Reel Repair by Alan Tani

Fishing Rods => Fishing Rods => Topic started by: Rivverrat on April 11, 2018, 12:01:08 AM

Title: Question: Spinning Rod Build
Post by: Rivverrat on April 11, 2018, 12:01:08 AM
  I've some experience now with several rod builds behind me. However only a couple spinning rods & they were ultra lite. 

Question when building a spinning rod on a blank that is normally used with a conventional reel does the line rating need to go down a level with the stripper guide being placed out so far from from the reel ?

Has any body experience using the smaller high framed guides ?  This would be using braid with 10' mono leader on 8' rod... Jeff
Title: Re: Question: Spinning Rod Build
Post by: oldmanjoe on April 11, 2018, 01:16:06 AM
For the few that i have built ,yes you can use a smaller stripper guide. 
You have to take in consideration the spool diameter for the stripper diameter.
     Fore example 2.5 inch diameter spool i can use a 25 mm guide around 20 inches away      braid line .           braid or mono combination than i would use a 30 mm stripper


    The only  true way to find out is tape on the guides and do test casts and load the blank for the rest of the guide train
Title: Re: Question: Spinning Rod Build
Post by: thorhammer on April 11, 2018, 01:34:29 AM
what lb test Jeff? I have found personally that whether a blank is spinning or casting is really a function of how i spline it  and what guides i use, no matter what the manufacturer says...I'm sure the fish didn't care... if I think you are in the 40lb range we discussed, put the stripper at standard distance. the blank will be fine, its a function of ideally funneling the coil with least amount of choking. you can go down a size in guide if using the Fuji Concept but personally I still like a big 50 or more on a big spinner and I go oversize the rest of the way....just me. Fuji used to make a 20 mm tip i cant get anymore, my preferred build was 50-30-25-20-20-20-20 tip. now its 50-30-25-20-16-16-16 tip.

my 0.02.
Title: Re: Question: Spinning Rod Build
Post by: oldmanjoe on April 11, 2018, 01:50:34 AM
What are you building ?       8 foot surf rod?
Title: Re: Question: Spinning Rod Build
Post by: Swami805 on April 11, 2018, 02:05:30 AM
The line comes off the spool in a cone shape so ideally the 1st guide should go at the narrowest or point of the cone. In a perfect world that cone would be at the same point every cast so a small stripper guide would be ok. That's the theory anyway but I believe the cone isn't consistent depending of the force of the cast. Taping the guides and testing is the best way but it's time consuming. There's lots of good info on the web, worth a little research.
Title: Re: Question: Spinning Rod Build
Post by: happyhooker on April 11, 2018, 02:46:17 AM
Quote from: thorhammer on April 11, 2018, 01:34:29 AM
what lb test Jeff? I have found personally that whether a blank is spinning or casting is really a function of how i spline it  and what guides i use, no matter what the manufacturer says...I'm sure the fish didn't care... if I think you are in the 40lb range we discussed, put the stripper at standard distance. the blank will be fine, its a function of ideally funneling the coil with least amount of choking. you can go down a size in guide if using the Fuji Concept but personally I still like a big 50 or more on a big spinner and I go oversize the rest of the way....just me. Fuji used to make a 20 mm tip i cant get anymore, my preferred build was 50-30-25-20-20-20-20 tip. now its 50-30-25-20-16-16-16 tip.
...

Those are some humongous guides; must be talking saltwater.  To each his own; if it works....  But, I think you're right about the spinning vs. casting blank question--it's all in the build.  I've taken a steelhead casting rod, 8 ft., and rebuilt it as a freshwater spinning rod on a kind of modified Fuji New Concept; only had it on the water once last fall, but it shapes up to be a rod capable of very long casts, which is what I wanted.

Frank
Title: Re: Question: Spinning Rod Build
Post by: happyhooker on April 11, 2018, 03:11:55 AM
Quote from: Swami805 on April 11, 2018, 02:05:30 AM
The line comes off the spool in a cone shape so ideally the 1st guide should go at the narrowest or point of the cone. In a perfect world that cone would be at the same point every cast so a small stripper guide would be ok. That's the theory anyway but I believe the cone isn't consistent depending of the force of the cast. Taping the guides and testing is the best way but it's time consuming. There's lots of good info on the web, worth a little research.

