Reel Repair by Alan Tani

Reel Rebuild Tutorials and Questions => Penn Senator Tutorials and Questions => Topic started by: C Michael Bergen on January 11, 2018, 06:52:09 PM



Title: US113n binding at high drag??
Post by: C Michael Bergen on January 11, 2018, 06:52:09 PM
Hey guys!

Just got one of these bad boys (second hand) and am a little confused. I was under the impression that these reels didn't bind at high drag settings. I've got to twist the star pretty tight but it's definitely binding pretty bad when i do. Normal or something amiss on this reel?
Thanks for any insight!


Title: Re: US113n binding at high drag??
Post by: Bryan Young on January 11, 2018, 07:23:59 PM
Is it binding at the sideplate?  If so, you may need a spacer or new, uncompressed drag washers


Title: Re: US113n binding at high drag??
Post by: C Michael Bergen on January 12, 2018, 02:46:12 AM
Not sure how to ascertain where it's binding. All i know is that it requires increased force to turn the handle at high drag settings.  Are you confirming that this should not be the case?





Title: Re: US113n binding at high drag??
Post by: Alto Mare on January 12, 2018, 03:36:37 AM
also, check the rim on the spool on both sides on top, where it would make contact with the frame and not the side plates. See if you notice any rubbing marks there. You need to look really close, silver isn't as easy to spot.

Sal


Title: Re: US113n binding at high drag??
Post by: Penn on January 12, 2018, 04:22:19 AM
Not sure how to ascertain where it's binding. All i know is that it requires increased force to turn the handle at high drag settings.  Are you confirming that this should not be the case?





Michael,

Try adding a .010" thick shim on top of part # 9.  Did you check the amount of drag the reel had when you cranked the star fully tight?  These reels max out at 28lbs.

tony


Title: Re: US113n binding at high drag??
Post by: C Michael Bergen on January 12, 2018, 05:17:39 AM
The spool rim is not rubbing. No line on spool so can't check drag rating. Adding thickness to the spacing sleeve with a shim seems like addressing a symptom, not the actual problem.  There's only 100 or so parts in the durn thing so it can't be too difficult to figure out the issue. Guess it's time to take it apart. Going fishing this morning so it'll have to wait. Thanks for the suggestions guys.  I'll check back in after I've  pulled it apart.


Title: Re: US113n binding at high drag??
Post by: Bryan Young on January 12, 2018, 05:23:53 AM
Not sure how to ascertain where it's binding. All i know is that it requires increased force to turn the handle at high drag settings.  Are you confirming that this should not be the case?

Look to see if the star is contacting the side plate.

If you back-off the star slightly, does the binding go away?  If so, then likely you will need to shim under the star.  It's also likely that one of the two spring washers is facing the wrong direction.  The spring washers under the star could be configured "bearing" then  )( or )) then "star clicker", then star when they should be configured "bearing" then  () then "star clicker."

And as you have stated, the reel was purchased Second Hand, so there is also a possibility that the previous owner may have disassembled the reel and may have installed the reel incorrectly or may have missed installing a part.

Here is a tutorial of a very similar reel.  http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=14.0  In fact, I'm sure many would argue that this is the same reel.  I say it's not.  Just look at the color of the reel.   ;)

Therefore, I would first and only do the following steps:

Remove the handle arm cap
Remove the handle arm nut
Remove the Handle
Unscrew the star
Remove the star clicker device
This will take you to the spring washers

Would you please take a picture of the spring washers configuration.

Remove the spring washers and inspect them for cracks

Take a picture of the gear sleeve with the side plate and the gear sleeve bearing.

Then post the pictures by going to the + Additional Options and under Attach: Choose File.  Upload the picture.  Click on (more attachments) then Choose File and upload the picture.  You can upload up to 4 pictures per post.

This will give us an idea what is going on.



Title: Re: US113n binding at high drag??
Post by: Penn on January 12, 2018, 05:41:23 AM
The spool rim is not rubbing. No line on spool so can't check drag rating. Adding thickness to the spacing sleeve with a shim seems like addressing a symptom, not the actual problem.  There's only 100 or so parts in the durn thing so it can't be too difficult to figure out the issue. Guess it's time to take it apart. Going fishing this morning so it'll have to wait. Thanks for the suggestions guys.  I'll check back in after I've  pulled it apart.

