The Modern Lever Drag Reel and You :).

[johndtuttle]

I posted this some months ago on other sites but never here. This repost is to clarify some thoughts that I haven't made crystal clear in some of my tutorials. It's a discussion that summarizes as follows "one reel's 20 lbs of drag is not the same as another's..."


"This post is probably wind bag blah blah to some but we talk about reels a lot and some discussion of what the small and light Lever Drag reels can and cannot do is worth talking about. I originally posted this in a well known Long Range forum where the combined experience in years of fishing Cow yellowfin tuna on the West Coast runs into the decades. There was not one word of dissent.

As well, I have rediscovered my hobby of working on my reels and see things with a new light having taken apart many of the new offerings in addition to the ones I've fished.

The point being that one reel's 25lbs of drag is not another's.

A modern Big Game 50 X makes 25lbs reliably for huge fish that make 700 yard runs. Time and time again, year after year. This is about all the drag most anglers can handle be they stand up, rail or chair fisherman (this is in general, YMMV...). But even these reels cannot stop some fish. Even reels this size can get broken by demon fish that no one will ever see. But they can fish day in and day out on a 15 day Cow hunt out of San Diego and land multiple "normal" 200lb fish without a hiccup.

A modern Big Game 50 weighs ~4 lbs spooled up. Kinda boat anchor like for holding in your hands all day. But they are built that heavy for a reason.

Smaller and lighter Lever Drag reels that make "25lbs" are only intended to do that on smaller grade fish that can easily be stopped short by that amount of drag. They excel at that particularly when there is structure to cut you off on the bottom. They may have 2-speeds for extra cranking power and their light weight is a joy to fish all day. They cast iron and bait amazingly well.

But they cannot make 25lbs of drag on a 500 yard run time and time again and not come to grief. They cannot be pushed to "Full" past that 25lbs to 30+ lbs and then when spooled by a freight train not likely be the worse for the wear. Modern small lever drags come in at about 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 lbs (3 times less than a reel truly built to handle 25lbs of drag and long runs day in and day out). They are built that light for good reason so as to be a pleasure to fish, especially for the more energetic techniques (Wahoo, yo-yo, vertical jigging etc.). They excel at having extra drag for stopping Yellowtail/Amberjacks near the bottom and provide extra cranking power on bigger fish.

But the laws of metallurgy have not been repealed and they simply cannot do what true big game reels do and vice-versa. That Big Game reel is built 3 times heavier for good reasons: For stiffness and to manage heat. The gears and bearings are massively bigger. If you can turn the handle against the pressure the reel can take it with no flex or damage to the drivetrain etc...Just don't kid yourself that your lightweight 2-speed can do it just as well. These reels may have been made lighter, but they have not been made stronger. You should realize that you have made a trade off to go light and the short end of that trade is coming if you fish it long enough.

Every time we fish light tackle we should accept that it could get utterly abused anytime, anywhere offshore. Anytime you are casting for Wahoo or Jigging in Cow country you should be prepared to get blown up. I have been given the impression that some do not grasp that fact. Hence this post.

The modern light lever drag reel is a great leap forward for light tackle fishing, but the strength and reliability gap still yawns wide between them and true Big Game reels for truly big fish.

And getting abused by a fish is not a bad thing necessarily, just understand your gear and it's limitations and don't think it's something it is not. Fishing over the years those ounces are getting more and more important to me and I happily make that trade when I can. I enjoy making a nice fish bigger by fighting it on light gear as long as I am not inconveniencing my fellow anglers or crew unless I paid for the whole boat. I have been a big supporter and encourager of light tackle jigging and popping for big fish.

But I don't kid myself that I am rigged for bear. I am consciously taking a knife to a fight it should handle with some skill...but it could turn out I actually needed the heavy artillery let alone a gun if I get bit heavy offshore.

The reel companies have made amazing new reels for us to fish, but they have limitations. If you want to save weight or want better casting etc. you have to acknowledge those limitations or a fish will eventually point them out to you.


best



ps Posted for discussion, one man's observations, your mileage may vary ."

