I'd like to get some input about members using braid (or braid-like) super-lines with vintage gear. When it comes to fishing I'm a weekend warrior on the surf and jetty. Hoping those that fish more often can provide some practical, experience-based info. I know braid does not stand up to abrasion well, but I'm more concerned about how it might abrade other materials. Here are some things I've heard, and am not sure what to believe.
- Older conventionals (Jigmasters, Squidders, etc. ) can be used with heavier braid, 50# plus. Thinner ones will tend to slip behind the spool. There is a guy I know of that fishes strictly vintage gear with braid.
- Older penn Spinfishers can be used with 20-30# braid, and for some reason, Fireline fused is preferred over others like Powerpro.
- Rods used for braid should have guides with hardened materials, or they will wear grooves, under pressure and abrasion from braid.
- Have also heard contrary -- heavy 50# plus braid on nickel-plated wire guides works fine, and does not wear out the guides.
- I know about thumb-burning when cast braid on a conventional reel, but there are ways around that.
I was in a very professional tackle shop in Jersey and overheard a customer ask the salesman there (who appeared to be experienced) to put 30# Power Pro on his new Penn 706Z. The salesman gave his warning, "Well, this reel was not made to be braid-ready." When I heard that, my silent reaction was, "Baloney!" Hey, the shop has to make its money; I get that, but it makes me wonder to what extent the term "braid ready" may be a marketing ploy, versus a physical fact.
What is the real deal?
I run braid on a lot of my vintage tackle, especially z series reels. My favorite go to reel is a Penn 714z with 15lb pp braid. The only conventionals I have loaded with braid are vintage 109s with 30lb USA braid. I have used different braids on the reels none really out performed or worked better than others. My only OCD is that I always load the braid on the reels by hand not by winder.
LOL...... I go with the marketing ploy, but it is possible that it can get in between the spool and frame I suppose. My dad had an old Penn 500 that did that with mono, was a big pain.
Braid abrades your fingers when you try to lay it neatly on a spool using a conventional reel. In other words, it cuts your fingers till they bleed and probably worse when wet.
Just for the record, at one stage I used stainless steel guides on my rods, they were unbreakable, true, but mono cut grooves in it!
On quite a few of my reels, I'm going back to mono.
For two reasons, one - un-doable knots with my old eyes & two - I really don't like braid cuts.
But, I will never use anything but braid for bottom fishing. Feeling every little bump is like have antennae on your hands.
I put 14lb Berkeley MonoFil braid on one of my Stradics for distance casting this year, then never used it. ::)
I guess I'm no help...
Quote from: Decker on November 03, 2017, 03:25:47 PM
I'd like to get some input about members using braid (or braid-like) super-lines with vintage gear. When it comes to fishing I'm a weekend warrior on the surf and jetty. Hoping those that fish more often can provide some practical, experience-based info. I know braid does not stand up to abrasion well, but I'm more concerned about how it might abrade other materials. Here are some things I've heard, and am not sure what to believe.
- Older conventionals (Jigmasters, Squidders, etc. ) can be used with heavier braid, 50# plus. Thinner ones will tend to slip behind the spool. There is a guy I know of that fishes strictly vintage gear with braid.
- Older penn Spinfishers can be used with 20-30# braid, and for some reason, Fireline fused is preferred over others like Powerpro.
- Rods used for braid should have guides with hardened materials, or they will wear grooves, under pressure and abrasion from braid.
- Have also heard contrary -- heavy 50# plus braid on nickel-plated wire guides works fine, and does not wear out the guides.
- I know about thumb-burning when cast braid on a conventional reel, but there are ways around that.
I was in a very professional tackle shop in Jersey and overheard a customer ask the salesman there (who appeared to be experienced) to put 30# Power Pro on his new Penn 706Z. The salesman gave his warning, "Well, this reel was not made to be braid-ready." When I heard that, my silent reaction was, "Baloney!" Hey, the shop has to make its money; I get that, but it makes me wonder to what extent the term "braid ready" may be a marketing ploy, versus a physical fact.
What is the real deal?
Hi Joe,
I hope this answers your questions. This is based on my personal experiences.
Quote from: Decker on November 03, 2017, 03:25:47 PM
- Older conventionals (Jigmasters, Squidders, etc. ) can be used with heavier braid, 50# plus. Thinner ones will tend to slip behind the spool. There is a guy I know of that fishes strictly vintage gear with braid.