What we have seen in the past, guys cranking down the drag to 40 + lbs. and even know the reel may be able to handle that we only recommend 27 lbs.  Testing the drag when the binding begins is a good start in troubleshooting your issue.  Adding a shim under the star may allow you to crank the star as tight as you want without the binding.  If you told me the binding began under 27 lbs. of drag shimming may not be the best option.  The star is most likely bottoming out on the side plate.

tony


Title: Re: US113n binding at high drag??
Post by: C Michael Bergen on January 12, 2018, 06:52:36 AM
I pulled the crank and everything off the right side down to the side plate before leaving the house. One of the spring washers was not as cupped as the other. I actually had to look at it closely to verify that it was actually cupped. They were both installed properly though. At the boat ramp now and my dog is itching to go catch these sheepshead. (We'll see if she's still into it when we hit these projected 5-6 ft seas ;)

I'll get back with y'all later. Thanks again!


Title: Re: US113n binding at high drag??
Post by: handi2 on January 12, 2018, 09:32:38 AM
I have added a shim washer on top to eliminate the drag star from bottoming out and rubbing.


Title: Re: US113n binding at high drag??
Post by: PacRat on January 12, 2018, 12:57:46 PM
I agree with the others...it sounds like your drag star is contacting the sideplate. When you get home please confirm this. I know this sounds too obvious but Penn shows several drag washer configurations in the manual (versa-drag?). Maybe the previous owner was confused and omitted one or more drag washers. Make certain all four metal washers and all four friction washers are present. If everything is there and the star is contacting the sideplate you will likely need to replace the friction washers and/or the tension spring washers.
Use this schematic  while you're in there and confirm that parts 4, 6, 7L, 8, 9, 8A and 8B are all in there and in the correct sequence.
http://www.scottsbt.com/catalog/store/images/pennparts/schematics/113hn.pdf
Let us know what you find.
Mike


Title: Re: US113n binding at high drag??
Post by: C Michael Bergen on January 12, 2018, 01:25:05 PM
Anyone know how to put this back together? Just joking. I'll get it. I learned not to remove the eccentric lever or the springs will pivot the eccentric just enough that you can't get the lever back on. Had to break out some tiny needlenose to pull and refit the springs.

In other news, the star does not appear to be contacting the side plate (looks like there is space and I can't find any signs of rubbing between the two parts)

The spring washers are oriented correctly according to the schematic and the drag stack is correct as well.

Sigh- I prefer it when problems readily present their cause.

I'm going to put it back together and start over. Neat reel though


Title: Re: US113n binding at high drag??
Post by: STRIPER LOU on January 12, 2018, 01:35:50 PM
Tony, Its pretty nice when a Penn Engineer can take the time to monitor and help people out here! Its appreciated.
Regard's,  ..  Lou


Title: Re: US113n binding at high drag??
Post by: Bryan Young on January 12, 2018, 01:54:05 PM
Yup, Tony is the best!!!

Michael, I cannot think of anything else without have the reel in hand. 

I don't envy you in getting those anti-reverse dogs back in.  It too me several tries for the dogs to stay in place!


Title: Re: US113n binding at high drag??
Post by: C Michael Bergen on January 12, 2018, 02:38:27 PM
Man! That reel is a bear to get back together. The eccentric assembly and the bridge installation makes me wish I had more patience (and tiny fingers). Everything looks solid in there but I'm not so sure about the design of the dogs. Seem to have an awful lot of play. Bet they get tore up when catching big fish on heavy drag. There was no smoking gun as far as the binding issue. Guess I'll order some new spring washers as that one was less cupped than the other two.

In the meantime I'll spool it up and test the drag weight. Thanks again for all the help guys! I'll report back when I know more. 


Title: Re: US113n binding at high drag??
Post by: Fishy247 on January 12, 2018, 03:29:31 PM
If you still have the reel apart, or if you are going to take it apart again, you might check the pinion gear for any abnormalities. I've had other Penn reels feel like they were binding, only to find that a tooth in the pinion was messed up and wasn't meshing with the main properly.