Have never thought about the "force of the cast" factor; will have to ponder that.  It is work to tape, test cast, retape, etc.  There is something to the size of the line you will typically use as affecting the guide size.  The original Fuji New Guide Concept theory has been supplemented by the K-series guide (KR Concept) factors; I think I've even seen it expressed that the KR stuff is the braid line version of NGC.  The Anglers Resource site has a lot of info and some guide placement software as well.

I don't use braid and do not particularly care for the extra high frame guides the KR Concept envisions.  So, the old NGC is usually my starting point, using smaller guide sizes than would have been thought appropriate 20 years ago, with high frames but not so high as the Fuji Ks.  Usually end up with the butt guide about 20" or so in front of the reel spool, maybe a little further out with a long rod like an 8-footer.  Couple more reduction guides after that, sizing down to the final series of 4-6 guides that run out to the tip, usually around size 6s or so.

Frank
Title: Re: Question: Spinning Rod Build
Post by: Rivverrat on April 11, 2018, 03:26:55 AM
Quote from: thorhammer on April 11, 2018, 01:34:29 AM
what lb test Jeff? I have found personally that whether a blank is spinning or casting is really a function of how i spline it  and what guides i use,  

Yes I agree.  I have pretty much accepted this as a fact. However when you place a stripper guide out as far as needed from a spinning reel, in some cases you can lose a good bit of the rods power. Especially a slower action rod that has a lot of it's power in the bottom end of the blank.

I'm building 2 rods one will be using the Black Hole 10' Heavy, Surf 2 blank. Since this blanks line rating is already based on a spinning reel lay out I don't for see any issue.

The other rod will be a UC Elite 8' Wahoo. Being a UC Elite by design it is little more parabolic in its bend with a lot of power down low above the handle. With the stripper guide out farther from reel I just wonder if it will knock this rod down to a 30 or 40 lb. rod vs a being a 50 when done in a conventional lay out... I guess I will just have to do it & see. If the fella I'm building it for doesn't like it I'll re-wrap it & use it for one of my orphan Torque 12's.

A Quick 270 reel will go on both of these rods. Hopefully fishing 50 lb. line as max... Jeff
Title: Re: Question: Spinning Rod Build
Post by: Rivverrat on April 11, 2018, 03:37:33 AM
Quote from: happyhooker on April 11, 2018, 03:11:55 AM


  Usually end up with the butt guide about 20" or so in front of the reel spool, maybe a little further out with a long rod like an 8-footer.  Couple more reduction guides after that, sizing down to the final series of 4-6 guides that run out to the tip, usually around size 6s or so.

Frank

If I could get the 1st guide that close to the reel there would be no issue or question. But with this reel that will be used this I think would be a hard thing. My thoughts are the only way to move the stripper guide closer to the reel than usual to make use of the power that's lower in this blank is to use braid & a high riding guides... Jeff
Title: Re: Question: Spinning Rod Build
Post by: Jeri on April 11, 2018, 07:06:48 AM
We build a lot of rods for the surf, both spinning/lure and bait type, and with the recent change to fixed spool reel (spinners) and braid, we have had a lot of success with Fuji's original recommendation for Low Rider guides. These were obviously designed for long rods, over 12' and have virtually cured all our problems with line wraps, ease of use and performance. The concept that they work with is to take the coils of line coming off the spool, and constrict them quite dramatically with a small 'stripper' guide - and then use the much smaller coiling line to flow through ever reducung sized rings - to virtually end up coming out at the rod tip with the line running straight. This is basically the older NCG design concept. This was recently developed further to the KR concept, with a more aggresive reduction phase in the guide reduction from 'stripper' to running guides.

