Coating metal drag washers.

[Jeri]

Hi  Sal,

I have only just read your thread on the modified main gear, drag washers and metal drag washers. All very inspirational, and certainly proves the point of drilling out the metal washers and main gear, is going to improve the prospects of heat dissipation.

I was really only commenting on the option of cerakote coating the stainless steel discs in a reel, as opposed to leaving them as plain stainless – which was the original part of this thread. In my typical long winded way – I strayed to other parts of the story in the motor bikes and introduced the drilled stainless and cast iron bike brakes.

From those heady days of racing – we did find that the drilled cast iron were by far better than stainless, but in today's performance machines the unsprung weight of cast iron over stainless – leaves the cast iron in the designers book – unused.

I would concur that having less mass, the drill metal washers in your drag will suffer less heat problems, though there might be a case to answer for the holes reducing drag surface area available to the carbon washers. But thinner metal washers in the stack might well allow additional plates to be added to further increase potential total drag figure.

Ultimately, obviously because of the environment of our reels, the stainless steel as a drag component is fairly guaranteed, purely on cost, until a suitable alternative is found that gives better braking performance – maybe ceramic main disc working with either carbon or some other type material will prove to be the 'new' ultimate – just don't drop them off the work bench!!! We use ceramic components on nearly all our fishing rods, and they are certainly cheap enough, exceptional low friction coefficient, and very strong in compression – the incentive to design and test ceramic disc plates would need someone with fairly specialist equipment – but would certainly provide a better non-friction plate than stainless steel – something for the future?

I too worked in civil engineering for 30+ years, and often asked design engineers the simple question: "Just what are you trying to achieve?" – and often provided a much simpler solutions. Most situations need solutions from the guys with dirt on their hands or boots, not wearing suits!!!!

As has been stated, even failures should teach us something.

Just my thoughts.

Cheers from sunny Africa


Jeri

[Alto Mare]

Yes Jeri, your comments are usually long, but I've been enjoying every one of them . It's been a privilege having you here.

[VW]

#1, Try it and see
#2, Drags work on friction, I've tested smooth and roughed up washers and could not tell the difference but too smooth might not be a good thing.

I would bet it is not a good idea but I've been wrong more than once in my life.

Sorry Lee but I might have to respectfully dissagree here.  I think in order to have the smoothest possible drag, you want the metal washer(s) that the Greased weaves carbon fiber washers are operating on to:

1)be perfectly flat, round, and hard/ridgid
2)be perfectly smooth, polished is better then dull, no gouging/mating, scratches or pockets.  I think less unevenness even on a microscopic level will provide less startup friction or and friction related to acceleration/deceleration or increases/decreases in applied force between the surfaces.
3)have both surfaces' coefficient of friction remain relatively constant with changes in heat.  

For all of these reasons, I kinda think a ceramic or ceramic coated drag plate/or replacement metal washers would make for an ultrasmooth drag system.  If it gets too slick you might lose a little max drag though.  Not saying I'm right here but it would be cool to try to borrow a page out of the high end aircraft breaks engineering book, and apply this technology to fishing reels.  Not sure what the cost considerations here would be though.  Add electromagnets and now we are talking high end controllable breaking.

Might be interesting to test out some different coatings.  Not sure if a Tefon or Ceramic type coating would be too slick?  This is not my area of expertise.

You have obviously given this some thought and seem familiar with the product.  If you do Cerakote some washers, an experiment I will suggest is test without grease. It may not be needed. If you use new discs and test them dry first, it may give interesting info about how well it works.  Can always test again with grease. 

[Tiddlerbasher]

Ceramic/ CF/ Kevlar are now popular brake materials - Aeroplanes, F1, GT sports etc. Very different from our application but, why not, why not try

[Robert Janssen]

... I think in order to have the smoothest possible drag, you want the metal washer(s) that the Greased weaves carbon fiber washers are operating on to:

1)be perfectly flat, round, and hard/ridgid Yes
2)be perfectly smooth, polished is better then dull, no gouging/mating, scratches or pockets.  I think less unevenness even on a microscopic level will provide less startup friction or and friction related to acceleration/deceleration or increases/decreases in applied force between the surfaces. Oh, idunno... I think there is a pleasant inbetween here. I used to consider perfectly smooth to be advantageous, but recall discussing this with Jack Erskine many years ago, and he mentioning that a very finely, light bead blasted surface was providing him with a reduction in startup / stick-slip. Likewise, Smooth Drag uses a as-ground surface, and automotive clutches and brakes (although in many regards an entirely different application) use a ground surface finish of varying fineness, but seldom polished.

3)have both surfaces' coefficient of friction remain relatively constant with changes in heat.  Yes, this is paramount and has always been. HT-100 and similar carbon fiber varieties excel in this regard. Somewhat strangely, seldom is attention paid to the material in the opposing surface, even though it is quite precisely half of the equation. I suppose it is so simple as to be considered a default material... stainless steel is what is most suitable for the usual reasons of cost, availability, manufacturing ease and so on, that is all. It is what it is.

For all of these reasons, I kinda think a ceramic or ceramic coated drag plate/or replacement metal washers would make for an ultrasmooth drag system.  If it gets too slick you might lose a little max drag though.  Not saying I'm right here but it would be cool to try to borrow a page out of the high end aircraft breaks engineering book, and apply this technology to fishing reels. Quantum has been doing this in their fishing reels for ten years.

[Tightlines667]

Robert,

Thank you for weighing in on this one.  And O..yea..I completly forgot about the quantum reels.  I actually don't have any direct experience with these but I remember all of the hype surrounding the changes to their drag systems.  It's interesting that a bead blasted surface with some presumably somewhat consistent microscopic unevenness in the metal surface would outperform a super slick surface (like that found on the ceramic brakes of some aircraft and some modern trains.  I am guessing cost considerations weigh in when it comes to utilizing ceramic or ceramic coated products.  Still a bit unsure about the possible affects in performance when paired with the HT-100s though.