a little history from eugene wong

Started by alantani, March 10, 2014, 05:48:37 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

alantani

fishin.e@verizon.net
Today at 9:14 PM
To Alan Tani

Alan, Bar moving is to permit better palming when the pre-set drag needs a little assistance.

My thoughts and opinions...sure go ahead and borrow them. Getting some of the history only comes from sitting and spending time with these guys, usually when they are suppose to be working on our or someone others gear...all part of PR. this was one of the reasons Yo' Yoshida did most all of his work after hours...everyone wanted to visit with "the Man" who they were paying to build their rods, trading stories from Yo "networking" with everyone coming through the doors.

Advice...don't open a store front or answer emails and postings too soon after receiving...don't answer the phone while working on reels either...

We'll help contribute... ask questions, I may be able to further answer them...we talk down here...my group is maturing and we say, "remember back in the day when so and so....?"

Respectfully,
Eugene V. Wong
Wong Bros. of L.A.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Alan Tani <alantani@yahoo.com>
To: "fishin.e@verizon.net" <fishin.e@verizon.net>
Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2014 1:05 PM
Subject: Re: Avet bearings; Penn 50W frame-mods

eugene, thanks for getting back to me.  so, as far as the right main side plate bearing issues goes, i have argued for some time now that a thrust bearing was needed to support the inside race.  this has mostly fallen on deaf ears, although penn and okuma have noticed.  with the smaller avets, their early models had a single drag washer and a single right main side plate bearing, resulting in a side load at even modest drag pressures.  with the larger reels, it is not a problem.  your avet 50 will fish just fine.  once you get to these larger class reels, they all work fine.  

for your early model penn international, these have always been my favorites.  they showed great vision.  look at how many of these 40 to 60 year old reels are still in service!  moving the bars around will certainly help, but they might work just fine the way they are.  the thing to do would be to set them up the way you want to fish with them, then tie of the line to a pickup truck and run a hundred yards.  

and finally my interest in ray lemme.  very few people know the history of these old reels.  and we are losing the ones that do!  these bits of information have to be preserved.  you know i have a website.  i was wondering if i could have permission to copy and paste what you wrote about your reels onto the penn international section of the website.  i don't want these old stories lost.  alan

From: "fishin.e@verizon.net" <fishin.e@verizon.net>
To: "alantani@yahoo.com" <alantani@yahoo.com>
Cc: Eugene Wong <fishin.e@verizon.net>
Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2014 10:34 AM
Subject: Re: Avet bearings; Penn 50W frame-mods

Alan, First of all, thanks for the response.

Email is preferred means to communicate. Work during days and can better think and write after hour and when at home. Please use this personal email address for all future communications fishin.e@verizon.net ---Thanx.

I'm in L.A. and your area code reflects up in Santa ClaraCty/Cupertino (area)...Close? House rules...LD phone calls are avoided at any non-emergency expense. Not cheap...but wisdom is applied.I don't own cell phone, but wife, 22 y.o. daughter and 16 y.o. son have them. I don't hear them ring much, and cannot justify the personal need...yet. In absolute need i will borrow wife's cell.

I am with AARP and have researched Consumer Cellular, Net Zero, Magic Jack and others. Do not quite understand the WiFi hot spot technical info to rid of home phone and DSL. Magic Jack sounded good, but need an internet subscription at home to plug into. Home Security need to upgrade for one-time +$80 to provide wireless dialing communication to ADT and monitoring agency. Consumer Cellular and Net Zero look good, just not fully sold and need to further research and make the move. Know something about this stuff?

I have some living and not relatives in both Cupertino (Bob & Carolyn-cousin Fujimoto), Sunnyvale (Marilyn-cousin Chow, San Carlos (James Wong-gone- well known Flower shipper-Shriner). James was the Father of the two Ladies (+70). By chance know of them?

There are a few of us left that were able to have Ray service on our International's back in early 1980's. Personal reels, through reference of other 50Ws, he performed the beginning few services, followed by the two-speed upgrades for five of my 50Ws, and my brother's 50Ws, 30, 30W, & 12's. Back then there were three others with at least one 50W each.

Each visit, few as they were, to his "Shop" which was a huge garage, was a scene imaginable from the early 1900, reflecting genius in camouflage...just how he liked it. He knew his worth...as well as all other Penn Int'l owner's such as our selves, in that time. We are of Mechanical and Technical background from the bottom up. So, talking shop is first nature, not just a hobby or fad from some fishing magazine or today's website posting.

