Here is a pic of a gear sleeve from a 140 that I was servicing. Note the bent teeth on the gear sleeve. The reel did have excess lubrication on the gears and the drags were the old style. The dog is not deformed in any way. Any theories on how the gear sleeve was damaged?
(http://alantani.com/gallery/26/19329_05_01_19_11_26_30.png)
Maybe trying to get the "knucklebuster" eccentric lever back in gear under a lot off tension on the line. Like someone flipped it open with a fish on it then trying to get it back in gear with the handle spinning.
as bad as this looks, this could be reshaped, all the burrs removed, and brought back to working order. you'd want to reshape the dog as well, then shim everything so that it seats properly. if there is too much up and down play in the gear sleeve, you could drill a slightly bigger hole to accommodate a larger retaining pin. it's all very tedious, but there is just so much slop built into the stock parts that sometimes these things are necessary.
I don't mean to question anyone's advice, I would say that gear sleeve had to come under pressure to bend the teeth like that. So I would replace that with a SS sleeve and dog. The next time it is forced to do to much work it will be up to it.
Joe
well, that is definitely true, but sometimes you'll have someone with money and no time, sometimes it's someone with time and no money. for those who can't afford the upgraded parts (and we've all been there), a small flat file might clean these up nicely.
the question was asked, though, how did this happen. it's back to basics here. likely the drags got sticky and seized, then suddenly the reel was under tremendous load. with this level of damage to the gear sleeve, i would also look for damage to the dog, the main and pinion gears, and even check the frame to make sure it's not torqued. it all goes back to the drag system.
and about the drag washers. let's say you've got a kid with no money and you want to help him out. the drag washers could be all rusted and gummed up. you could "raise the grain" by scraping with an old dull pocket knife, then apply cal's grease to these crusty old drag washers and i'll bet the drag will be smooth enough for this kid. that's the beauty of these old reels. ;D
Quote from: Reel 224 on January 06, 2019, 06:26:39 PM
I don't mean to question anyone's advice, I would say that gear sleeve had to come under pressure to bend the teeth like that. So I would replace that with a SS sleeve and dog. The next time it is forced to do to much work it will be up to it.
Joe
You are right, Joe — and replacing the sleeve and dog with SS would solve possibly 50% of the issue (but likely not the cause of the original pressure and torque that distorted those teeth.
So, in my book, it boils down to what the reel owner wants to invest — or even attempt themselves.
* A SS sleeve and a dog are around $42 with shipping, more for overseas.
* A stock dog and sleeve are around $10.
* Taking the teeth down and straightening them to sharpness — and installing a good used dog — is also a viable way to go.
It all depends on the owner or client's wishes, expectations, and checkbook.
Add $42 to a $22 service, a new delrin undergear washer, and a new drag stack greased with Cal's — and we are at $75 plus shipping — if no other issues are found such as a torqued frame, something else bent, a bad gear set, or bad bearings.
For me, on a Squidder, I would drop in another good used sleeve & dog — after cleaning the reel — then see if there are no other issues — and this solves the problem.
Typically, on these old battle tested Penn Conventionals — a little slop is OK — as long as the function is there — along with a Cal's greased new drag stack.
At the end of the day — it is all about how much labor, effort, and $$$ one wants to invest in their reel.
And this is a different call for each of us...
Just my opinions!
Best,
Fred
That's a mystery for sure, especially if there is no damage to the dog and the post is not bent or loose. You would think the sharp little teeth on the main and pinion would give out before the big teeth on the sleeve. If whatever it is they're fishing for can cause that much damage to the gear sleeve, then maybe they should be looking for a more substantial reel instead of pouring money into that one.
-steve
;D ;D ;D ;) I knew I was going to be slapped on the hand for such outrageous thoughts and suggestions by the BOSS!! ;D ;D ;). Just kidding. If Kita is on board, I think he made some SS dogs to fit the Squider. Never the less, you are right guys that situation can be corrected with arm strong assist.
Joe
one of the things i've always been sensitive to is the fact that not everyone can afford the fancy stuff. particularly kids. so if i can get something working well enough with the least amount of cost, that's what i try to do. and that is where these reels really shine. it's the fact that they will take a beating.
Im puzzled by the fact the gear sleeve is trashed but the dog is not.....Could the dog be stainless steel or was it changed out by someone else because it was toast also? Maybe a small piece of metal came loose inside the gear box and jammed up against the gear sleeve teeth. Bill
It's always possible that at one time the dog looked a lot worse than the sleeve and was replaced and this is what was left behind.
I'am not the original owner of this reel. The reel was definitely serviced as evidenced by the excess amount of lube found. The dog could have been changed. I think the anti reverse switch under pressure could be the culprit. For now I have a 209 that has been laying around for awhile (needs a new levelwind worm) so I'am going to swap out the 98-155 gear and get this squidder back to top notch fishing condition. I'am going to try to lightly file and sand the bottom of the damaged gear sleeve so it can possibly be used. By just turning the handle I didn't notice anything wrong with the anti reverse, all was smooth and no noises. I didn't have the reel under any pressure though, things could be different with some pressure on the spool.