Even 50# braid can get behind the spool. In fact, I have help other with 40# mono getting behind the spool of a jigmaster. One just needs to pay more attention while guiding line on the reel or go bigger, irrespective of whether it's braid or mono. Line slippage behind the spool really depends on the tolerances and gap between the side plates and the spool, not only the line diameter.
Quote from: Decker on November 03, 2017, 03:25:47 PM- Older penn Spinfishers can be used with 20-30# braid, and for some reason, Fireline fused is preferred over others like Powerpro.
This is just a preference thing. I have found that Fireline, being fuse, is stiffer than most braided lines. I'm sure certain people that that stiffness as it reminds them of mono.
Quote from: Decker on November 03, 2017, 03:25:47 PM- Rods used for braid should have guides with hardened materials, or they will wear grooves, under pressure and abrasion from braid.
There was a problem with old, uncoated braided lines grooving into non-ceramic and non-carbide guides. Most braids today have some type of coating, and that has resolved the issue of guides being grooved due to the use of braid. Like Cor mentioned, I have seen guides grooved with mono as well. So it's the quality of the
Quote from: Decker on November 03, 2017, 03:25:47 PM- Have also heard contrary -- heavy 50# plus braid on nickel-plated wire guides works fine, and does not wear out the guides.
Please see my response above.
Quote from: Decker on November 03, 2017, 03:25:47 PM- I know about thumb-burning when cast braid on a conventional reel, but there are ways around that.
I burn my thumb on the very first cast irrespective of mono or braid. Nothing that pouring water on the line on the first cast doesn't solve. I also wrap my thumb with flexwrap (Coban), that that also solves that problem.
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Quote from: Decker on November 03, 2017, 03:25:47 PMI was in a very professional tackle shop in Jersey and overheard a customer ask the salesman there (who appeared to be experienced) to put 30# Power Pro on his new Penn 706Z. The salesman gave his warning, "Well, this reel was not made to be braid-ready." When I heard that, my silent reaction was, "Baloney!" Hey, the shop has to make its money; I get that, but it makes me wonder to what extent the term "braid ready" may be a marketing ploy, versus a physical fact.
What is the real deal?
To me, "braid ready" signifies that I can tie the braid right to the spool without any additional means, such as flexwrap, tape,... on the spool before the line goes on so the braid doesn't slip on the spool. Is it baloney? I wouldn't say that, but maybe a difference of interpretation/understanding of what "braid ready" is intended to mean.
Note that when I am using braid, I commonly wrap my left forefinger and thumb with flexwrap to protect my fingers from cut, because it will cut you. I may wrap all of my fingers on both hands depending on how I'm fishing, holding the line,...
I think that there are definitely changes that have been made over the years to make reels more compatible with braid.
Modern spinning reels use different types of oscillation technology to line braid evenly. For example, the baitrunner D series uses an elliptical gear. The stellas and stradics use worm gears to time it perfectly. I think the reason Fireline is preferred on 704s is because it's super thick. If you watch the oscillation of an old spinfisher, it moves up and down very quickly. Compare that to the movement of a modern Shimano and you'll see how it lays braid more evenly and without crisscrossing as much.
Thanks. My biggest concern has been that I might groove metal guides.
Quote from: Cor on November 03, 2017, 04:20:00 PM
LOL...... I go with the marketing ploy
X2
I don't need manufacturers overcharging me to make a reel "braid-ready" -- I can do that myself at a fraction of the cost. my concern is whether a reel is
BRAID-WORTHY!!!Quote from: FatTuna on November 03, 2017, 06:40:45 PM
I think that there are definitely changes that have been made over the years to make reels more compatible with braid.
Modern spinning reels use different types of oscillation technology to line braid evenly. For example, the baitrunner D series uses an elliptical gear. The stellas and stradics use worm gears to time it perfectly. I think the reason Fireline is preferred on 704s is because it's super thick. If you watch the oscillation of an old spinfisher, it moves up and down very quickly. Compare that to the movement of a modern Shimano and you'll see how it lays braid more evenly and without crisscrossing as much.