[jonnou]

I hear you John right reel for the job but what about the large spinning reels they seen to be doing the job with pitchbaiting for Marlin and other large game fish. I have a cheap one of these reels and it produces 20kg plus of drag (yes have tested it)
I think this reel would, as you say not handle long sustained runs as it is missing some features of the more expensive reels.
But the drag is massive thing is who can hold that sort of pressure? Makes you think that these drag numbers are a great marketing tool but are setting you up to fail.
all good though
Cheers Jon

[johndtuttle]

I hear you John right reel for the job but what about the large spinning reels they seen to be doing the job with pitchbaiting for Marlin and other large game fish. I have a cheap one of these reels and it produces 20kg plus of drag (yes have tested it)
I think this reel would, as you say not handle long sustained runs as it is missing some features of the more expensive reels.
But the drag is massive thing is who can hold that sort of pressure? Makes you think that these drag numbers are a great marketing tool but are setting you up to fail.
all good though
Cheers Jon

Believe it or not Spinners have big advantages here with heat dissipation. The frame of a spinning reel is almost entirely unaffected by heat as it's all in the spool. Conversely, the frame of a conventional reel is greatly affected by heat buildup in the drag and when the frame gets hot, things stretch out of tolerance and damage to the gear train soon follows. So this is actually a significant advantage for spinning reels for light tackle fishing. At the cost of double or triple or more of course in terms of $$$. But even "cheapo" spinning reels have amazing drags these days as they are so easy to engineer.

I had some good discussion with my friend Alan Hawk about this and the net result was his downgrading of the Fin Nor Lethal 100's drag rating in his lists. That reel can put out a huge dead lift drag number, but the spool cap is plastic and would be easily fried in a long run. Only the true "Super Spinners" are engineered to handle the heat and stress (and have metal drag caps) even though some of the less expensive reels can make that big number in a dead lift. He now puts the Lethal 100 at the top of a "second tier" of drags which is far more appropriate as compared to the engineering of a Stella's or Saltiga's spool and drag which are truly top tier.

To bring it back home, I could easily do a dead lift test with the Fathom LD2 and establish a "max drag" by hammering down the lever that would be in excess of Penn's published number...but I am more interested in a number where you can actually move the lever reasonably easily from strike to full without Herculean effort...A number that really is the "fishable" range for the angler. I think that 20lbs is a good number.

[Shark Hunter]

Good Post John,
The lighter two speeds definitely bring a lot to the table. I love my Senators and have fished a spinner most of my Life until now. I will keep fishing my Big 12/0's, because that's how I like to do it for the time being. I am not sold on the lighter two speed reels as of yet. My lightest and only two speed is an Everol 14/0. I do want to get a Fin Nor lethal. Seems like a lot of bang for the buck.

[jonnou]

Good info there going to check my spool cap now

I was thinking it was a heat thing as i have noticed the fancy cutouts and slots in the spools of these spinners
like you see in brake calipers
I will save my chepo 20kg drag for the 4th marlin of the day then

[MFB]

I agree with Jon about the use of drag figures for marketing, this is just the latest in a long series of marketing ploys to increase sales. Sure drag is important but it's only part of a bigger equation. Rod lengths & weights (actions), gear ratios, spool diameters, line (mono/braid) all add to get the final result. A little while ago it used to be number of bearings in a reel and it there was a competition among manufacturers as to who could fit he most amount of bearings into reel whether they were needed or not. I also agree with John about not being able to short cut physics. The light that shines twice as bright only burns half as long.

Rgds

Mark   

[jonnou]

Just checked the spool cap mostly metal but saw I misquoted sorry 30kgs max drag power

[Alto Mare]

Believe it or not Spinners have big advantages here with heat dissipation. The frame of a spinning reel is almost entirely unaffected by heat as it's all in the spool. Conversely, the frame of a conventional reel is greatly affected by heat buildup in the drag and when the frame gets hot, things stretch out of tolerance and damage to the gear train soon follows. So this is actually a significant advantage for spinning reels for light tackle fishing. At the cost of double or triple or more of course in terms of $$$. But even "cheapo" spinning reels have amazing drags these days as they are so easy to engineer.

