Reel Repair by Alan Tani

General Maintenance Tips => General Procedures => Topic started by: josa1 on July 09, 2013, 08:43:46 PM

Title: CLEANING AND RELUBE OF AN OKUMA MAKARIA 30II THRUST BEARING
Post by: josa1 on July 09, 2013, 08:43:46 PM
July 17, 2017

Just completed updating the pictures on this post from PB to AT hosted pictures.
josa1
_______________________________________________________________________

In cleaning an Okuma Makaira 30II SEA I decided to open, inspect and clean the thrust bearing.

Here is the bearing.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/1203_17_07_17_3_09_10_193461107.jpeg)
DSCN0397

Reverse view..
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/1203_17_07_17_3_09_11_19347739.jpeg)
DSCN0398

The tools required.  I'll use two small picks and a sewing machine needle.  My wife keeps wondering why she can never find a needle when she needs one.  I've found these to be the best implement to remove bearing snap rings of various sizes.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/1203_17_07_17_3_09_11_193481525.jpeg)
DSCN0400

It's a simple task to force the needle between the retaining ring and the bearing housing.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/1203_17_07_17_3_09_12_19349988.jpeg)
DSCN0401

Retaining ring removed.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/1203_17_07_17_3_09_12_193501630.jpeg)
DSCN0402

I flip the bearing over and remove the inner bearing race.  This exposes the bearings, the bearing cage and the outer bearing race.  Note that there are 14 ball bearings.  It would be best to keep them all!  I noted that the balls were oiled for lubrication.  After finding, to be best of my knowledge, that the bearing does not affect free spool,  I am planning on putting a light coat of grease on them upon reassembly.  This bearing rides very close to the spool bearing that has everything to do with free spool, so don't use a lot.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/1203_17_07_17_3_09_13_193511175.jpeg)
DSCN0403

I remove the bearing and cage from the outer race.  Everything is fairly clean and in good condition
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/1203_17_07_17_3_09_13_193521560.jpeg)
DSCN0404
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/1203_17_07_17_3_09_15_19353319.jpeg)
DSCN0405

I wipe the surfaces clean and apply a light coat of grease
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/1203_17_07_17_3_09_15_19354632.jpeg)
DSCN0406

(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/1203_17_07_17_3_09_16_19355481.jpeg)
DSCN0407

I rub a small amount of grease on the cage and reinstall it into the housing.  It appears that the cage was "stamped" and it has a little lip on the bottom edge.  I'll face that edge down.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/1203_17_07_17_3_09_16_193561364.jpeg)
DSCN0409

I found the best way to reinstall the bearings into the cage was to use a wood pick with a little grease on it.  This picked up the bearings very nicely.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/1203_17_07_17_3_09_16_193571878.jpeg)
DSCN0410

Install the last bearing
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/1203_17_07_17_3_09_17_193592080.jpeg)
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Reinstall the inner race.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/1203_17_07_17_3_09_18_193601475.jpeg)
DSCN0414

Reinstall the retaining ring.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/1203_17_07_17_3_09_18_193611171.jpeg)
DSCN0415

The bearing stacks up on the spool shaft like this.  Note the small washer/spacer between the thrust bearing and spool bearing.  This spacer does not show on the parts list.  I suspect it adjusts the dimension between the shaft C clip and the face of the thrust washer, but don't know for sure.  Also note that the tension spring does not go all of the way through the thrust bearing.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/1203_17_07_17_3_09_08_193411267.jpeg)
DSCN0392

I'm pointing to the shoulder that the tension spring rests on.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/1203_17_07_17_3_09_10_19344463.jpeg)
DSCN0395

All finished and ready for another cow try!

josa1
Title: Re: CLEANING AND RELUBE OF AN OKUMA MAKARIA 30II THRUST BEARING
Post by: alantani on July 09, 2013, 09:02:41 PM
thank you for this.  i never even thought to look. 
Title: Re: CLEANING AND RELUBE OF AN OKUMA MAKARIA 30II THRUST BEARING
Post by: redsetta on July 10, 2013, 03:27:07 AM
Great work again josa - thanks for sharing.
Cheers, Justin
Title: Re: CLEANING AND RELUBE OF AN OKUMA MAKARIA 30II THRUST BEARING
Post by: mohamedhashem21 on July 13, 2013, 03:20:12 PM
great work josa (y) , but does this thrust bearing really elliminates side loads an loads on pinion bearing? however it is placed in the spool?
Title: Re: CLEANING AND RELUBE OF AN OKUMA MAKARIA 30II THRUST BEARING
Post by: josa1 on July 13, 2013, 06:43:23 PM
Hi Mohamed,

I've tried to figure that out and have come up with some ideas, more than likely a little off based.  I think that the thrust load generated by tightening the drag adjustment/lever assembly pulls the reel shaft to the right which forces the drag washer/drag plates together.  As I see it, the force to do that is transfered thru the thrust bearing face which touches ONLY the inner race of the spool bearing, (which in turn allows the outer race to 'float') then to the wafer washers, and finally to the shaft 'C' clip.  It seems to me the thrust is then ultimately transferred to the 'C' clip, a stationary object.