One of the rods that we have had huge success with is a 12' 2-3oz blank, which we first built with traditional single leg big - cone of flight guides, it cast well enough but with a few line wraps round guides. We then buit it with 30 down K series guides to overcome the problems of the line wraps - still good, but the guides were doing their job of coreecting potential line wraps, and this caused hesitancy in the casts. We then built the rod with a high size 16 Low Rider and a couple of 12 & 10 Low Riders, followed by some fly rod single leg guides size 10 and 8. This hybrid design was awesome, distance just went through the roof, line flow was as smooth as could be wished for, and with a good cast we were getting over 130 metres with a plain 3oz sinker.

This became our standard for a long time, but recently we had time and revisited the design using the KR Concept, which now runs size 20, 10, 8 high frame guides and a string of 6 and 5 guides. Initially we were worried about the braid to braid leader knot ripping off all the very small guides, but when we started casting, it just became awesome. The 2 biggest factors were that the line flow was near silent, and distance had gone up by a further 10 metres - such was the efficiency of the guide style and set up.

The one thing that we did do with all these evolutions is to push the position of the first/stripper guide well up the rod, forget about 'line slap' - it doesn't have time to happen, but what we found does happen, is that we end up with a very small cone/coil of line approaching the first guide, that once the casts settles into main flight, actually extends back towards the handle - basically the guides are working in total harmony with the line and the reel. We only saw this the first time at night casting with a head lamp, but the action of this tunnel of line is what we now always look for in any new design or layout - guides and line working in harmony, rather than the older concept of forcing the line where the designer wants it to go.

I know these are examples of longer rods than you are planning, but we have used the exact same principles of line harmony with the high small guides of the KR Concept on much shorter rods. A recent design was for a client on the northern rivers of Namibia, where they fish from the banks for Tigerfish - he now has a 9' rod that will cast 2oz spoons over 110 metres - a very happy man. The first size 16 high guide is 30" up from the reel seat, and we considered that a little close, we might experiment with pushing it out to 36" to see if we can get more distance from the same blank.

Hope that all helps.

Cheers from sunny Africa.
Title: Re: Question: Spinning Rod Build
Post by: oldmanjoe on April 11, 2018, 05:16:45 PM
 :)  I have been testing with smaller guides and a further distance from the spool .    The only down fall is 8 -10 mph  cross winds throwing 1/4 -3/4 oz jig heads .
      Funny part is i find my self further away from the mangroves , just to keep from getting tangle up. ;D ;D  Almost back to blind casting..
Title: Re: Question: Spinning Rod Build
Post by: Rivverrat on April 11, 2018, 05:45:38 PM
Thanks for that Jeri ! It is greatly appreciated !!

What size are the reel's spool on these rods your speaking of using the smaller guides with high frames ?  The spool size on the reels being used here are 71 mm. ...Jeff
Title: Re: Question: Spinning Rod Build
Post by: Rivverrat on April 11, 2018, 05:48:11 PM
Quote from: oldmanjoe on April 11, 2018, 05:16:45 PM
:)  I have been testing with smaller guides and a further distance from the spool .    

Waiting on guides I'm ordering 4 different stripper guides. Looking forward to playing around with it my self.
Title: Re: Question: Spinning Rod Build
Post by: oldmanjoe on April 11, 2018, 06:47:48 PM
 I will also say that i try a set up with 3 different reels.   Penn with 44 mm spool ,Mitchel with 49 mm spool , Quick with 54 mm spool .
  My test   ground is a concrete light pole 72 yards away , it is amassing what little changes make .
  This is casting rigs ,  drop rigs i think you can change thing up ,closer and smaller because you line watching off the spool . Just my thoughts joe
Title: Re: Question: Spinning Rod Build
Post by: Jeri on April 12, 2018, 07:18:37 AM
Quote from: Rivverrat on April 11, 2018, 05:45:38 PM
Thanks for that Jeri ! It is greatly appreciated !!

What size are the reel's spool on these rods your speaking of using the smaller guides with high frames ?  The spool size on the reels being used here are 71 mm. ...Jeff

On the long surf rods we have been using reels with spool diameter up to 90mm - so potentially a huge problem with big coils - but never had a line wrap - and that was only using 20 and 25 size high profile single leg rings, and using braid from 25lb right up to 50lb. On the shorter rods, the spools haven't been quite so drastic. But when we first started testing the idea, we wanted the absolute worse possible case to high light any problems.