There is good and bad in everything , the design of  spinners in general has other weak links.

[johndtuttle]

Just checked the spool cap mostly metal but saw I misquoted sorry 30kgs max drag power

Where the cap touches the washers is the key. Most of the less expensive reels have plastic on the cap in contact with the first metal washer.

[johndtuttle]

Believe it or not Spinners have big advantages here with heat dissipation. The frame of a spinning reel is almost entirely unaffected by heat as it's all in the spool. Conversely, the frame of a conventional reel is greatly affected by heat buildup in the drag and when the frame gets hot, things stretch out of tolerance and damage to the gear train soon follows. So this is actually a significant advantage for spinning reels for light tackle fishing. At the cost of double or triple or more of course in terms of $$$. But even "cheapo" spinning reels have amazing drags these days as they are so easy to engineer.

There is good and bad in everything , the design of  spinners in general has other weak links.

absolutely Sal. the drag is being considered in isolation here.

[foakes]

Thanks for this, John --

Your attention to detail, and your knowledge concerning the engineering qualities of our tackle -- is something I can count on.

Like Sal said, we have some serious talent on this board -- and the talent comes in many forms -- ranging from analyzing, testing, service, modifications, better techniques, better after market products, real water time testing, and hundreds of years of combined experience.

And all of the folks here are unselfishly ready to share their knowledge in a friendly manner.

This is a very capable site, and a tribute to Alan and others for nurturing it to this high standard.

Best,

Fred

[Jeri]

Hi guys,

An interesting discussion, and has many aspects to comment on.

First, I'll put my hand up and say that I am a serious fan of the current batch of small lever drag reels, but then I use them in a different context to what is being discussed here, which is seriously large fish offshore. That said I have done my fair share of game fishing, and some of what we put our surf casting tackle through could easily be construed as game fishing – though admittedly we are not putting 20lbs of drag pressure through many of our rods – perhaps sustained 15lbs.

Have yet to have any serious problems with the small lever drag reels, despite a goodly number of fish that are taking upwards of 200 metres of line off the reel – though admittedly that is not a 200lb Cow YF.

I have also done some serious light line fishing for game species, and again never found the smaller lever drag reels to have a shortcoming – though they were always full metal reels, not graphite bodied. Long fights against more moderate drag setting, and still no failures.

The one aspect about comments on the physics, is that pure carbon is a poor conductor of heat, while the stainless steel pressure plates will obviously conduct heat through to that side of the reel, which then leads to pinion gears, bearings and ultimately the frame. The heat is not travelling towards the spool.

However, when you look at 'spinners' the heat dissipation is directly to the spool, and if not adequately handled on the inside of the spool through to the air, then the heated spool will surely have influence on the strength of the line – braid or mono closest to the spool main body or the flanges.

The issue of whether a reel has a metal spool cap or plastic might be mute, as sure there will be some heat going up the shaft, but how much more will be going into the spool, and at that point what has happened to the line. I would hypothesise, that the line may have been fatally damaged before the plastic spool cap melts.

These are all very interesting discussion points, and in the case of spinners, it would be interesting to test, how long it took a reel to melt the line or melt the plastic spool cap – to offer a definitive answer to whether a plastic spool cap is a drawback.

Sure in a perfect world, we would all like to see the optimum from all reel manufacturers, but that ain't gonna happen!!!! Money interferes with the equation.

In a perfect world, we wouldn't need after market components, like those manufactured by Dawn and Co. Our reels would be perfect and not need for enhancements. But that does bring to the fore, whether someone is going to be enterprising enough to make metal spool caps for Finnor Lethal 100s???

