Shimano Spool Bearing sleeves (TLD 5)

[Rothmar2]

I recently got asked about making a bearing sleeve for TLD 5's. Its not something that has ever really worried me personally, as I only use lever-drags for trolling. But after having a search through the forum, I found that this whole TLD bearing sleeve question had been asked several times, but without a real clear explanation as to how it's done.
What I am going to show here is how I have gone about it. I am not completely convinced that what I have done helps. I would be very keen to hear what others think.
I understand that AlanT has kits he is trying to put together for this. I'm very interested to what his solution is for this "tilting to the right" problem with these reels.

Here is the shaft, showing the C clip which is the core of the problem





With the right spool bearing butted up against it as it would be in the reel.



I was curious to find out approximately how "over length" this C clip is. I machined up a brass plug that would fit inside the bearing recess. The OD was slightly under the bearing OD, but this plug would still rest against the base of the bearing cup of the spool. Obviously the ID would slide over the shaft, and rest against the C clip, while it is in place. Didn't really matter about the length of the plug, I am only trying to find the distance of the C-clip "above" the spool bearing cup, by noting the difference in height of the plug with the C-clip on and off the shaft.



With the C-clip on the shaft, assemble the spool with the left bearing, bellevilles and shims, and the ratchet cover screwed in place.
Then drop in the plug from the right side of the spool (no right side bearing fitted). Measure height of spool lip to top of plug with a depth gauge.



Take the shaft assembly out again and remove the C-clip from the shaft



Then reassemble the spool and shaft again. Drop in the plug from the right side. It will now rest in the bottom of the cup in the spool



And measure the depth with the gauge.



If you look closely, you can see that there is approx 1mm difference between the two depth measurements.

Now measure (roughly) the distance from the inside of left spool bearing, to the right end of the C-clip groove in the shaft.



And subtract the thickness of the C-clip



At this point I'll mention that to make a sleeve you have to machine one. The problem is the piece that the bellevilles , and the left spool bearing fit onto (the preload body). It is of larger diameter and protrudes beyond the inner race of the left spool bearing by about 1mm. You can't just cut a piece of tube, you have to have a step in your spool sleeve





Basically you need to allow for the 7mm preload body OD at the left end and 5mm for the spool shaft at the right end. The wall thickness where the sleeve butts up against the inner races of the bearings is 0.5mm. You don't want it too thick, otherwise you won't get it through the right end bearing cup of the spool.

I parted off the piece at 13.8mm total length, and then began skimming small amounts off.
Unfortunately I "overshot it"....







And had to make a shim to get the result I was after. I'm guessing if you can get your sleeve to 13.55mm total length, you are in the ball park. (For TLD 5 only)
The result I was after was to just feel slightest pressure when pushing on the bearings with the sleeve (and make up shim) in between the bearings. If you push the bearing from one end, and see the slightest movement of the bearing at the other end, the sleeve is still too long. If there is no movement when pushing, and can't feel your push through the opposite end bearing, it's too short, and you will have to put a shim in.
Its too much bother having to machine another sleeve from scratch. You can see in this pic the sleeve, make up shim and how "over length" the C-clip is.



A pic of the finished assembly....



BUT!!! it didn't end there! After all this, the Freespool was much better, BUT, when the spool is tilted to the right, it quickly came to a stop!!!!!



I noticed with the spool assembly complete, there was still movement of the spool shaft, relative to the spool. This really had me baffled, and  more than a touch annoyed (trying not to break the 12 year rule here!).

The problem lies with the spacing of these two shims under the ratchet holder cover plate. If there is too much of a gap between these two shims, and the cover plate, it negates any good the spool sleeve does, when the spool is tilted to the right. You have to place a shim here, to reduce the sideways play of the shaft to stop the drag washer (carbon or original) brushing every so slightly against the metal drag plate, due to the possible movement of the entire spool along the shaft.



What I ended up doing was started with a shim of 0.15mm thickness and made it to size to match the two copper shims. At full thickness it binds the spool to the shaft when the ratchet cover is screwed in place.
So I carefully honed the shim down on some 400grit wet/dry lubed with oil.  After several hone/test fits it started to loosen up. So I went just a little further until the spool spun freely. Get it really spinning, VIOLA!! No more slowing down when tilting the spool to the right.
Put entire spool assembly back into the rest of the reel. No change. Problem solved!! This reel now has tighter tolerances that an Accurate Twin Disc! (not really).