X2,000,000
LINE-LAY -- more specifically, the mechanism that determines line-lay, is the most important factor because it's permanently built into the reel & cannot be altered. you may be able to upgrade line rollers & level-wind guides, find various tweaks/mods/pratices to somewhat compensate for loose tolerances, back the braid w/ tape/mono, move the reel to a braid-worthy rod, etc... but if you can't get braid-worthy line-lay, you're "intercoursed"
P.S., doesn't have to be that "modern": 25-year-old Japanese worm-gear oscillation works beautifully -- better than brand-new Malaysian eliptical
I think that surf fishing is a style of fishing where your gear choice is especially important. For one, you are in a fixed location. You have to carry everything with you. You only fish one combo at a time. Weight is a huge consideration. Especially if you are casting lures all day. Your gear has to deal with more abuse. You are fishing in a sand, rock, and saltwater environment. If not properly maintained, a surf reel can get destroyed after a single dunking.
With bass numbers being as low as they are, I like to give myself the best chance of catching a fish. You want something that casts as far as possible. Sometimes fish are really close in but other times they are just out of reach. It's incredibly frustrating to see fish breaking but not be able to get to them. Being able to cast an extra 50 feet could be the difference between getting hit on every cast or catching a skunk. Personally, I like St Croix surf rods a lot. I owned an Avid that was really nice but now I have two 10' Mojos. My next rod with most likely be an 11' Avid Surf. I feel the low rider guides handle braid much better than traditional guides.
Line choice is really important in shore fishing. Some braids like Fireline are very wiry and tough. I don't think I've ever broken 30lb. It's really thick and casts terribly but it's better for fishing around rocks. Other braids like Super Slick are soft and cast really well. The down side is that it's really vulnerable to breaking if you get it near anything abrasive. Might make sense to have two combos. One for jetty fishing and one for the beach. Another way to do it would be to have two spools and just swap them.
You are much more likely to damage an old reel with mono or nylon braid than with spectra/dyneema (PE) braid. "Braid ready" is a term they invented when Spider Wire and Fireline first came out and they were having trouble with it slipping on the spool. With mono or nylon you could just loop the line around the spool arbor and it will never slip because of the compression. Spectra does not stretch or compress. Spectra can change the line lay on an older spinner simply be being thinner than the mono it was designed for. It will shift the line lay toward the nose a bit and you have to be careful not to over-fill it. Still, the casting distance with spectra will be better than it was with mono because of there is less friction and wind resistance.
Dyneema/spectra was a revolutionary change. Being only one-third the diameter of mono with the same breaking strength, meant that reels using spectra could be much smaller too. The transition from mono to dyneema was as dramatic a shift as the transition from silk and linen to braided nylon and monofilament. There were purists who resisted the change from natural fiber to synthetics just as there are those who resist the change from mono to dyneema.
I can't remember the last time I used mono. It must be 25 or 30 years now and I have never missed it for a moment.
-steve
Thanks for the comments, guys. I get the difference about how it grips the spool, and how the line lay of the newer spinning reels is a lot tighter.
FT: I appreciate you pointing out the difference between fireline and softer braids. I'm still working up to buying a modern surf plugging rod :)
In addition to what Steve said about mono compression, my guess is that mono holds more moisture, long term, on the spool. Corrosion near the spindle of a spool seems more likely with mono than braid.
Spool capacity is a huge upside. Think about filling up a Jigmaster 500 with braid... that could fish some seriously deep water! On the other hand, a 99 or 501 sized reel holds plenty of braid for most fishing.
Lots a good info. on this thread. I used to think it was a marketing ploy to get novice anglers to perhaps think :" it says "Braid Ready" I gotta buy this one, 'cause the others I was lookin at didn't say that and I don't wanna wreck my new stuff".
Gfish
More marketing crap really. Some of the original braid wasn't particularly rod ring friendly. Then again some of the original rod rings weren't that robust :)
Most braids and modern equipment play pretty well together :) I personally haven't had any problems in the last decade or so.
I think many of the original problems came from tying braid to spools. A simple 3 or 4 wraps around the spool then an arbor knot (or uni whatever) and leave a long tag. If you are paranoid :-\ use flex wrap first - but it ain't really necessary ;)
I bought a "braid ready" spinning reel thinking somehow it would prevent wind knots, no such luck. Not sure why that happens. I use 20lb power pro for fishing small grubs in the surf. Any idea what I'm doing wrong?
