, etc.
Loon's UV Knot Sense is NOT a CA, as far as my limited scientific knowledge goes, but what they call a UV cure adhesive. The stuff has to "cure", either with a special UV light or by leaving it out in the sun. It is supposed to be flexible after curing, which might eliminate many "hinging" issues, and sounds different from (most?) CAs, which cure hard.
Stren use to sell a CA product called "Loc-Knot" & it was supposedly offered to seal knots. I don't know if they offer it anymore, which might reflect any number of things, if true, including that there wasn't enough of a market for it or that it maybe just didn't work.
Frank