How do you see it?

Isn't this fun!

josa1
Title: Re: CLEANING AND RELUBE OF AN OKUMA MAKARIA 30II THRUST BEARING
Post by: josa1 on July 13, 2013, 06:51:22 PM
Hi Again Mohamed,

I meant to add that I don't believe that pinion bearing side load is not used to increase pressure in the drag system so I think the thrust bearing takes up the thrust load. For me this kind of stuff is a little difficult to follow thru and I would be interested to hear how you feel that that pinion bearing thrust load might be mitigated by the thrust bearing.

josa1
Title: Re: CLEANING AND RELUBE OF AN OKUMA MAKARIA 30II THRUST BEARING
Post by: jonathan.han on July 13, 2013, 11:34:37 PM
Thanks Josa, I stole your images because I don't have any :)

The load is being transferred via the inner race of the spool bearing to the thrust bearing. The load from the thrust axis is never applied to the spool bearing because the outer race is not applying a negative force vector along that axis.

We see in this wonderful MS Paint image that the thrust vector is in red. The load is applied to the inner race of the spool bearing, then to the shim, then the thrust bearing it self. The reason why this load is alleviated from being applied to the spool bearing is that the outer race surfaces (in blue) are not applying a negative vector which would oppose this thrust load. The negative vector is applied mainly to the thrust bearing itself. Then, to each individual ball. In a pinion bearing, the bearings are not engaging their full potential contact area when it is applied with a thrust load because the outer race is applying an oppsing vector because it is sitting in a bearing cup. The concentration of the force on a pinion bearing causes rapid deterioration. A thrust bearing system remedies this.
(http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p133/jon8han/DSCN0392_zpse780b108.jpg) (http://s127.photobucket.com/user/jon8han/media/DSCN0392_zpse780b108.jpg.html)

Here's what a pinion bearing does without side/thrust load:
(http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p133/jon8han/Pinionload_zps11bd5a9d.jpg) (http://s127.photobucket.com/user/jon8han/media/Pinionload_zps11bd5a9d.jpg.html)

Here's what forces and load points a side load does to a pinion bearing (Note that the load is not being evenly distributed along the circumference of each individual ball when a side load is applied):
(http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p133/jon8han/sideload_zpsc59455af.jpg) (http://s127.photobucket.com/user/jon8han/media/sideload_zpsc59455af.jpg.html)

Here's what a thrust bearing is accomplishing:
(http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p133/jon8han/6655kl1l_zps63623c0f.png) (http://s127.photobucket.com/user/jon8han/media/6655kl1l_zps63623c0f.png.html)

Hope that sheds some light on understanding thrust bearings. I received a Penn Squall 30LD to field test from Pure Fishing last year. Alan pointed out that it has a thrust bearing in it, as well. I have experienced no pinion failures in and had it loaded up with 50lb. top shot and drag set at 15lb. for trolling albacore (I wanted to abuse it to the best of my ability). So far, it has had about 20 white seabass, over 40 albacore in the 20-40lb. class, and I haven't seen any issues. I was concerned the dual Ambassadeur AR system would fail by now, but it hasn't.

Title: Re: CLEANING AND RELUBE OF AN OKUMA MAKARIA 30II THRUST BEARING
Post by: josa1 on July 14, 2013, 12:50:58 AM
Thanks Jonathon!  I think I understand your explanation.  Please use my images in any way that will help us in our quest.

Want to say also, that in the MK30II SEA the pinion bearing is mounted in a blind cup.  Unlike some other lever drag reels, the MK pinion bearing is not pushed forward (towards the spool) when the lever is moved up the drag scale and it seems its principal job is to provide shaft support only.  I think that's a pretty enjoyable  scenario for this bearing.