I remember when braid came out all the hoopla over how it was going to destroy tackle, cut everyones fingers off and just cause mayhem. None of it came to pass and it revolutionized salt water fishing in many ways. Good stuff
Quote from: Swami805 on November 04, 2017, 02:17:57 AM
I bought a "braid ready" spinning reel thinking somehow it would prevent wind knots, no such luck. Not sure why that happens. I use 20lb power pro for fishing small grubs in the surf. Any idea what I'm doing wrong?
The times I have gotten wind knots it has been either because the spool was a bit overfilled, or because there wasn't enough tension on the line as it was wound on the spool. The wind knot happens when the line comes off the spool several rings at once. Probably you'd do better with less line. Hope that helps.
Thanks that does make sense. It happens surf fishing with a grub on a Carolina rig. it gets washed up on the beach by the surf on the retrieve so there is some slack at times.
I get the line wrapped around tip guides. Jiggle a long whippy rod with loose line and the tip can twirl around in a circle and tangle everything up. That would happen much less with mono. The only remedy is to keep the line tight when fiddling with the jig.
-steve
Quote from: Decker on November 04, 2017, 03:15:20 AM
Quote from: Swami805 on November 04, 2017, 02:17:57 AM
I bought a "braid ready" spinning reel thinking somehow it would prevent wind knots, no such luck. Not sure why that happens. I use 20lb power pro for fishing small grubs in the surf. Any idea what I'm doing wrong?
The times I have gotten wind knots it has been either because the spool was a bit overfilled, or because there wasn't enough tension on the line as it was wound on the spool. The wind knot happens when the line comes off the spool several rings at once. Probably you'd do better with less line. Hope that helps.
braid needs a certain minimal amount of resistance on the retrieve. if your terminal tackle doesn't have enough weight (or spinning blade, or crankbait bill) & you don't catch something (fish/stick/salad/whatever) every few casts, you have to manually re-pack it onto the spool
even braid ready reels have problems with braid
and non braid ready reel being used with braid is a disaster waiting to happen for all sorts of reasons.
btw I hate braid in any reel
Quote from: glos on November 04, 2017, 04:21:04 PM
even braid ready reels have problems with braid
and non braid ready reel being used with braid is a disaster waiting to happen for all sorts of reasons.
btw I hate braid in any reel
no kidding glos! i just bought braid! buzzkill!
steve
Quote from: glos on November 04, 2017, 04:21:04 PM
even braid ready reels have problems with braid
and non braid ready reel being used with braid is a disaster waiting to happen for all sorts of reasons.
btw I hate braid in any reel
Really? I have braid on most of my reels without any issues whatsoever. I have to be more attentive fishing braid but love the feeling I get when fishing braid due to the non-stretch of the braid. I have to be careful sometimes as I have flung fish out of the water setting the hook because it it.
I fish it, mostly on small spinners, in fresh water, and like it....after the "learning curve", that is ! It WILL cut you like a razor....so no grabbing the line and giving a big tug , to tear loose from a snag ! There is ")" stretch....so, I, Too, have "launched" a fish, or two, on the hook set....and , it's easy to straighten small hooks (the rod is the only "spring" you have to cushion the hook set, or any "lunges" that the fish makes. Also, the drag needs to be "smooth"any "jerking", with a zero stretch line really stresses the hooks, etc.)
I do wish there was more resistance to abrasion , and yes, it will "cut guides".....but, I've cut guides with mono, dacron, and old school nylon lines, too....maybe not as fast, but, the newer guide materials have helped with that problem.
I think everything has it's place, and the bottom line is to use the gear...and system, that works for you....something you are both comfortable with, and have confidence in .
I think the idea of a braid ready rod may be more appropriate. Fuji make some excellent guides that really help reduce ring wrap and wind knots. Of course poor casting technique don't help - I know :(
Braid is lighter than mono, for a given breaking strain, it will get blown around more.
Part of being "braid ready" is having a guide design where the feet of the guide encourage any line that loops up to slide back over the guide rather than getting hung up.
The other key factor is having a guide with a quality insert. I have seen rods with the old chrome plated guides where the braid has cut into it like a saw, which also quickly frays the braid.
In terms of reels.... good line lay is important, quality line guide if it's a level-wind, and tight tolerances so line can't get where it shouldn't.
Last but certainly not least it needs to have way more drag output, and be built to handle it, than a "mono" reel of equivalent size.
Quote from: boon on November 06, 2017, 06:38:05 AM
The other key factor is having a guide with a quality insert. I have seen rods with the old chrome plated guides where the braid has cut into it like a saw, which also quickly frays the braid.
