Newell -- Purpose of the thrust washer under the gearbox

[franky]

Hello Alan,

I was reading your post on the newell tutorial as I was working on some newells.  You mentioned:

"the washer that i put under the gear is a #6-113, gooped up with shimano drag grease.  it's the thicker version of the #6-60 found in the old black side plate penn 113"

In looking at my charts, is that the same #6-113H that is used in the 5 stack drag gearbox for the HLW113 Red 4/0 Senator?  Also, what is the purpose/function for this washer under the gearbox?  

I ask this because I've noticed that some newells have better bite in the drag and some don't...    I've been trying to find ways to increase the drag power by putting an additional drag lock washer #3-18 under the star.  This does not appear to significantly increase the power; it just creates a "forever on drag".  

I then thought since you cannot add to the drag stack inside of the gearbox, perhaps by using a beefier washer "under the drag stack" it will move the gearbox slightly up the bridge sleeve putting it closer to the star that would give the drag a more immediate and perhaps stronger bite as you turn the star.  Is this correct?

I also hope that by moving the gearbox slightly up the bridge sleeve, it would not negatively affect the proper contact or allignment with the pinion gear.  

What's your thoughts...

 

[Bryan Young]

Hey Franky,

Did I answer your question when we last talked?  I cannot recall.  If not, here is my take.

The washer under the gear box.  It has several functions, one of which, isolates the gear from the bridge sleeve.  If it's a little sticky, you may have just lost a fish due to a slight sticky drag.  If you are going to change all composite washers to greased carbon drag washers, it's a good idea to spend another buck to replace the one under the gear.

There are ways to increase the drag range by adding additional washers (if your box has the room), adding or reconfiguring bevel washers or even increasing the lenght of the drag spacer.  Don't over do it though.  It's a composite reel and will snap.

Good luck.

By the way, have you had a chance to try the TSI 321 yet?

[franky]

Thanks Bryan,

Yeah, for the first time, I actually took apart the sealed bearing using a small fish hook as Alan illustrated.  I had previously asked the question if it made a difference removing the shield on the bearings or not....the answer is, YES, it does make a world of difference!    

I used to be nervous about tampering with the bearings, but once you do it, its not that bad.  Previously, I thought that by dunking the whole sealed bearing into the lighter fluid, it would seep into the cracks and clean out the bearings....Nope!  When I removed the shield I noticed that the ball bearings had a slight yellow sticky film still on the balls.  When I shot it with the pressured air, the balls did not spin on the race freely due to this thin layer of residue.  Now with the shields off, i dunked the open bearings into the lighter fluid and Whalah...the balls spinned like crazy when I shot it with the compressed air.  Bottom line OPEN THE BEARINGS!!!

Then I applied a drop of the TSI 321 and yes the lube is very thin and my newell spinned like crazy.  When compared to the speed-X, it seemed to have about the same results.  I then applied a drop of speed-X in addition to the TSI321 hoping that it will give the bearings a little corrosion protection.  I'm not positively sure, but I hope speed-X has the anti-corrosion property like corrosion X...

Oh, and as for the thrust washer, since newell and penn have different sizes (inside diameter) for the gear sleeve, I will try your suggestion of using the same size carbontex washer inside the gearbox and put one under the gearbox and grease it.

I did not get a chance to actually cast the reel yet.  I'll keep you posted!  My target...150 yards 



Thanks,

[Bryan Young]

150 yards?  Wow, I could only dream of hitting 100 yards back in my time with the Sabre or Fenwick 61010, 13', 6-8 oz lead.  On football field, 75 yards is my best.  Then again, I was only in HS and haven't slide bait since then.

I'm excited to hear of your results.

[Norcal Pescador]

Thanks Bryan,

Yeah, for the first time, I actually took apart the sealed bearing using a small fish hook as Alan illustrated.  I had previously asked the question if it made a difference removing the shield on the bearings or not....the answer is, YES, it does make a world of difference!    
. . . . Bottom line OPEN THE BEARINGS!!! 

That's good to know! I've got a Newell 220-5 and will probably open it up once AGAIN and take the shields off of the bearings along with my 113H and 114H.

Then I applied a drop of the TSI 321 and yes the lube is very thin and my newell spinned like crazy.  When compared to the speed-X, it seemed to have about the same results.  I then applied a drop of speed-X in addition to the TSI321 hoping that it will give the bearings a little corrosion protection.  I'm not positively sure, but I hope speed-X has the anti-corrosion property like corrosion X...

I'd like to know if that's too much lube in the bearings; that is, if a dynamic wave will slow them down.

Oh, and as for the thrust washer, since newell and penn have different sizes (inside diameter) for the gear sleeve, I will try your suggestion of using the same size carbontex washer inside the gearbox and put one under the gearbox and grease it.

Is that a 220 are you working on? When I put a 6-113 washer under the main gear, I had to reduce the outside diameter a tiny bit so it would fit in the recess in the bottom of the gear. It wouldn't go together right until I did.

