Serviced 6 Internationals this week...a few observations

Started by Tightlines667, March 13, 2014, 08:57:38 PM

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Tightlines667

#45
Quote from: foakes on January 26, 2015, 01:52:47 AM
Boy, you really know what you are doing with those Internationals, John!

Great job --

When are you going to start blueprinting these?

I think you have the expertise, knowledge, and experience.

And Cal needs a little competition.

Best,

Fred

Thanks Fred!  I do like restoring these old 80s and 130s.  They are great workhorses, and capable of decades of heavy use.  Your not the first person who has suggested I get into 'Blueprinting'.  There seems to be plenty of straight servicing buisness here as is.  Not sure what the local demand for blueprinting would be.  Guess I have a few regular customers that would like upgraded reels. Honestly, I am not quite sure what true Blueprinting would require?

As I understand it, this process aims to achieve a specific drag curve (1-2lbs just out of freespool, 1/3 of recomended breakimg strength at strike and 50% more at max drag), and increasing the reel's effective max drag through such steps as...
-Changing the Belleville's (#, config, thickness)
-Modifying the drag pressure plates(i.e. honing them down), and/or drag discs
-Or Replacing stock with larger drag discs (I.E. 130 discs on an 80), this would require machining the left side of the spool in order to accomodate the larger diameter discs
-Honing down the floating drag disc
-Modifying the cam assembly

I would like to have the ability to resurface the floating metal drag discs, or retrue warped pressure plates (prob need a lathe?)
-Changing the drag spring
-Adjust shiming/spacing

The other skill (and means) that comes to mind that I lack, is creating head plate or bridge spacers, or modifying the inside of the head plate to convert single to 2-speed reels.  I can do a 2-speed conversion with new parts, but it seems a bit cost prohibitive.  

Sounds like to be able to do alot of this stuff, I would need access to a machine shop, and sone new skills, as well as the ability to anodize newly machined parts. 


Food for thought.

I am always willing to learn.
Hope springs eternal
for the consumate fishermen.

redsetta

This is turning into a great thread!
Thanks for sharing your insights.
Much appreciated, Justin
Fortitudine vincimus - By endurance we conquer

ohfishalee

this is really informative and is causing me to get psyched up to buy another 80w International now that I know that I can substitute  some 80stw and 70vs parts for the drag (hope I quoted the right reels, if not, I will look at this thread for sure!!)

Rivverrat

What an extremely, super cool thread. I enjoyed reading it...Jeff

alantani

we had breakfast last week.  yup, pretty sharp fella!
send me an email at alantani@yahoo.com for questions!

Rothmar2


Tightlines667

#51
After an extended leave of absence due to travel for my other job and prolonged illness, I am finally back at it again.

I just spent 6hrs on dissasembly of 2 reels.  The 80STW was in terrible condition due to neglect, and corrosion.  I had to drill out 7 seperate screws (1 stand bolt, 3 post, 1 handle, and 2 Clicker ratchet).  I needed to use all the tricks, and tools in my book just to get this baby dissasembled.  I need to get an arbor press for these frozen bridges.  The second reel, an 80SW went much smoother.  

The 80STW was a 1995 and appears to have been serviced once (old dried up grease, different pinion bearing, upgraded clicker assembly).  This reel was in terrible condition, and showed signs of heavy use, and neglect.  The drags were gen 3, and were heavily worn, with a broken drag spring (first one I've ever seen).  All the bearings were toast (2 drive shaft, 4 main), all 4 pins (2 speed, cam) were shot, the 2 speed pawl was also heavily corroded and worn.  I also replaced a main gear retainer, clicker ratchet, pawl, and spring, 2 speed spring, 4 Bellevilkes, all 3 Teflon washers, and the handle retainer.  Total parts cost was around $200.  It really needed a new right side plate, but this is cost prohibitive, so I will use sum bonding agent to ensure the cam housing stays put for a little while longer.  I also decided to refurb and shim on each side, the drags to keep total cost down.  Next service interval, it may need drags ($85+, and a side plate $205) though.  

The 80SW was a 1989 model, but appeared to be in marginally better overall condition.  The grease was dry, and there was definatwly corrosion, but it came apart in 1hr, and only needed the torch twice, and 3 screws to be drilled and retaped (post, handle, ratchet).  The pinion, and left plate bearing appeared nearly new, so it only needed 2 new spool bearings, a clicker ratchet, and pawl, 4 Bellevilles, 3 Teflon (I now have them in stock...Thanks Dom! & they are cheap), 7 screws, 4 pins, and a handle retainer.  Around $100 in parts.  

I ran both reels though the sonic cleaner, gonna finish the cleaning/deburring process, then relube, reassembly, and final shimming/adjustments.  I will keep you posted.
Hope springs eternal
for the consumate fishermen.

Alto Mare

Way to go resuscitating those babies John ;). Show the finished product, when done.
The owner might kiss you for those ;D, I know he'll be a happy camper.

Sal
Forget about all the reasons why something may not work. You only need to find one good reason why it will.

Tightlines667

#53
Here are a couple of pics of the badly corroded head plate on the 80STW.  This is a case where it should get replaced, but due to my customer's budget I took a much cheaper route...

I cleaned everything up, (sonic cleaner, files, wire brush, steel wool) and treated with a corrosion removing product.  Then after everything dried, I retapped the cam housing retaining screws, and bonded everything in place with a strong bonding agent made for a local tackle shop.  Alternatively, I may try using a strong metal bonding epixy/filker with aluminum shavings in it, in the future.