Can anyone give more details from experience about the guides getting cut? I don't know much about rod engineering & construction at this point, and like using vintage rods for slower action and slower wallet drain. Also, I'm a weekend warrior surf & jetty (occasionally inshore party boat) guy who tends to buy used equipment from other weekend warriors.
- Is there more pressure on the tip guide, so that it is more likely to get cut? Or maybe the stripping guide too?
- How do aluminum oxide guides hold up?
- Is thicker braid or "fused braid" less likely to cut?
- What about drag pressure?
- I assume the type of fishing that puts more constant pressure on the guides is more likely to wear them, like bottom-fishing with heavy lead. For plugging there wouldn't be much pressure until fighting a fish. Trolling is not even a possibility at this point.
Thanks,
/Joe
Quote from: oc1 on November 03, 2017, 08:20:02 PM
I can't remember the last time I used mono. It must be 25 or 30 years now and I have never missed it for a moment.
-steve
It was easy for me to go all braid, all my reels except my only spinner were always filled with dacron with mono on top. Many years later I learned I was using " topshots". I still use 40 year old dacron and my grandkids will inherit my Spectra.
For bottom fishing and steelhead sensitivity is impontant, troling not so much.
Quote from: Decker on November 06, 2017, 03:22:11 PM
Quote from: boon on November 06, 2017, 06:38:05 AM
The other key factor is having a guide with a quality insert. I have seen rods with the old chrome plated guides where the braid has cut into it like a saw, which also quickly frays the braid.
Can anyone give more details from experience about the guides getting cut? I don't know much about rod engineering & construction at this point, and like using vintage rods for slower action and slower wallet drain. Also, I'm a weekend warrior surf & jetty (occasionally inshore party boat) guy who tends to buy used equipment from other weekend warriors.
- Is there more pressure on the tip guide, so that it is more likely to get cut? Or maybe the stripping guide too?
- How do aluminum oxide guides hold up?
- Is thicker braid or "fused braid" less likely to cut?
- What about drag pressure?
- I assume the type of fishing that puts more constant pressure on the guides is more likely to wear them, like bottom-fishing with heavy lead. For plugging there wouldn't be much pressure until fighting a fish. Trolling is not even a possibility at this point.
Thanks,
/Joe
Tips and stripper guides are the 2 that I see suffer the most. As you mentioned, it's more likely on rods that have loads on them, such as heavy lead on deep-dropping rods, and higher drag. I've found the thickness of the braid seems to make little difference to the outcome.
Even cheaper/older guides with the aluminium oxide inserts should be mostly OK. It's much more of a problem when the guide uses a metal ring.
I've not seen any wear with aluminum oxide inserts. More likely to incur a chip to the ceramic banging it around. No way I'd put braid on squidder or jiggy for surf casting. Too big and you'll never get out the little knots. I have braid on most of my SS's. No issue surf fishing, popping, bottom fishing. I use a leader of fluoro long enough to get a few turns on spool with double uni knot. No cuts. If you hang up , wrap around rod and pull straight back or use a rag. No cuts.
I use 80lb PP on 9500ss for grouper. No issue.
I troll and live bait with mono only.
Been building rods for decades, well over 3000 so far. I offer free labor replacement for broken guides and most clients take me up on it. I have yet to see one guide ruined by braid. I've used Chrome pacbay, perfection and mildrum guides since I started in the 70's and never seen one grooved, the tips have a hardened rings I believe is carborundum (SP?) also won't groove. I also use guides with various ring material. I've seen a few tips on junky rods grooved by mono and/or braid, quality components should be fine. Some how that was a concern when braid came out and it just never died.
I do get some back with the front leg of fuji and alps guides broken from casting. They use heavy mono joined to braid with a knot and cast heavy sinkers. Overtime the force of the knot breaks the guide at the base of the eye frame where it joins to the front foot. The rings are fine,the frame is the weak point but it's the knot,not the braid.
Braid has it's drawbacks but slicing up guides isn't one of them, buy good quality gear and you'll be fine
Quote from: Swami805 on November 07, 2017, 04:33:11 AM
Been building rods for decades, well over 3000 so far. I offer free labor replacement for broken guides and most clients take me up on it. I have yet to see one guide ruined by braid. I've used Chrome pacbay, perfection and mildrum guides since I started in the 70's and never seen one grooved, the tips have a hardened rings I believe is carborundum (SP?) also won't groove. I also use guides with various ring material. I've seen a few tips on junky rods grooved by mono and/or braid, quality components should be fine. Some how that was a concern when braid came out and it just never died.