I did not get a chance to actually cast the reel yet.  I'll keep you posted!  My target...150 yards 

Looking forward to hearing the results!
Rob

[franky]

Then I applied a drop of the TSI 321 and yes the lube is very thin and my newell spinned like crazy.  When compared to the speed-X, it seemed to have about the same results.  I then applied a drop of speed-X in addition to the TSI321 hoping that it will give the bearings a little corrosion protection.  I'm not positively sure, but I hope speed-X has the anti-corrosion property like corrosion X...

I'd like to know if that's too much lube in the bearings; that is, if a dynamic wave will slow them down.

Hello NP,

Yes, I also thought about the same....(dynamic wave) when I applied the next drop of speed-x onto the TSI.  Like Alan was saying though, it it just an added insurance to "hopefully" prevent corrosion.  I am hoping that maybe as I cast and the bearings spin at a very high rmp, maybe, just maybe, the very little excess will "hopefully" splash out since I kept the shields off.  If there is a dynamic wave in front of the balls that will cause it to slow down, I am hoping that as I cast, the distance will improve...wish me luck.

Actually, if I had my way, I would run the bearings dry!  After I soaked the bearings in the lighter fluid, WOW!   it spinned the best I have ever seen it!  I think even better than putting a little of any lube on it.  Jim Nomura gave the example of throwing a dry marble on a table top....that thing will travel on and on... disadvantage though is the risk of corrosion especially when using the reel in salt water.  Another option that came to mind is how about using ceramic bearings with ceramic races and leave them dry...the bugga is super noisy on the cast, but I would imagine the results of freespool...talk about the "Hey look at me...look at me" kind of attention you'll get while casting at the beach bombing 100 plus yards with such a noisy reel  ha ha

Oh, and as for the thrust washer, since newell and penn have different sizes (inside diameter) for the gear sleeve, I will try your suggestion of using the same size carbontex washer inside the gearbox and put one under the gearbox and grease it.

Is that a 220 are you working on? When I put a 6-113 washer under the main gear, I had to reduce the outside diameter a tiny bit so it would fit in the recess in the bottom of the gear. It wouldn't go together right until I did.

I have a newell S540 , S550, and S646.  The 500 series drag stack in these models are 3 carbon fiber washers.  The 600 series has a 5 stack carbon fiber washer.  I believe newell had an older model that used to have an added washer under the drag stack that made some of the 344 or the 454 series a 4 stack drag...not too sure.  

Anyway, the model I have, has a thrust washer under the gearbox.  This washer seems thin and not as durable as the carbontex that sits inside of the gearbox.  Unfortunately, when dealing with newells, you cannot use the penn washer because the penn gear sleeve seems fatter than the newell gear sleeve.  That is why if you try to install the ht-100 carbon washer of a penn into a newell, the washer will wiggle because the inside diameter of the ht100 washer is bigger than the newell gear sleeve.  In that case, I use the cabontex washer that sits inside of the newell gearbox and install that same washer underneath the gearbox to replace the thrust washer.  The carbontex washer is now bigger and more durable than the original thrust washer.  

My question to Alan or Bryan is...Do I have to trim the outside diameter of the carbontex that is being used to replace the original thrust washer under the gearbox so that it matches the original size of the newell thrust washer?  or is it not necessary.

I did not get a chance to actually cast the reel yet.  I'll keep you posted!  My target...150 yards  

Looking forward to hearing the results!
Rob

[Bryan Young]

Thrust Washer - As long as the washer does not interfere with the dog, you don't have any issues.  On a few of my reels, the thrust washer is the same as the OD of the cog (I don't know what to call it) of the bridge sleeve, some are same OD as the smaller OD of the cog, and some even smaller.    Personally, I haven't seen any difference, but I do prefer the same OD as the smaller OD of the cog so that there are limited mixing of lubes.

The smaller OD is basically the OD minus the cog's teeth.  If you guys don't understand what I'm talking about, I'll take a pic.  Let me know.

[franky]

Thrust Washer - As long as the washer does not interfere with the dog, you don't have any issues.  On a few of my reels, the thrust washer is the same as the OD of the cog (I don't know what to call it) of the bridge sleeve, some are same OD as the smaller OD of the cog, and some even smaller.    Personally, I haven't seen any difference, but I do prefer the same OD as the smaller OD of the cog so that there are limited mixing of lubes.

The smaller OD is basically the OD minus the cog's teeth.  If you guys don't understand what I'm talking about, I'll take a pic.  Let me know.

Excellent description.  Very well said Bryan...I totally understand.

[alantani]

there is actually a better answer.  dawn from smoothdrag.com has a tightly woven drag washer that fits underneath the main gear.  that one washer makes the purchase of a newell carbontex drag set worthwhile. 

[franky]

there is actually a better answer.  dawn from smoothdrag.com has a tightly woven drag washer that fits underneath the main gear.  that one washer makes the purchase of a newell carbontex drag set worthwhile. 

Hello Alan,

What part Number is that?  I could use a few of those...

[Bryan Young]

It's probably easiest to send Dawn an email or call her.  She can cross-reference and would be able to get you what you need.