Thanks again!

josa

Title: Re: CLEANING AND RELUBE OF AN OKUMA MAKARIA 30II THRUST BEARING
Post by: jonathan.han on July 14, 2013, 05:01:12 AM
Okuma got it right with that series. I used Alan's Makairas on a trip two years ago. I would prefer not to touch them again until I can justify that I have to buy them. They are delightful to use.
Title: Re: CLEANING AND RELUBE OF AN OKUMA MAKARIA 30II THRUST BEARING
Post by: day0ne on July 14, 2013, 05:33:54 AM
You stated "It appears that the cage was "stamped" and it has a little lip on the bottom edge.  I'll face that edge down.", however if you look at picture 6 where you disassembled the bearing, it appears that the lip is facing the other way.
Title: Re: CLEANING AND RELUBE OF AN OKUMA MAKARIA 30II THRUST BEARING
Post by: alantani on July 14, 2013, 08:00:41 AM
i'm glad you guys are figuring this out.  my brain is mush right now......
Title: Re: CLEANING AND RELUBE OF AN OKUMA MAKARIA 30II THRUST BEARING
Post by: josa1 on July 14, 2013, 09:42:17 AM
Hi dayOne,

You definitely could be right.  Even tho I try to watch closely, I don't always notice how things are faced when I do a tear down and typically, the schematics are only about 50% definitive.  The bearing cage had a lip/sharp edge that was more easily felt than seen.  The bearing seems to work fine now but I'll keep your thoughts in mind if something goes amiss.  Thanks for your comment.

josa1
Title: Re: CLEANING AND RELUBE OF AN OKUMA MAKARIA 30II THRUST BEARING
Post by: jonathan.han on July 14, 2013, 12:03:46 PM
That edge on the lip is on a material that is softer than the other parts of the thrust bearing. It won't wear anything else out. Put it back any way you wish.
Title: Re: CLEANING AND RELUBE OF AN OKUMA MAKARIA 30II THRUST BEARING
Post by: JGB on August 16, 2013, 04:46:45 AM
Great tutorial on the thrust bearing service. For clarity the thrust bearing on the Makiara eliminates the thrust load on the right spool bearing and transfers it to the E-clip on the shaft. The spool bearings and the spool are independent of the drag system. The thrust load on the right side plate and right side plate bearing is still present however it is significantly reduced because the 'dual' drag uses less than half the thrust for the traditional single pressure plate drag system. The net result is only a small amount of bearing drag at high drag settings and that is negligible in low gear. A second thrust bearing between the pinion bearing and the side plate would totally eliminate any side loads and allow very high drag settings from this drag system. A angular bearing would also accomplish the same. A result of the current design still allows the right side plate bearing to be damaged if the 'Max" rated drag settings are abused and this has happened already from customers who do not care about free spool.

Jim N.
Title: Re: CLEANING AND RELUBE OF AN OKUMA MAKARIA 30II THRUST BEARING
Post by: josa1 on July 17, 2017, 09:32:47 AM
I will be updating the pictures on this posting some time this week.

josa1
Title: Re: CLEANING AND RELUBE OF AN OKUMA MAKARIA 30II THRUST BEARING
Post by: Dr. Jekyll - AKA MeL B on July 17, 2017, 01:59:02 PM
nice! thanks for sharing... 8)
Title: Re: CLEANING AND RELUBE OF AN OKUMA MAKARIA 30II THRUST BEARING
Post by: Tiddlerbasher on July 17, 2017, 02:47:20 PM
Thanks for updating Josa - well worth while :)

I'm still trying to figure out how to get 1 or 2 thrust bearings into a 1st edition Okuma Andros. It can provide a lot of drag if the pinion bearing can be protected.
Title: Re: CLEANING AND RELUBE OF AN OKUMA MAKARIA 30II THRUST BEARING
Post by: nelz on July 17, 2017, 02:54:25 PM
I don't get why Okuma puts thrust bearings only in the top and bottom of their LD reel lineup; Makaira/Solterra.  ??? I can't justify buying a Makaira, and I won't buy the plastic Solterra.  If they'd put a thrust bearing in the other models I'd be game. I guess Penn Fathom is the way to go for a mid-grade reel with thrust bearings.
Title: Re: CLEANING AND RELUBE OF AN OKUMA MAKARIA 30II THRUST BEARING
Post by: josa1 on July 17, 2017, 04:37:15 PM
Have to admit I don't know a lot about other Makaira models.  I can only tell you that my 20 and 30 are a dream to fish with great free spool, strong smooth drag, and overall flawless operation.

They are expensive though.  I'm looking for a used 16 MAK right now and it seems that every one wants a near new price.

Thanks for your comments!

josa1
Title: Re: CLEANING AND RELUBE OF AN OKUMA MAKARIA 30II THRUST BEARING
Post by: boon on July 27, 2017, 04:28:35 AM
Quote from: Tiddlerbasher on July 17, 2017, 02:47:20 PM
Thanks for updating Josa - well worth while :)

I'm still trying to figure out how to get 1 or 2 thrust bearings into a 1st edition Okuma Andros. It can provide a lot of drag if the pinion bearing can be protected.

Try an angular contact bearing :) Worked really well in my Metaloid, caveat that it made the spool bearing suffer a bit, and I had to use a chrome steel bearing, which I got maybe a year of fishing out of before it went gritty.