I do get some back with the front leg of fuji and alps guides broken from casting. They use heavy mono joined to braid with a knot and cast heavy sinkers. Overtime the force of the knot breaks the guide at the base of the eye frame where it joins to the front foot. The rings are fine,the frame is the weak point but it's the knot,not the braid.
Braid has it's drawbacks but slicing up guides isn't one of them, buy good quality gear and you'll be fine
Wow you've made many rods! Ive only done maybe 30 but that is recreational.
I've never seen a modern guide with any type of hard ring insert show damage from braid and for that matter not from mono either. I have experienced braid wrapping around a guide during casting and perhaps it's conceivable that the momentum of a hard cast with a heavy device could rip or bend a guide when suddenly stopped by 80lb braid, but have never heard of or see that either.
However old style metal guides without hard ring inserts do get cut by mono and I am sure braid as well.
Most of us use leaders of some sort and the knot in either mono to mono or braid to mono can be very bulky and I am certain that knot passing through the guides at speed will dislodge rings or break them, but that does not happen much either.
I repair many guides for friends, but its difficult to tell how or why they broke. Most must be from falls or bumps.
I have over 50 rods with braid and have never grooved a guide or cut a finger. I will admit that casting spinning rods with braid does irritate my finger, so I tape it. One thing to remember is that "braid" in one form or another has been around longer than mono, so when you say "braid", it helps to identify what kind. I fully believe that most of the horror stories about braid are either about some of the first spectra or are from people that are resistant to change. BTW, the only guides I've seen grooved were from mono or sand on the line.
Quote from: Swami805 on November 04, 2017, 02:17:57 AM
I bought a "braid ready" spinning reel thinking somehow it would prevent wind knots, no such luck. Not sure why that happens. I use 20lb power pro for fishing small grubs in the surf. Any idea what I'm doing wrong?
I remember when braid came out all the hoopla over how it was going to destroy tackle, cut everyones fingers off and just cause mayhem. None of it came to pass and it revolutionized salt water fishing in many ways. Good stuff
It is the rod eye set up, maybe the first eye is too close to the reel - see modern spinning reels with the reduction guides and they are very carefully spaced, they work really well, but added to that you have possibly over filled the reel. Modern braid friendly guides also are much kinder to he braid itself resulting in it lasting longer.
The only grooved rings I've ever had are on fly rod tip tops I guess dirt/grit on the fly line and repetitive casting was the cause.
I have cut myself with Spectra and have replaced eyes on 2 rods that were grooved by braid. These rods were used for kokanee trolling.
If you hook into something good with an old direct drive knuckle buster filled with spectra and try to stop the spool with your thumb it will burn you. You knew that. But did you know that the same reel spinning with the same force and speed but loaded with mono, braided nylon, dacron, silk or linen will burn your thumb more. Linen is the worst of the lot for thumb burn. The heat build-up is from friction, right? Isn't abrasion caused by friction too? I don't think spectra is inherently abrasive. It is just strong and thin so you concentrate the friction of line running over a guide into a smaller area.
If you like fishing with 12 lb monofilament nylon, then you should try putting 40 lb spectra on the same rod and reel. They are both about 0.33 mm diameter. Match the diameters instead of the pound test. One of the characteristics we look for in good mono is suppleness and the spectra braid is more supple. Being made of ultra high molecular weight polyethylene, spectra of the same diameter is much more abrasion resistant than mono too.
So, spectra braid is less abrasive, much more abrasion resistant and much stronger than monofilament of the same diameter. The only thing not to like is the price. 300 yards of 12 pound Stren monofilament will cost you about eight bucks. 300 yards of 40 pound Power Pro braid will cost you about thirty bucks.
-steve
Lee - for those of us from other parts of the world - what is 'Kokanee trolling' - and what different forces does it put on fishing line?
small, finicky salmon species... most limber, soft-tipped 7-9' conventional rods; thinnest line you can get away with
Quote from: philaroman on November 07, 2017, 10:05:59 PM
small, finicky salmon species... most limber, soft-tipped 7-9' conventional rods; thinnest line you can get away with
8"-16" landlocked sockeye salmon. They are soft mouthed.
