Building a drag star

[Lensters]

Lensters,
Adam (Three se7ens) is on the up and up. I think you will be surprised what you can get these for.

I don't doubt he's going to do the best he can.  However, there is about the same amount of raw material (OK, half but still a lot) and more steps as machining a side plate.

I have not set a price yet.  I'm working on a production schedule that will cut the time involved down so I can offer them at a fair price.  That being said, the polishing adds a huge amount of time, and that's a killer on the price.  I could offer them as machined at a lower price though.

It might work better to replace the water cutter and lathe and go with the CNC for both of those steps.  The accuracy will suffer slightly but it will never be noticed for this application and it takes out a step.  Forget the polishing, if people want them polished they can do it themselves.  Most people have the skills to do that and the equipment is cheap enough.

[Tightlines667]

I wonder what the effective costs would be to send a batch off for powder coating, chroming, or anodizing?  Is it possible or viable?  Or are you just hiding that pretty SS?

[Rothmar2]

I'm not worried about the polishing, can do that myself. Just looked and can see why the buttress tap would be difficult to source. I would think jigging on a CNC lathe to do the thread would be the time effective way of doing it. Good on you Adam for what you have achieved so far, great work!

[handi2]

I think they look great and better more....Strong..!!

[Mandelstam]

I wonder what the effective costs would be to send a batch off for powder coating, chroming, or anodizing?  Is it possible or viable?  Or are you just hiding that pretty SS?

Nothing more pretty as polished SS...

[Dominick]

Nothing more pretty as polished SS...

Karl don't they have women in Sweden?     Dominick

[jurelometer]

Lensters,
Adam (Three se7ens) is on the up and up. I think you will be surprised what you can get these for.

I don't doubt he's going to do the best he can.  However, there is about the same amount of raw material (OK, half but still a lot) and more steps as machining a side plate.

I have not set a price yet.  I'm working on a production schedule that will cut the time involved down so I can offer them at a fair price.  That being said, the polishing adds a huge amount of time, and that's a killer on the price.  I could offer them as machined at a lower price though.

It might work better to replace the water cutter and lathe and go with the CNC for both of those steps.  The accuracy will suffer slightly but it will never be noticed for this application and it takes out a step.  Forget the polishing, if people want them polished they can do it themselves.  Most people have the skills to do that and the equipment is cheap enough.

My experience:  Going from a design in your head to a part dropping out of a CNC machine is fun, but it is a time intensive, multi-discipline, multi-iteration process.

As a rule, milling will be more accurate than waterjet.   CNC milling this part will use less material, and a higher level of finish off the machine is possible relative to waterjet/manual lathe.  But it would require creating the part files, machine instructions, etc.  plus creating fixture plate(s) of some sort. When you Cnc machine a part, you have to program speeds and feeds for every individual cut in advance,  so it can take a couple of runs to get it dialed in, esp. with less forgiving materials like stainless steel.  You need to acquire different bits for different cuts and  roughing vs. finishing.  Manual machining allows for instant adjustment of cuts based on what you are seeing. The waterjet will cut a part without any work hardening.

IMHO,  waterjet-manual lathe is a good match for small batches for this part.  If going to CNC & assuming all the CAD/CAM skills and software were free (the software is $$$), you might need to get into the hundreds of units to  break even.  If you had to hire out the programming or buy the software, you better be planning to charge big bucks or make thousands of units.

BTW- congrats to Adam and Dom.  That's some serious reel candy! 

[LTM]

Jurelometer/3-7's,

From your discussions, I assertain that the flats created along with the refined details (radiusing,etc) are possible via CNC and NOT AVAILABLE via WATERJET?  The flats and ergo's on this strar would be great additions to the star pattern referenced/liked by Sal, myself and others in the other thread by 3-7. Is it possible for you Adam to incorporate the flats and some of the other ergos into you other star design?