Conclusion- tighten up the clearance under the ratchet cover, and the "tilting to the right" problem will go away. I suspect this would work for all TLD's.
As for the sleeve, for what I gained from it in Freespool? If Freespool is an issue for you, maybe it's worth the effort. Personally,  I don't think so. Clean the bearings, lube with a super lube of choice, and forget about the sleeve.

Sorry for the long post.....

[Smols]

Rothmar2,

thanks for the detailed post on this bearing shaft project for your tld5. I have a tld15 that has the issue of losing freespool when tilted to the right. I tried to manufacture a bearing sleeve out of some aluminum tubing I had lying around (it was a crude attempt at best, certainly compared to your machine work!). I have a couple of questions for you. my tubing is slightly larger in id than the shaft, but still rests against the inside bearing race - do you think that is a problem? ultimately, I think I was somehow able to eliminate some of the slowing when tilting to the right issue (although its not perfect); however, i'm not sure i actually accomplished anything. if my bearing shaft is too short - or if i use the reel without the c clip - am i at risk of bearing failure issues?

[Rothmar2]

Hi Smols,

Thanks for your interest in this thread. The only issue I can see with the larger ID of your ally spacer would be that the piece MAY rub against the spool bearing shield if it gets too off centre or rub against the internal bore of the spool. Without seeing what you have come up with, limits anything else I could say at this point. You could try carefully putting a turn(s) of thin tape around the shaft to help centre the sleeve, and fit it snug.
Are you able to also try making a shim up to place with the others under the left end cover as I also showed.
You could try using a piece of Coke can , bend it down flat, and hone it down on a flat surface (eg. Piece of glass) with some wet/dry (say 4-600 grit). Drill the centre hole first. Shims are fiddly to make, but getting the left side shimmed correctly IMO has the biggest effect on the tilting problem of these reels. Feel free to ask any other questions.

[Smols]

Rothmar2,

Thanks for the reply, I am amazed by the wealth of knowledge amongst the participants on this site. I will try to wrap some tape around the shaft to snug up the bearing sleeve. As far as the shim goes, I do not see a picture of it in your original post, but I am assuming that you are basically making another washer that is placed on the shaft in addition to the two that are already there. I will see what I can come up with to accomplish the same thing. My question is: why, when I removed the c clip, was I able to entirely eliminate the spool stopping when tilting to the right? And... What is the harm in running the reel with no c clip - or a bearing sleeve that is too short? I assume that the bearings will be damaged at some point when the drag is increased and the side load is too much. Am I on the right track?

[Dominick]

No need to apologize for a lengthy post.  This thread is loaded with well explained steps.  Thanks for showing it step by step.  Dominick

[Rothmar2]

No problem Dominick, I'm glad that this thread has been raised from the dead. I was hoping a bit of discussion might be generated when I initially put this together, but it kind of slowly disappeared.....

Smols, I don't have the reel with me right now to look into it closely for you, so I will give you some clues from what I can currently remember. Bear in mind it's been 6 months since my initial post and I haven't opened the reel since then.
Firstly, the shim, yes it will be grouped with the two copper shims at the left end of the shaft, under the cover plate that contains the clicker sprocket. My bad, I seemed to have posted the wrong picture showing the extra (brass) shim I made.
With the bearings minus the C-clip, I would have to look again closely. Only issue I could see is the right spool bearing could "float" right to the base of the right end bore on the spool, and rub against it. I could be wrong though.The bearing is "spaced" by the brass sleeve that butts against the drag plate spring. I would really have to have the reel in front of me again to jog my memory. Maybe some-else could chime in, in the meantime.
 There was a thread in the Okuma section regarding the Metaloid series of reels. I believe they are a very similar design to these TLD's, and they also share this "tilting to the right problem".

Edit- here is the thread. There is a good explanation on how the drag thrust forces are transmitted through this assembly for these reels, if you read all the posts

http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=12929.0

[Smols]

Thanks for the link to the thread about the drag thrust forces on these reels. After reading Robert Janssen's last post in that thread, it appears that the c clip or bearing sleeve only serve the purpose of increasing free spool in these reels and have nothing to do with protecting the bearings from axial forces. In that case, since I somehow get more free spool without the c clip, it seems that I should remove it. Or, as Alan suggested, shim the bearing so that the clip is not mimicking a bearing sleeve that is too long. Does anyone know where I can get some of the shim washers to shim the right side spool bearing on the tld 15 reel? I assume I would be looking for washers the size of the spool bearing outer race. Is that something I might be able to find at a hardware store, or would they be thinner than anything I would be able to find there?

[Tiddlerbasher]

I manage to get all my shims from online radio control shops - You can usually get mixed packs in various thicknesses - the id is the one that matters not the od so much.