I just threw out a bunch of rods that all had grooved guides. One even had a grooved/damaged roller tip. All had been used for deep-dropping with 30oz+ of lead and heavy braid. None of them were worth rebuilding; I got them as part of a deal and none of them were terribly spectacular.
Quote from: oc1 on November 07, 2017, 08:34:27 PMBeing made of ultra high molecular weight polyethylene, spectra of the same diameter is much more abrasion resistant than mono too.
So, spectra braid is less abrasive, much more abrasion resistant and much stronger than monofilament of the same diameter. The only thing not to like is the price. 300 yards of 12 pound Stren monofilament will cost you about eight bucks. 300 yards of 40 pound Power Pro braid will cost you about thirty bucks.
-steve
Tight Lines !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2ilksQgUMg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2ilksQgUMg)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9wWCtxeRIk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9wWCtxeRIk)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unZzUPMBQl8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unZzUPMBQl8)
This whole concept of 'braid ready' is really a misnomer, or at least should be these days. However, there is obviously a commercial benefit slant to using the word in advertising.
Most rods should be labelled 'braid friendly' if they have good quality ceramic insert guides. Using only the Fuji range of inserts for discussion, as you progress from 'O', to 'A' to 'SiC' to 'T' in their current range, the materials get progressively harder, and take the diamond polishing process better - so end up microscopically smoother - and hence less aggressive to braided spectra lines when used under pressure.
Fuji also addressed the issues of windknots in surf rods using braid back in the 1990's with the introduction of their Low Rider guides, where the spacing (critical), orientation and frame design all work to effectively eliminate windknots. This guide scheme replaced the old fashioned concept of big eye guides reducing down in size up the length of the rod, and very effectively as well. It was however, pretty much limited to long surf rods. Later they developed a series of guides called 'K' series, where the forward facing shape and redesign of the frames significantly reduced the number of windknots, by removing places where the braid could wrap around frame spars. The 'K' series doesn't prevent windknots, it just allows the formation and then untangles the partial knot.
However, because of a reluctance of the angling public to accept that on spinning type rods to use much smaller first guides, because it so challenges what we have all been brought up with - big eyed guides, the formation of windknots persevered. Until Fuji came up with their latest guide layout design called the K-R Concept. This concept takes the coils of braid coming off the reel, and very quickly forces those coils through a rapid reduction set of guides, to the point where the spiral aspect of the braided line becomes virtually straight - and at thios point Fuji recommend very small eyed guides up the remainder of the rod.
When spaced correctly, and with the appropriate sizing of K-R guides, nearly every spinning rod can now become virtually windknot free. And here the word virtually is very relevant. For if braid is not wound onto the reel under reasonable pressure, then loose coils will attemt to cause problems with the next cast.
Windknots generally occur when the speed of line approaching the guides, cannot be accomodated by the guide layout design - then bunching of line occurs at the guide, and eventually this bunch overtakes the guide, wraps around a frame component, and then eventually gets pulled tight - 1 windknot!! Design the guides to cope with the volume, speed and harmonics of the line, and the windknot problem goes away.
Braid is often blamed for a lot of problems that occur on rods, that have not been design to be 'braid friendly'.
As a footnote. I have seen very many solid wire guides damaged/grooved by use with braided spectra. Thsi comes back to the hardness of the chromed steel used, for it is nowehere near as hard as say an aluminium oxide ceramic.
Hope that clears up some points about this topic - have expressed what we have found out in our rod building business, with the recent (last 5 years) transition of our surf fishery into almost exclusive use of braid and spinning reels, from ligt to very heacy applications.
Cheers from sunny Africa.
Jeri
I've been leaving mono behind myself these days. One thing I think I have figured out is that conventional reels need heavier braid than spinning reels.
I purchased a VS 200 on Ebay, it came spooled with a light braid, I'd have to think 20-30 lb. Even though it was new I was going to change the line anyway and I needed to spool a Abu 8600 Striper with braid for a fluke trip so I took it off the VS.
On a spinning reel it works fine because as the line is wound back onto the reel it crosses over itself with every rotation. But on the Abu I found that when I reeled up from 80 ft with a 4-5 lb. fish the braid would bury itself and I'd have to pull it out on the next drop down. This Abu isn't a level wind so I'm not sure if that would help, in the meantime my left thumb was busy.