Having already come from a design position of using Low Riders well up the rods, we didn't have any mental issues with using the KR rings a long way from the spool.

All the design concepts - Low Rider, NCG and KR all come from some early work done by the head of Fuji back in the 1960-70s, which developed into the Omura Theory - which basically came to the conclusion, that big eyes were a negative route to follow - small but tall eyes have much more control over line flow.

trange how we eventually go back to some quite old ideas.
Title: Re: Question: Spinning Rod Build
Post by: Rivverrat on April 12, 2018, 01:19:12 PM
Jeri, again thanks !

Your post here had the exact info I was looking for... Jeff
Title: Re: Question: Spinning Rod Build
Post by: happyhooker on April 13, 2018, 12:59:44 AM
Quote from: Jeri on April 11, 2018, 07:06:48 AM

Hope that all helps.

Cheers from sunny Africa.

Jeri, I too thank you for your valuable insights.  Hands on stuff to back up theoretical ideas.

Riverrat was curious, as am I, whether moving the stripper guide further out (toward the tip) on the blank will affect (reduce) the power of the blank, and I am wondering what your feeling would be on that.  Pardon me if you already expressed an opinion on this; I read your comments closely, but may have missed something.

This topic is a prime example of one person having a question and the discussion benefiting any larger number of the membership.  Thanks to all who are reading/participating.

Frank
Title: Re: Question: Spinning Rod Build
Post by: Jeri on April 13, 2018, 07:21:13 AM
A little background to the whole story.

We build a lot of very long surf rods, and in recent years there has been a change over to using fixed spool reels (spinners, egg beaters, coffee grinders, etc) and braid, especially in our competition circuit, where now they are pretty much 100% using fixed spools and braid.

Beinga  custom rod builder the emphasis is always on ultimate performance and reliablility, so we investigated this system intensively and found that Fuji already had the answer with Low Rider guides, which are the complete opposite to everyones perconcieved ideas about rings on a spinning rod - they rely on very small eyes. We worked initially with the Fuji recommendations, and they 'sort of worked', but then we started to push the first guide further and further up the rod, and all that happened was that the action got sweeter and the distance went further and further out. Where Fuji recommended 120 cms to the first guide, we pretty much topped out at 210cms - nearly double!!!! And with absolutely no troubles at all. This became our trade mark or signature and we sold and still sell a lot of rods in thios configuration.

On a development rod that we were working on that was for much lighter surf use 2-3oz lures or sinker, we employed the same concept of design, but switched out the upper Low Riders for some single leg fly rod guides, just to reduce 'ring weight' at the tip area of the very slim rod. We did try various traditional and 'K' series guides, and found then severely wanting, and seriously short on distance. The little rod with just a 3oz sinker and the hybrid Low Riders was casting 130 metres.

Having settled into a regime of building heavy and light surf rods, we then looked at 'how can we improve'. By experimenting with the new KR Concept, but also taking our earlier experience of pushing out the first guide, we found that the KR Concept of small and then very small eyes worked like a dream. Further increases in distance and power from both the traditional 15' surf rods as well as from the surf spin rod - the little surf spin rod is now pushing 3oz sinkers on the test field out to 140 metres.

So, what we have personally found out is that there is a lot of mis-conception about power loss and line slap associated with pushing the first guide out well beyond the Fuji recommendation. I would see that recommendation from Fuji as an absolute minimum, and needs experimenting with being pushed out considerably.

Part of our work is also to refurbish factory rods, and we have seen that a number of manufacturers in our local surf competition market have taken the original 'K' series concept on board for their various models for the local market, and have failed considerably, because they are following the Fuji recommedations blindly, and using the old 'big eye' concepts. To this point we started offering to put our scheme of Low Riders on refurbished factory rods, and now it makes up a considerable part of our work load. We even get rods into the workshop that still have their price ticket on the rings - straight from another shop into our workshop for reworking, such is the distance and power benefits that we have seen from both the Low Rider and the newer KR Concept.