I met a guy Bob Nakagi-from Concord (Tosh@astound.net) on a SD LR trip a few years back, originally from Ohio, he use to be with Caterpillar up there in N. Cal, whom informed that "Alan Tani" is the highly respected mechanically and technically gifted guy whom everyone in the Bay Area goes to for fishing tackle info and reel recommendation reviews and servicing. In reading your posts, I agree you have rolled up your sleeves a many times, and you are respected and well-listened to by many. I first enjoyed your Makaira review, including bearings is good, just need to be properly packed...as do all greased bearing. Most do not think, just replace...usually for like-kind and get like-kind results.

I returned on Jan 07 from a 12 day on the Intrepid, fishing HB, and had some modification ideas for my 50Ws.

Yesterday, I visited with Cal Sheets to go over these modifications to 50W-2 speed. On the older models of early 1980's, I am experimenting with reconfiguring to make top-less as much possible with retaining as much structural integrity as possible. After much discussion, we agreed on trying something that we both agree should work. It should improve hand and finger placement atop the reel whether on or off the rail. Years ago, there were stories of guys pulling on reels while fighting fish, and this led to numerous panics of reels being pulled off reels as reel feet were bending and tearing out of reel seats. sounds like Jaws huh? Many Int'l serious LR tuna guys were paying Cal for upgrading the reel foot, as then Penn came out with the upgrade on some and soon the one-piece frame followed called the Int'l II.

I thought I would experiment (save money, and did) and I installed forward rod braces much like design of the 10/0-14/0 Senators and the older 80s. This relieves some pressure and fatigue at the reel foot and seat and distributes some to above rs, on my rods an aluminum metal forward rod brace sleeve installed between rs and fwd hypalon grip. Did this for ten 50Ws, never had failure to date.

When Ray began to sell the 2 speed concept, he knew Cal, and Cal devised the mechanical design for Ray. Ray's service was to check the working mechanisms, polish and resurface drag discs and drag disc materials. Ray used an asbestos-like, brake pad-like material. Carbon-fiber, Kevlar, D. Bunker-Super Smoothies, HT100, Dura-Drag were not yet invented. Dura-Drag with Cal's Grease baked in is the present day recommendation and routinely installed as upgrade and repair with Cal. Avet-Harry endorses a smooth fiber-like dry-no grease or lubricant-drag, supporting that more consistency of +/- 1-2 #s in drag-pre-set readings during a 25 pull test on back of his factory. The materials Ray used took the occasional dunk in the drink, but over reel life-time and exposure to further moisture, the materials eventually broke down and were no longer available for EPA reasons. On comes the following of materials. By this time, Ray had retired, and Cal is the "Go-to" guy. No other than Cal has this daily routine business and operation, not occasional as hobby or like a custom rod-builder. Cal and Eric have built a reputation that keeps them busy servicing, upgrading and rebuilding not only Penn's but Shimano, Daiwa, Avet, and Accurate. His earned an Engineering Degree from USC, and shows it not only in his work, but in technical conversation.

Ray did not have a degree that I am aware of, but his mechanical aptitude and skills placed him in the "Old School" category of getting it done...correctly. Rare to none were there reported failure in Ray's workmanship, the same for Cal's. Other come-and-gone-lately have reported failures with their so-called expertise. The proof, though not free, was in the results and eventually they fade to obscurity.

What interests you in Ray?  

We spoke of Avet and the referred "draw-bar type" spool cause of the bearing failures. It was agreed that more money would likely solve the problem. We discussed several remedies. Tapered bearings are not available this small, nor for the +55-50# loading. A conical bearing is super expensive like +200/pr., this is an expensive prolonging to the eventual same result of failure. A drag preset stop, of some sort, limiting oversetting. A preset cam-like lobe to ramp up to pre-designed max and then fall off to zero. Discussing the sandwiching of the bearing between two hardened flat washers to distribute force on entire side of bearing would result in same experience of crushing the bearing walls into the ball and restricting movement and causing failure. After I left, I thought of a narrower bearing with a larger ID axle opening, and inserting a bushing the same width as the original bearing which is 4mm, I believe. This AM Cal responds that the bearing rating will be reduced and technically will not meet performance as compared to original bearing design. Rating will be far less and not professionally recommended.

Bottom line of most cost effective would be to keep spares of each bearing and get real familiar handy with replacing at the slightest sign of irregular performance. Cal also adds that the use of a non-sealed/closed bearing on these models that are not impervious but are very susceptible to water and moisture intrusion, requiring frequent maintenance to flush the bearing of corrosion causing particles...salt et. al...and requires re-grease and oiling. Sealed bearing will slow and hide from view the corrosion, more expensive, and eventually fail in same way as open bearing.

Have another opinion?