Thanx,

Leo

[Ron Jones]

I have to say that that is quite some innovation right there. I, and I'm sure everyone else here, has spent the day after fishing nursing sore fingertips from locking down narrow stars. I sincerely hope you bring these to market.
Ron

[jurelometer]

Jurelometer/3-7's,

From your discussions, I assertain that the flats created along with the refined details (radiusing,etc) are possible via CNC and NOT AVAILABLE via WATERJET?  The flats and ergo's on this strar would be great additions to the star pattern referenced/liked by Sal, myself and others in the other thread by 3-7. Is it possible for you Adam to incorporate the flats and some of the other ergos into you other star design?

Thanx,

Leo

Possible, but the cost keeps going up.  The market is small for these parts, so it gets tricky.

Here is a primer on the technology:

water jets (and lasers)  can cut on two dimensions ( typically cutting out flat shapes from a sheet). Pretty much whatever you can make in a line drawing. Simple to design and program a part to cut.  Parts can be cut as needed without too much setup.  Controlling the accuracy in depth of the cut is limited, so these machines are generally used to cut completely through the material, or to engrave the surface.  A milling machine can control the depth of the cut,  so it is more suited for 3D situations.  Design, planning, setup and cutting with a mill is much more complicated, with more that can go wrong.

Water jets and lasers are pretty much always computer controlled.  Lathes and mills can be either computer controlled or manual.   Computer controlled (CNC) machines are accurate, but they are not smart. They take a set of simple instructions (gcode) and blindly follow.   The gcode will include steps like rotate the bit clockwise 500 rpm, move  -.005 inch on Z axis  ( down) at 2inches per minute,   Etc. etc.)   The cut management (CAM) software helps you generate  the gcode from the shapes generated by the design (CAD) software.

And then there is 3D  printing - small batches of complex parts become more practical. Metal printing machines  and raw material are too expensive now, but perhaps in the somewhat distant future we will be exploiting  the technology for 3d  shark shaped titanium reel handles and other noble pursuits. 

[Three se7ens]

CNC milling would be the way to go for a large batch of parts, and is what the OEMs use on newer reels with profiled drag stars.  But it's only cost effective there because they do runs of thousands of parts at a time, and can amortize the programming and tooling cost across as many pieces.  Small production runs and one-off parts are significantly more expensive per piece. 

In the course of cutting this one drag star, I had nearly 2 hours of time into machining it, and much of that was just setting up for the different cuts, changing the tooling, etc.  There is time to be saved by doing each operation on a batch of parts before changing the tool, but there is still a good bit of cutting time into these. 

The real question is what would you be willing to pay for these if I did produce them?

[erikpowell]

I have to say that that is quite some innovation right there. I, and I'm sure everyone else here, has spent the day after fishing nursing sore fingertips from locking down narrow stars. I sincerely hope you bring these to market.
Ron

x2 Adam.. very nice work, and way to raise the bar mate! 

I'll toss the first number out there for a custom 316 star, not the 1 manual one you did, but with some production run in the 100's maybe..
How about 20 bucks to start??

Keep up the good work! I'm eagerly awaiting 114/115 stars ! 

[Irish Jigger]

Has anyone considered screw cutting the buttress thread on a lathe and using the Sleeve as a gauge?

[Three se7ens]

Has anyone considered screw cutting the buttress thread on a lathe and using the Sleeve as a gauge?

I have, but my machine won't turn slow enough until I get the new motor installed. Low speed is 250 rpm at the moment...

Btw, just those Waterjet cut blanks are $15 each for me to buy.

[broadway]

Adam,
   That star is a beautiful thing! With this star you're adding strength, comfort, function, and aesthetics.... I'm a fan!
I would love to see them, like Erik, at $20, but I think around $35 would be fair considering all the work going into it, but only you know the value of your time.
I'm just basing my numbers off all the other custom parts being made, so don't hold me to it.
Thanks for bringing these to the market... hopefully!
Dom