Curious what the clicker looks like?
My guess would be that this reel was fished in gear, clicker on, and anti-reverse off. Once a fish bit and ran, the anti-reverse lever was thrown into gear. I don't think the damage occurred from one event, but rather over time.
Just a guess though.
Tom
That makes more sense Tom.
-steve
Tom is right —
And few folks understand how this A/R mechanism on a Squidder or a Mariner is designed to operate.
And, IMO, few folks understand how to operate a typical Penn Conventional properly. (Drag, A/R, spool tensioner, clicker, etc.).
Although, most folks who follow our forum and others — do know how these work, I believe.
The dog was likely replaced or filed down — and that was the end of any maintenance.
Best,
Fred
The clicker does not appear to be worn. Upon closer inspection the eccentric jack does have a circular groove in it that was caused by the eccentric spring being too long sticking thru the eccentric.
Quote from: Cortez_Conversions on January 08, 2019, 01:09:17 PM
Curious what the clicker looks like?
My guess would be that this reel was fished in gear, clicker on, and anti-reverse off. Once a fish bit and ran, the anti-reverse lever was thrown into gear. I don't think the damage occurred from one event, but rather over time.
Just a guess though.
Tom
I have often wondered about damage from slamming the reel into gear when a fish is running, this could well be it?
That could be it, but only if the fish was too large for this reel. All Penn reels are designed to take that type of abuse, as going into gear when the fish runs.
Gears always remain in mesh and connot strip and cause other problems, when goin in or out of gear.
I'm thinking the gear sleeve had too much up and down play, or the fiber washer for under the main gear was damaged, or missing.
Sal
Surely the anti reverse pawl slams into the anti reverse ratchet when you do that and the effect will be worse if the drag is sticky and then add out of alignment to it as well? I have seen anti reverse pawls damaged when AR bearings start failing and they start slamming into the anti reverse ratchet. Im not saying the reels are not designed for it, but if the drag is sticky then there must surely be a risk of damage? I don't fish with the reel in free spool because it is just a mother of a crows nest waiting to happen and a speeding fish going from no drag to full drag and you could have the line popping.
Yup, sticky drag can contribute to this, I agree. I do not fish with free spool as well, but do with live bait.
I always try to hold the spool with my thumb when shifting into gear, but at times you are not able to, or to excited to remember :).
Sal
Diamond jigging with heavy jigs causes hammering damage to the gear sleeve and dog. After repairing many party/head boat reels slamming the reel into gear before the jig hits the bottom takes it's toll. Maybe Mikebluefish will chime in. His reel overhauls are along the same as mine.
A stock Penn Squidder is rated at around 8lbs, capable to take a couple of more lbs with upgrades.
I still think the sleeve had too muck play.
Just my opinion of course and not ruling anything else out.
Sal
The value of this site and its members shines in all you can learn from a picture of a bent gear sleeve tooth. Very interesting reading.
I've used this method for surf fishing. Cast the Squidder, turn on the bait clicker, turn off the freespool, turn off the aintireverse. That way, dead-sticking, the fish can hit and run a bit with the clicker sounding. Set the hook with hand on the crank, turn on antireverse, and bring in the fish.
What Frank said about the pressure from heavy jigging interests me. I've wondered about the pressure on the gears on conventional versus spinning reels.
Quote from: Frank on January 11, 2019, 12:11:22 PM
Diamond jigging with heavy jigs causes hammering damage to the gear sleeve and dog. After repairing many party/head boat reels slamming the reel into gear before the jig hits the bottom takes it's toll. Maybe Mikebluefish will chime in. His reel overhauls are along the same as mine.
I've fished up in N.H. many times & have had reels with no problems like these. I have had Dwiawa & Shamano reels last 2 seasons & sold them because I didn't like them fishing 300' - 400' of water. The person that I sold them to had them repaired after 1 more season but I don't know what was wrong. My last few trips I brought my Newells 5-1 gears & fished Jigs 9 - 500Grs. & had no problem. Working on open boats our regulars used Newell reels or Penn reels never saw much problem with them using 4 -6 oz Jigs on Blues 6 - 20 lbs. Most of the rental rods had Knock off reels & were repaired daily.
Mike
Well, maybe not so much with bluefish69 but I encountered this in the past when servicing milk crates at a time of Penn Jigmasters. They were once the go to jigging reel for open boats until the introduction of the Daiwa 50H. The Daiwa was a big improvement with it's one piece frame and heavier internal parts. I do agree with Sal that there was some sort of lifting of the sleeve due to the angle of the damage in the gear.