Respectfully,
Eugene V. Wong
Wong Bros. of L.A.

fishin.e@verizon.net

From: Alan Tani [mailto:alantani@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2014 11:28 AM
To: Wong, Eugene
Subject: Re: Avet bearings; Penn 50W frame-mods

eugene, you've got a reel worked on by ray lemme?????  give me a call sometime, 408-219-1149.   alan

From: "Wong, Eugene" <eugene.wong@lausd.net>
To: alantani@yahoo.com
Cc: "EVW@ver" <fishin.e@verizon.net>
Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2014 10:23 AM
Subject: Avet bearings; Penn 50W frame-mods

alantani


admin
Administrator
Member

Online

Posts: 9193


Re: Avet Pinion Bearings


« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2010, 02:14:48 PM »

there are a couple of things going on here.  one, if you exceed a certain load on any of the smaller avet reels, you will blow out the right main side plate bearing.  you will know that you are damaging the reel because you will note a slight resistance when you turn the handle.  with that first turn, you have just damaged the bearing.  the more you turn, the more damage you are causing.

even if your drag range is low enough, water can still intrude.  avet's bearings are actually well packed with grease.  water can get in, so they should be repacked.  i like the yamaha product for that application.  

and lastly, avet's bearings.  they generally charge $5 per bearing regardless of size.  part of that is service to their customers, the other part is that they are inexpensive to begin with.  the bearings from smoothdrag.com or bocabearings.com are a much higher quality.  it would be worth switching over to a higher quality bearing, but only if you will pack it with grease AND keep the drag below a certain range.  otherwise, stick with the cheap avet bearings and just replace them as you go.  alan

Hi Alan,

I have two HX 2 speeds, and one HX-2 speed Raptor, a MX 2 speed, and a MX Raptor 2 speed, and with all but the Raptors having experienced your described bearing failure issues. You state the "right main side plate bearing" is the culprit in this case. Looking at the schematic, please you able to ID the part by name and number?

Shaft, pinion or which bearings is all the repetitive common failure issue? I'm guessing the part #23, pinion bearing HX5/2-023.

In looking at Boca, they ID only one set of replacement bearings, radial.

You state that in upgrading to ABEC7, the cost is more but this does not resolve the bearing failure issue. Any updated recommendation? How about if the bearing is sandwiched by SS flat washers? May require a thinner bearing from the existing 4mm. What do you think? A thicker overall width may affect clearances and bind, as it is assumed that the design is of close tolerances.

Keta refers to pinion bearings.

Although the bearings may cost $5, it takes up to +$30 to send and return to Avet.

Keta


D'oh!
Moderator
Member

Online

Posts: 2956

Klamath Falls, OR US

Re: Avet Pinion Bearings


« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2011, 07:54:57 AM »

Rather than use a thrust bearing and/or a flanged angular contact bearing Avet uses a deep grove bearing for their pinion bearings.  I've seen these bearings crack and break on the thin outer race, usually caused by someone stetting the drag far too high and then shoving (forcing) the drag lever to full.  One reel was dropped under load and the pinion bearing outer race broke all the way around.

Avet is using the wrong bearings in this application as far as this ignorant sheep farmer is concerned.

Any recommendation-feedback on the Avet EX50-3 speed topless? Bearing or other issues?

How about bearing upgrades on Penn 50W? 2 speeded and blueprinted by Ray Lemme and further serviced by Cal Sheets.

All are old style 50W with rectangular metal bars and round chromed bar-tubes. I want to make them topless by relocating the bars to the rear-side replacing the two round bars, thus leaving top open. I had previously installed forward rod braces by narrowing round tubes to provide clearance for inserting additional set of trolling lugs on each side to couple the brace hardware. This helps take pressure off the reel foot, which is original chrome metal with clamp. Question is your opinion on moving the bar...do you think frame should remain almost as stable as before, as even adding additional screws into each side of the bar since the removed round bars will not be re-used, making 3 screws on each side?

Thank you.

Respectfully,

Eugene V. Wong

fishin.e@verizon.net
send me an email at alantani@yahoo.com for questions!

erikpowell

Thanks Eugene!
We appreciate your valuable input, information, stories, memories & thoughts. Thanks for sharing with us.
It's contributions like this that makes Alan's forum a reel gift to everyone, and a wealth of information.
Respectfully,
Erik Powell

jaypeegee

Awesome post.
I suggest it is edited and the contact details removed.

coastal_dan

A blast to read, hearing about things that didn't exist yet is wild.  All my fellow fisherman in my age range seem to just want the newest most up to date equipment that is brand new and bling.  I find a lot of joy in learning and working on reels that started some of these fishing revolutions.  I wonder who the next generation of 'Technical Reel Elite' will be...
Dan from Philadelphia...

Where Land Ends Life Begins...