As said earlier, even on a relatively short spinning rod designed for Tigerfish on the Okavango River - a 9' 2oz lure rod, we set the first KR guide at about 30" up from the reel seat - certainly no loss of power, as the guy when he came to test drive the rod was dropping spoons 110 metres away.

Hope that all helps.

Cheers from sunny Africa.

Jeri
Title: Re: Question: Spinning Rod Build
Post by: oc1 on April 13, 2018, 08:03:17 PM
I too have wondered about the effect of moving the striper guide farther out.  Not for casting purposes, but to get power and strength for fighting a fish.  

Way back when a seven foot split bamboo rod may have had only one guide and a tip-top.  Before that, there were no guides, just a tip ring.  The rod material was more fragile and breaking rods was a common problem back then.  But, nobody worried about distributing the pressure by adding more guides.  Also, if you tie a string on the tip and pull, it looks like the rod bends the same way it would with line running through a series of guides.  Perhaps, the strength and power of the rod is not influenced at all by the guides.

Some of the older spinners are canted differently than modern reels.  The center line of the reel can point to a spot on the rod that is much closer or much farther out than the current norm and makes using the Fuji K Concept tricky.

I often use non-levelwind conventional reels on light casting rods.  One thing I notice is that placing the striper guide very close to the reel (maybe 20 inches on a 10 foot rod) makes it easier to level the line and makes me less likely to inadvertently let the line bunch up on one side.  Using a walk-the-dog retrieve the line will actually level itself.
-steve
Title: Re: Question: Spinning Rod Build
Post by: Rivverrat on April 13, 2018, 08:55:00 PM
Quote from: oc1 on April 13, 2018, 08:03:17 PM
I too have wondered about the effect of moving the striper guide farther out.  Not for casting purposes, but to get power and strength for fighting a fish.  


-steve

 Yes, me to. This being the original context of my question.  

 Steve, I also have placed the first guide on some of my conventional builds low, under 20" from the center line of the reel. Main reason for this was I didn't wish to use the next heavier model blank. This would mean at times I would be fishing the rod at it's upper limit. Setting the guides lower I feel gained some power vs doing a more standard layout. I believe what I feel when doing this can be shown.

This was with an extremely fast taper blank. I do believe as the action of the rod gets slower or more  parabolic there would be diminishing returns doing as I describe.


I spent a short bit of time doing some initial testing on spinning rods & it appears that moving the stripper guide out further may reduce power to a little bit . But probably not enough to matter. My test were simply done with line tied to stationary object & simply pulling & watching the bend in the rod with stripper guide moved further out from reel. My testing certainly has not established any of this as fact.

All of this could & should be questioned.


This has turned out to be a good discussion... Jeff  
Title: Re: Question: Spinning Rod Build
Post by: oldmanjoe on April 13, 2018, 10:08:01 PM
 Just to stir the pot, what kind of blank material dictates on how far you want to stretch the stripper .
  Fiber glass rod i will stretch the  stripper without hesitation .  Carbon fiber make me wonder when will hear snap.
Title: Re: Question: Spinning Rod Build
Post by: Rivverrat on April 13, 2018, 10:13:44 PM
Quote from: oldmanjoe on April 13, 2018, 10:08:01 PM
Just to stir the pot, what kind of blank material dictates on how far you want to stretch the stripper .
  Fiber glass rod i will stretch the  stripper without hesitation .  Carbon fiber make me wonder when will hear snap.

As long as the blank being used is of good quality & your not high sticking nothing discussed here should cause a rod to break... Jeff
Title: Re: Question: Spinning Rod Build
Post by: oc1 on April 14, 2018, 07:40:06 AM
I'm wouldn't be strong enough to break an ultra light St. Croix as long as it had not been hit on something and cracked first.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJhhQyg9qiY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJhhQyg9qiY)
-steve
Title: Re: Question: Spinning Rod Build
Post by: Jeri on April 14, 2018, 08:03:09 AM
Quote from: oc1 on April 13, 2018, 08:03:17 PM

Some of the older spinners are canted differently than modern reels.  The center line of the reel can point to a spot on the rod that is much closer or much farther out than the current norm and makes using the Fuji K Concept tricky.

