I just picked up my first International II 12T. It didnt come with any line on it and im wondering what drag-at-strike numbers I should expect with freespool and what I could expect if I did the dura drag upgrade myself vs. footing the cost to have it blueprinted by cal's. I would hate to send the reel off for something I could do myself. I dont think I need to have it machined in to a Super 12. I would like to be able to fish 50# breaking strength braid on it.
I was shocked to find no one on the internet has had this conversation yet...
From the Penn manual included in the box with the reel.
Thanks, the information under that table is really interesting. Im not interested in running it as a 12# line reel. Cal's advertises that these reels can be brought up to 15# drag without any machining modifications by just what amounts to a dura-drag upgrade and "blueprinting", which appears to be just a very precise setting of the drag after a through clean and lube. According to customer support each reel is different and strike drag on a stock reel - with freespool intact - can range anywhere from 13-17#'s, but that most reels fall right around 15#.
I am just trying to confirm that's all Cals is really doing when they "blueprint-only" a reel. I can detail-clean it throughly, oil and grease appropriately and install the dura-drag upgrades myself. Is that all there is to it?
I happen to have one of these little beauties. Here's the thing from my perspective. This reel is built likes tank. It's way way capable of far more drag than is engineered into the reel. I was shocked to find that 7#s was the max strike I could get out of my reel. The previous owner had already sent it to Cal and had it two speeded. Why on earth do you need a two speed reel that's capable of less than 10 lbs of drag is something zi will never understand. So I took it over to Alan's one afternoon and he tried every trick he could and managed only to increase the drag to about 12lbs at full. So I made the decision to send it back to Cal to have it Super 12 and blueprinted. This entailed machining The reel and installing the drag system from a penn 16 to improve drag numbers. Blue printing involves more work shimming and shaving and belvilles and bearings, all to improve feespool and reduce startup.
Was it worth it? That's a very subjective thing. The reel now can get up to 22# at strike and close to 40# at full. Freespool is incredible. I love it, the thing is, I could have purchased a brand new Mak15 and had all that and more for less money than I have in this.
I had Cal 2 speed mine before Penn made 2 speeds. He set it up to fish 50# line. Works great for that. I have it full of 65# braid with 50# on top. Good free spool too. I put a topless frame on it then too. Back when I had it done there weren't 2 speed really so it made a sense, now I'd buy a new Penn 12.
David - I suspect that many of us have reels like that (I'm looking at my lineup of custom 113H's). That reel sounds awesome, regardless of price. - john
Quote from: David Hall on October 28, 2020, 11:14:42 PM
......So I made the decision to send it back to Cal to have it Super 12 and blueprinted. This entailed machining The reel and installing the drag system from a penn 16 to improve drag numbers. Blue printing involves more work shimming and shaving and belvilles and bearings, all to improve feespool and reduce startup.
Was it worth it? That's a very subjective thing. The reel now can get up to 22# at strike and close to 40# at full. Freespool is incredible. I love it, the thing is, I could have purchased a brand new Mak15 and had all that and more for less money than I have in this.
With the lower (smaller) line of International and similar reels, the major point was and is, do you already own a reel to "hot rod" (upgrade). If you don't already have the reel in hand, that you may have purchased years ago, or bought for cheap via garage/estate sale, the cost of investing to upgrade would exceed what is currently available on the retail market for the same or less cost. The only reason may be that you're doing the hotrodding for a shelf queen.
The same argument has been made over whether to replace the frames Shimano TLD 2 speeds. If one has to buy a new reel and then pay for the frame and drag upgrade, the cost will be greater than buying a new current different model of reel.
Cal (and Coffe) can do some amazing things, and they greatly improve the performance of the reel. They have a machine shop and the experience of upgrading hundreds, if not more, reels.
If one makes a blind purchase of an older International, open up the reel and you may have a nice surprise. There are reels out there that have already been to Cal's, because he leaves a sticker on the inner side of the sideplate that lets him and his staff know what was done to the reel.
Question still remains - can I upgrade the original ancient drags to duradrag, clean and polish everything, reassemble and see anywhere close to 15# drag at strike?
15 pounds? maybe, but it would be a stretch. first spool it up with 50 pound mono and see. as for the drag material, if you have carbon fiber then just grease it and call it good!!!!!
I have 2 12T's done by Cal. Both do 15-17# at strike, and gain another 10# at full. One has a Tib frame and both have handle mods. My Tib SST 12, and Avet HX5/2 also are in the same drag ranges. My Avet HX 5/2 Raptor gets about 20# at strike before the handle binding becomes too noticeable.
Both 12T's have 2 different sets of drag washers, with one set a smaller OD and thicker washers.
Quote from: alantani on November 02, 2020, 04:52:44 PM
15 pounds? maybe, but it would be a stretch. first spool it up with 50 pound mono and see. as for the drag material, if you have carbon fiber then just grease it and call it good!!!!!