Once everything set up, this proved to form a strong bond between the headplate and cam housing.  There was no movement in the cam housing, and the lip is firmly supported by the remaining aluminum on the sideplate. The housing is also supported laterally by the bridge (which I made sure was not bonded to the other parts).  Typically the housing primarily experiences outward force by the cam assembly, which should help to keep it seated properly.  The only possible weakness would be if inward forces become excessive, but the outer assemblies typically prevent this from ocuring, and the lup is still supported by the 2 new retaining screws.

I have employed this same fix on 2 other badly corroded 80STW sideplates in the past, and I recieved positive feedback from one of the customers after a season of use.  I did replace 2 other sideplates that had this issue (and bad corrosion around the clicker assembly, and drive shaft) before, so I guess in these cases it is really a judgement call.  If corrosion prevents good support of the cam hoysing lip, clicker, or drive shaft inner bearing, the plate really does need replacing in order for the reel to function properly.  These sideplates are expensive, and I am alwats trying to find ways to save them money   
Hope springs eternal
for the consumate fishermen.

Reel 224

Just a suggestion but try using Steel Bed from Brownells it has S/S filings in it. Very strong stuff Brownells Catalog Pg 475
"I don't know the key to success,but the key to failure is trying to please everyone."

Tightlines667

#55
Quote from: Reel 224 on March 22, 2015, 02:00:43 AM
Just a suggestion but try using Steel Bed from Brownells it has S/S filings in it. Very strong stuff Brownells Catalog Pg 475

Thank you for that info.  Looks like high quality stuff. There are 2 problems though:
1)They will not ship to HI and there is no local distributor, 2)It is expensive

After a bit of research, I think I might go with the Devcon Alum. epoxy putty.

http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/stock-work-finishing/stock-bedding-adhesives/epoxy-metals-prod5808.aspx

This is available locally, is rated well, sets up much more quickly (I can't afford to let parts dry for 48hrs), and is much more cost-effective.  

Now I am wondering if there is a dye that I can mix with it to match the iconic Penn International Gold color.  Not sure if the gold anodizing dye can be used this way?  Or if I am better off with a printing dye, or powdercoat powder. This is new territory for me.  Any suggestions would be apprecuated.  I have been trying to find a quality product for filling corrosion pockets in the alum. parts on these reels.  This might fit the ticket.

Hope springs eternal
for the consumate fishermen.

Robert Janssen

....which in turn is a lot like JB Weld*, which is far more easily available, in small packages too.

But jeez, that sideplate has holes right through it...



*There are many types of JB Weld. One of them is aluminum powder filled, hi-temp. Sets very nicely, can be shaped, sanded and so on. Makes a very good filler. I don't recall right now what they call it. Look it up.

.

Tightlines667

Mr. Janssen,

Thanks for the info.  I have used the alum JB weldbon my duck boat, and it is solid stuff after it sets up.  Devcon seems to be rated a bit better.  The holes are covered by the bridge, so with some celephane, it would make a nice mold to fill in these gaps.  As it stands, I left this one be, like 2 of the other 4 reels I have seen with this level of corrosion.

Update:

I finished up the reassembly of the 80STW, but it still needs a bit of minor adjustment/shimming.  I've got 13hrs into this reel and counting.  Not surprisingly I ran into a few more problems.  The bridge needed some fine tuning to mount squarely and flush, and the bearing pockets needed a bit of fine tuning in order for them to mount perfectly square.  The drive shaft was binding on them when it was installed the first time.  The cam housing needed some sanding in order for the cam to fit and function properly.  and I opted to replace the entire clicker assembly with a used newer style outer, and a new spring and pawl.  The pawl was binding on the inner portion, and the threads were damaged, so it could not be tightened properly. 

A quick preliminary check of the reel, tells me the gears are aligning properly, and functioning well, the 2-speed is working great, the drag is smooth, but requires more preset adjust then is typical, and the clicker only functions in free spool.  I will play around with the shimming tmrw, to try to move the spool to the right, pinion to the left (decrease Belleville stack height), may add a shim under the inner drive plate, and may add a shim to the top of the clicker pawl (to move it to the left).  Then on to reassemblimg the 80SW.  So far, got about 2.5hrs into disassembly and cleaning of this one (much more typical). 
Hope springs eternal
for the consumate fishermen.

Reel 224

The bonding material I suggested from Brownells I am very familiar with, as I use it for bedding various rifles. It does take a long time to cure and that is part of it's strength (slow cure). I understand your application requires a fast method of repair, but JB weld isn't something I would rely on for mending a hole such as that for a long period of time. As for dye I'm not sure of how to obtain the anodized collar you are looking for. I would give Brownells a call and see if the Devcon will be good for your application. If shipping is a problem PM me and I can get it to you, maybe get a better price, shipping to HI I'm not sure of the cost. I'm surprised that there would be a problem for them to ship to you.

By the way the first kit I suggested comes with a bonding release agent so you can coat the parts you don't want to be bonded. Believe me this stuff will bond steel or any mettle permanently. I used it to bond a broken backalite handle on my ban saw 20 years ago. It's as solid as new today.   
"I don't know the key to success,but the key to failure is trying to please everyone."

Tightlines667

Finished up with the 80SW today.  It took 6.5hrs total.  Spent like 2hours on the final shimming/adjustments.  I ended up using the ((()| belleville config w/one shim.  This decreased the stack height by 0.6mm and gave the customer a bit more aggressive drag curve then stock. 

The 80STW got a pinion shim, and one on each of the 2 drag pressure plates, and 1 clicker pawl shim.

Both reels are working perfectly with the recommended drag at strike right at 1.5 turns in on the presets. 
Hope springs eternal
for the consumate fishermen.