Mike


Title: Re: US113n binding at high drag??
Post by: Fishy247 on January 12, 2018, 03:31:45 PM
I just reread the first post. If it was the pinion, it wouldn't matter what the drag setting was... :-\


Title: Re: US113n binding at high drag??
Post by: Bryan Young on January 12, 2018, 06:10:54 PM
Man! That reel is a bear to get back together. The eccentric assembly and the bridge installation makes me wish I had more patience (and tiny fingers). Everything looks solid in there but I'm not so sure about the design of the dogs. Seem to have an awful lot of play. Bet they get tore up when catching big fish on heavy drag. There was no smoking gun as far as the binding issue. Guess I'll order some new spring washers as that one was less cupped than the other two.

In the meantime I'll spool it up and test the drag weight. Thanks again for all the help guys! I'll report back when I know more. 

One of our members makes replacement bridge assemblies. Check this out. Well worth the money I my opinion.
https://www.cortezconversions.com/product-page/penn-113hn-us113-senator-bridge-assembly


Title: Re: US113n binding at high drag??
Post by: Swami805 on January 12, 2018, 06:36:29 PM
That replacement bridge assembly is very easy to install too. Even I put one in and that's saying something


Title: Re: US113n binding at high drag??
Post by: Rivverrat on January 12, 2018, 08:27:43 PM
The replacement bridge from Tom here on this sight is one of the best ugrades for any classic reel I have seen. Your experience with chewed up dogs will be a complete thing of the past. This upgrade allows you to fish the Baja/US113 at it's max drag & past it. This upgrade also makes the headaches of takedown & putting this reel back together a complete thing of the past. If you fish this reel a lot you need this upgrade... Jeff


Title: Re: US113n binding at high drag??
Post by: Penn on January 15, 2018, 04:12:03 AM
Tony, Its pretty nice when a Penn Engineer can take the time to monitor and help people out here! Its appreciated.
Regard's,  ..  Lou

Thanks Lou,

It's what I do!  Alan has been nice enough to allow us to post and help out.  By the way, I am just a lonely Parts and Service guy, no Engineering degree  ;D

tony


Title: Re: US113n binding at high drag??
Post by: foakes on January 15, 2018, 07:44:24 AM
Hi Michael --

These reels are tough as they come -- the weak spot is the "floating A/R dog assembly", IMO.

It may be OK for you as it is.  However, if you intend to fish and service this reel regularly -- a good consideration would be one of Cortez Conversion's drop in bridge, spring, dog, and sleeve assemblies.

Tom, the owner or Cortez, and one of our extremely talented members -- has engineered and manufactured this upgrade, which makes the US Senator or its pre-runner, the Baja -- just about perfect and bulletproof.

It just drops into the place of the original.

No more finnicky springs, dogs not floating anymore, rock solid A/R engagement, SS mostly where it counts, and everything supported solidly on the deck of the bridge.

$65 on Tom's link under Cortez Conversions, on our site.

Best


Title: Re: US113n binding at high drag??
Post by: C Michael Bergen on January 28, 2018, 02:16:44 PM
Hey guys- I checked out Cortez Conversion's upgraded bridge.  I'll definitely be picking that one up.  Thanks for the recommendation.  I'm putting this rig together for a no-excuses heavyweight grouper rig so I want it to be bomb proof-- and I've spent enough money setting it up that I want it to last, so easy maintenance is definitely a plus as well.  Looks like the new bridge will provide both.

Regarding the original "Issue"... It appears to be a non-issue.  I spooled the reel with 150 yards of 100# JB hollow and 25' of 100# mono.  Filled the spool exactly to the 1/3 mark ring.  (I'm only bottom fishing in 1-300 feet of water and wanted the flexibility of being able to remove the wind-on and add a couple hundred yards of lighter weight mono in case I wanted to add it to a trolling spread). 

Anyway... With the spool 1/3 full I'm getting close to 40 lbs of drag out of the reel before the handle starts to bind.  I was under the impression that you could "hammer" the star drag down and fish these reels-- maybe years of construction have made my hands stronger than I realized ;) because I can just twist it down and basically lock the reel up.  No worries though- When I back the drag off until I can't feel any binding I'm making something like 30-40% more drag than Penn claims so obviously there's no problem with the reel.

I'll tell you what though- lifting 35 pounds of weight on the end of a fishing rod is no joke!  Those grouper don't stand a chance!  Now if April would go ahead and come around so the season would open :/

Thanks again guys.  Interesting conversation about the reel and good recommendation on the bridge.