-steve

From all the different rods that we have built with the 'KR' concept, and the fact that in the majority of cases we have no control over what reel or angle of main shaft offset is being used, we have never seen a problem with the 'KR' layouts that we have been using - mainly because we ignore the reeloffset angle in determining our layout.

There is a tendancy these days for folks to wish for definitive formulae to design a rod and the guide layout, taking as many as possible variables into the equation, making it seriously conplex and overburdened. Having had protracted e-discussions with folks representing Fuji discussing these various aspect and potential 'over complication'. The upshot was that the core concept on spinning rods with the NGC principle is to get the line out of the spiral/coil mode of movement to running straight - in reasonably quick time, so that the line exiting the rod's upper third is running dead straight and without any coiled influence.

With the 'KR' concept they have just introduced a more rapid transition from coiled/spiral to running straight. The complication of reel angle becomes void in settting the position of the first guide - IF the line then subsequently acts harmoniously.

This 'harmonious' line movement we saw first when we were working with small, but tall low rider guides, when the big coils of line approach the stripper guide, they are very quickly formed into a tapered funnel effect - squeezing down to the size of the eye. As the distance/time of the cast develops, the tunnel gets pulled further towards the reel, and a quite precise low diameter spiral starts to develop, which then travels back towards the reel. This we found was best viewed with a head light looking at the line, when casting at night.

When we changed from using low riders to the 'KR' guides, we found that we had reached perfection in the design, when we again replicated the low diameter spiral effect. This was only achieved when we pushed the position of the first guide right out. This effcet was seen repeatedly on the same rod, irrespective of the spool angle of the reel, or even the spool diameter, or even the strength of the braid we were using - it was purely a function of guide position on that blank.



Quote from: oldmanjoe on April 13, 2018, 10:08:01 PM
Just to stir the pot, what kind of blank material dictates on how far you want to stretch the stripper .
 Fiber glass rod i will stretch the  stripper without hesitation .  Carbon fiber make me wonder when will hear snap.

I think that this might be a bit of a red herring, as on rods that we have tried this concept of moving the first guide well up the rod blank, have had a number of different glass+carbon, carbon or carbon+kevlar designs. On rods in the 14-15' long range we have pushed the first guide as far up as 82" from the reel seat, nearly half way, and never had any indication that the rod's integrity was even approaching being compromised in the cast, and this is with some really seriously heavy sinker and bait combinations applying the loads during the casting.

At the end of the day, we have found that by using the 'KR' concept of light weight, tall profile and small eyes, we have found an improvement in casting distance, smoothness of casting behaviour as well as an increase in core power of the rods both in casting and in fighting fish/sharks. I think that by reducing the overall weight of the total collection of rings that are mounted on the rod, there is significant reduction in the dampening effect that heavier ring systems would have. If the system had any weak points, our very brutal and powerful casting styles of surf casting with quite heavy weights would very soon highlight any short comings in the system. Even the fact that we are down to just size 8 single leg running guides when using 50lb braid and 150lb casting leader - no problems have been encountered. Sure, the very first casts we made when testing this theory, we had mental images of nearly all the guides being ripped from their whippings as the big leader knot and heavy braid travelled at speed through the very small eyes.

Previously when we built a lot of surf rods for multipliers, we also found that by reducing the total ring weight, there were performance gains to be had from any given blank.

Hope that this clarifies some of our thoughts on the matter, as we continue to launch heavy braids though small guides at approaching 100 miles per hour.