Being an eternal sceptic and an engineer, I am always worried when I see any sales literature that has meaningless numbers in it – bearings in reels, drag pressure, IM numbers for the carbon content of rods, etc. We have all seen how the Bass anglers went rushing down the IM trail seeking better rods, to only find that as the numbers went up, the rods became more fragile.  We have seen it here in southern Africa with surf anglers and some manufacturers chasing modulus numbers, and the general angling public sucking it up.

At the end of the day, I should never have targeted a 220kg Blue Marlin with a Penn International 16, but after 2 hours of fighting the beast on a short stroker rod, it worked; however, on another day I would never have even contemplated putting that rod out there with such fish in the area.

We should all look to the adage that you get what you pay for, and be prepared for the things to go wrong, as always 'fish can't read' the decal on the side plate of your reel.

Just my humble opinions.

Cheers from sunny Africa


Jeri

[johndtuttle]

Hey Jeri,

Thanks for that and your comments are most welcome.

The backdrop for my post was a recent trip to Panama by some acquaintances that I originally met there and the failure of their small LD reels (Accurate and Shimano) on big tuna. Some in their group expressed their belief that if a reel had a max drag of 25lbs then surely it should be able to handle that for a run taking it's entire capacity (ie 500yards)...? Well, no, just as you have found they are absolutely brilliant for shorter runs and their high drag is awesome, but there comes a point when they just can't take it.

Don't get me wrong, I think the light 2-speed reels are absolutely brilliant, but if I said the Fathom 15LD could make 30lbs of drag there are those that think it could be used just like a Penn 50VSX...and then would complain when after getting spooled their reel just wasn't the same any more.

This is a link to the original thread which I think is a good read:

http://360tuna.com/index.php?/topic/40150-the-modern-lever-drag-reel-and-you/

When it comes to spinners the issue is not so much the overall material of the drag cap but the material of the interface between the cap and the drag stack. The Cap is effectively the top "washer" and so the underside of the cap feels as much heat as anything. The same site has the posts talking about melted Saragosas:

http://360tuna.com/index.php?/topic/15828-saragosa-and-nc-bluefin/

Of course, this is only on the biggest fish targeted with spinning reels etc but it makes clear that among spinners one reel's 25lbs (Saragosa) is not the same as another's (Stella) as far as their ability to handle a long run.

The analogy was made earlier that some cars can go for 300,000 miles at freeway speeds, but if you try and go at their top speed they will blow up in a few minutes to hours. The small LD reels at their max drag are on the verge of blowing up, whereas a true big game reel has a lot of room to handle that same 25lbs for years to come. That is what you get for those extra pounds in a Big Game conventional or extra $$$ in a Stella.

[johnachak]

Well the whole spinning reel melted cap discussion explains why I saw a large surf reel with a wingnut instead of the plastic cap. It actually makes more sense now. If you have an aluminum spool, a stainless shaft, stainless washers at the top of the drag to have a stainless wingnut on top. I have had to replace the plastic caps which have gotten hot and eventually cracked.

As for the modern mini lever drag reels, I don't fish for tuna. Mostly Striped Bass and bottom fish. (Cod, tautog, Seabass). I see no reason to replace any of my current gear which serves me so well. I have several friends jumping on the bandwagon though and I see them out there blackfishing with a $279 lever drag reel that gets all the oohs and aahs. I guess around here it' the same reason someone would buy a Hummer or a huge LandRover to drive locally. It's nice to know that those reels really do have a target fishery and aren' just "bling".

[doradoben]

Reading the original post and the linked thread at 360tuna was very educational for me. The smallest 2 speed that I have is an International 12VSX, and thought it was small when I was buying it. I've seen people with very small 2 speeds on the So. Cal. Party boats, but never understood the purpose of them. They fish line tests that, in my opinion, don't justify a lever drag or a 2 speed for the same fish that have easily been landed with the same single speed star drag reels for the last 30 years. I can't think of a good reason for me to buy a 2 speed that  has  6/4 to 1 ratio and holds 300 yd. of 30 lb. braid. Maybe I just don't understand marketing..