It certainly "feels" like carbon from the handle. The 12T was my first International and was in mint condition so i wasnt in hurry to start experimenting on it. Since then I picked up a 30t and a 50tw in inoperable condition, so I dug into those first and learned a lot getting them going. Now I feel like im ready to jump into the guts of the 12T and tinker. I had leftover 65# Reaction Tackle braid with no home so I filled the 12T up with that. Im assuming the 12 will have spring washers I can play with to increase the drag like the bigger ones.
Thanks everyone, ill report here what I was able to get out of it.
Hey Willie!
What did you find?
Quote from: David Hall on February 14, 2021, 05:36:45 AM
Hey Willie!
What did you find?
I did the 50TW first and did a write up here.... https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=32687.0 (https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=32687.0) which earned me my first sticky :D
I did the 30T last week, but it required nothing special. I was VERY surprised to see it get 17# STRIKE and 26# FULL with the standard inverted belleville configuration, ()(), using new stock spring washers! In fact, any more aggressive configurations sent the drag THROUGH THE ROOF!. Since this 30 wasn't "wide", I didn't configure it for 80# line, I kept it configured for 50#. I spooled it with 500yds of 80# braid and 100yds of 50# mono, but 600yds is the least line I want on a reel like this. I do need to install 0.2mm in shims on the belleville stack as the lever only begins to engage at half-way to strike - which I dont like.
Last week I also fixed the dog spring in my friend's 12T because he took it apart and his eyes and fingers couldn't get it back together again, first time I had a 12T open. I took some measurements to order some different spring washers from McMaster-Carr and put a new set of the stock ones on my Mystic wish list. When the parts come in ill see if I can apply what I learned on the 50TW to the 12T.
I will certainly post anything cool im able to achieve, or if its just blah like he 30T.
I will note that due to the difference in he dog system from larger internationals I should begin thinking about double dogs if I'm able to get anything significant from the reel in terms of drag.
Thanks for following!
I too have a couple of those for shelf queens. Too pretty to fish with.
Quote from: Robert Janssen on April 06, 2020, 12:46:19 PM
From the Penn manual included in the box with the reel.
Thank you so much for this, I was looking for the International ii 12T specs. The one I'm working on had it's drag messed up by someone and lost the free spool ability. Turns out the washer was messed with by taking off the glued drag washer and installing another incorrectly sized. Once I fixed the problem, I'm getting around 2LB at full.
I could feel the lever clamping the spool strongly at Full, but somehow the drag power is just not there. Based on the plates measurement, the island in the middle of the plate is around 0.8mm thick so I made a Carbontex washer of 1.2mm for it. Somehow the power is just not there. I would be happy to get around 6LB drag at full.
Any ideas or corroborating stories?
I have succeeded in restoring the 12T previously mentioned.
My initial look was that the 1.2mm Carbontex should be running alright, but the drag was around 2LB and even less. Blueprinted the reel against the diagram and found everything is in order.
Belleville arrangement was found as (()) and I believe it's the same in the diagram.
As a last effort after not having success with 1.2mm Carbontex, I opened it up one last time and installed a 1.5mm Carbontex. Voila, all fixed and I'm surprised just how smooth and effortless it is to turn the drag lever. At max free spool the reel generated 6.5LB at Full so I'm well happy with the results.
Sure the reel is made like a tank and I'm sure many would have taken advantage to increase the drag. But as per Alan's comment I would think 15LB is a good stretch with the reel. What I could think off and I've done it before is to stiffen up the spring washers with flat ones. Just hope the drag lever and hub will last and could take the beating.
There's still something very wrong if you are getting 6.5# at FULL. You should get 12-15lbs at STRIKE with freespool and 20-30% MORE in the full position. If thickening the drag washer made the initial difference then you must look at the belleville washers. If the lever is left engaged the spring washers flatten out. The stock configuration on the bellevilles on any 1st gen international is ()(). If you are using the washers in the nested / stacked configuration like this - (()) - then your total stack height has been REDUCED and you must add an additional nested washer on one side or a flat washer to makeup the difference. The cam on the drag lever only moves about 1mm - so its imperative that you do not have ANY excess slack in the belville stack. Fixing this should solve your low drag problem.
The Wiskers
Quote from: williewiskers on April 15, 2021, 01:45:49 PM
There's still something very wrong if you are getting 6.5# at FULL. You should get 12-15lbs at STRIKE with freespool and 20-30% MORE in the full position. If thickening the drag washer made the initial difference then you must look at the belleville washers. If the lever is left engaged the spring washers flatten out. The stock configuration on the bellevilles on any 1st gen international is ()(). If you are using the washers in the nested / stacked configuration like this - (()) - then your total stack height has been REDUCED and you must add an additional nested washer on one side or a flat washer to makeup the difference. The cam on the drag lever only moves about 1mm - so its imperative that you do not have ANY excess slack in the belville stack. Fixing this should solve your low drag problem.
The Wiskers
100% agree with you, it's one of those reel with very little drag cam travel. Stiffening up the drag stack and springs will help generating the drag force quickly.