Cheers from sunny Africa

Jeri
Title: Re: Question: Spinning Rod Build
Post by: Rivverrat on April 14, 2018, 06:09:25 PM
FANTASTIC STUFF !! Cant wait now for my Black Hole 10' surf to get here to start work on it... Jeff
Title: Re: Question: Spinning Rod Build
Post by: oldmanjoe on April 15, 2018, 04:11:41 AM
  Are you using a under wrap under the guides ?      Is it still a safe practice or just more weight ?   I think about pounds per  linear inch that the foot is applying to the rod if the stripper is that far from the spool while in fight mode .      Joe
Title: Re: Question: Spinning Rod Build
Post by: Rivverrat on April 15, 2018, 04:23:34 AM
I dont see the reason for using an under wrap for spinning rod builds... Jeff
Title: Re: Question: Spinning Rod Build
Post by: Jeri on April 15, 2018, 08:47:45 AM
Quote from: oldmanjoe on April 15, 2018, 04:11:41 AM
  Are you using a under wrap under the guides ?      Is it still a safe practice or just more weight ?   I think about pounds per  linear inch that the foot is applying to the rod if the stripper is that far from the spool while in fight mode .      Joe

Hi,

We don't bother with underwrapping on the heavy surf rods, even right up to the 7oz+bait versions that we build with these KL-H guides. The feet on the single leg are sufficiently flexible to take any load or strain from the flex of the underlying carbon blank. As for anchorage, well that in my mind is better with the resin bonding the foot to the blank, rather than adding another layer.

In fight mode, the guides have exhibited no problems to date, and some of the rods with these guides have been used on big sharks over 100kgs (220lbs), so not an issue worth investigating. Don't fix what isn't broken!!

Weight is not the biggest issue, though the ring weight load over the top third of the blank does have an effect of not inhibiting the blank so much, as heavier or double foot guides might have done with another design. Effectively bring power back to the blank, which is also a function of the fact that the line follows the curvature of the blank much closer when under load.

Just our thoughts.

Cheers from sunny Africa

Jeri
Title: Re: Question: Spinning Rod Build
Post by: oldmanjoe on April 15, 2018, 01:33:50 PM
 :)  I thank you for your incite ...            I will take another step or two on that " gang plank " and try the stripper further out .    joe
Title: Re: Question: Spinning Rod Build
Post by: gstours on April 15, 2018, 03:36:50 PM
Lately I have broken several graphite spin rods at the guide area that were not first underwrapped.  This had me wondering.  Maybe scratches or 🤷‍♀️ 🤷‍♂️ dunno.   And not really maxed out either.   Just wondering. ???
   Thanks again for sharing your thoughts Jeri and others.   
Title: Re: Question: Spinning Rod Build
Post by: Rivverrat on April 15, 2018, 05:14:54 PM
This is what I have done on a couple of ultra lite bass rods I built for others. Have also used for conventional lay out. I lay a thin layer of epoxy over the right where the guide will be placed & going no wider than the guide foot is long. Just a thin enough layer that the foot doesn't contact the blank. I let the epoxy get tacky then carefully place the guide on top of it straight then wrap.

This has worked very well on rods using up to 60 lb. line for me. It is very possible & has happened that guides can damage a blank if not properly prepped or wrong thread tension for the wrap... Jeff
Title: Re: Question: Spinning Rod Build
Post by: Rivverrat on April 15, 2018, 05:24:51 PM
Still not by any means a definitive thing. After more testing on 8'-9' blanks & placing the guide out further than normal Ive yet to see a huge loss in power while pulling on something  stationary. Also have not noticed a big diff in the bend in the rod. Casting does improve.

Different blanks could show different results. Every blank can have it's own rules regarding how it might respond  to different lay outs. So none of what I've stated is or should be taken as hard fact.

Other wise It's like trying to come up with a guide lay out chart that works for all blanks. Which I think is an illusion that can be loaded up behind the tractor & spread out so the grass can get green.... bunch of crap & entirely not possible... Jeff
Title: Re: Question: Spinning Rod Build
Post by: steelfish on April 03, 2019, 10:55:55 PM
Quote from: Rivverrat on April 14, 2018, 06:09:25 PM
FANTASTIC STUFF !! Cant wait now for my Black Hole 10' surf to get here to start work on it... Jeff

Jeff, I didnt recall that you were working on a Black hole surf rod

did you ever build it?
Title: Re: Question: Spinning Rod Build
Post by: Rivverrat on April 04, 2019, 01:23:29 AM
No not yet. Been to busy with other stuff. Hope to get it done soon.