Frame project- new style- feedback please!

[jurelometer]

As some of you know, I have been playing with some frame kit projects.

If you want to see the new frame idea -just jump down to the photos of the (white) frames near the end.      Note that this style will work with a variety of reels, not just the ones I have prototyped so far.  


For those of you willing to slog through the gory details,  Here is the reasoning that led to this design.

The goal is to design a more corrosion resistant, lightweight frame for small to mid-size conventional reels that will be strong enough to handle gel-spun/specta lines with high drag settings.  

There are folks making some very nice aluminum replacement frames for the more popular reels, so no need to jump in there. Plus I am not a big fan of aluminum for reel parts where it is not needed.  Aluminum has it merits.  It does not creep, warp, absorb water, and is so strong (overkill really), that it can accommodate some pretty sketchy structural design.   But corrosion is a big problem.  

Having access to a bunch of fancy design software and prototyping gear ( but not necessarily a lot of expertise ) - I took a stab at this problem.

I first created a typical  star drag reel design  - something around a TLD Star 15/30 size with a one piece frame.    I did not bother with the classic foot and post design.

I next ran simulations with stress analysis software against this design.  I also tweaked the design to make the reel wider and taller on some simulations.  I eliminated the dogs and gears as a failure point.    The load travels from just below where the line meets the spool though the spindle, bearings, sideplate, fasteners, frame and finally to the reel seat.

1.When the load reaches the sideplate, it is applied against a cross section, the sideplate area is unaffected, probably even with Bakelite plates.   The stress is transferred to the frame via the fasteners, but a couple brass screws are plenty.   So replacement sideplates don't seem to add much functional value in these load based simulations.

2.  When the frame material is not metal, most of the deformation occurs right at the base of the reel.  This is where a typical graphite reel should fail according to the simulations.    This seems to match up with real world observations.

The longer the lever, the less force is required.   The tip of the lever is just behind where the line leaves the spool.  So taller (or fuller) and wider spools increase the leverage and decrease the amount of force required to blow out a frame at the base.    Wider spools will also concentrate the force more to one side of the base (when the line is at the edge of the spool).  

3.  Most star drag spool bearings sit at the very end of the spindle. If the reel is not torn off the foot, the next failure point is the spindle bending between the spool edge and the bearing.

4.  The software has the ability to change the various simulated materials quite easily. For the frame and sideplates, I tried 6061 T6 Aluminum, a variety a plastics, carbon fiber and even maple (wood). Aluminum worked with any design.  Once the design of the frame base was beefed up, all of the materials were strong enough to support loads beyond what the spindle could handle.
There are other considerations for material selection, such as thermal expansion, water absorption, creep, UV resistance, corrosion resistance, etc.  But in terms of tensile strength, stiffness, impact strength, and shear strength,  there are many options beyond aluminum.    

5.  The problem with existing frame designs in "graphite" (actually cast nylon with 20-30% finely chopped glass and carbon fibers) is that the base (where the load will eventually be transferred to) is actually the weakest part of the frame.   THe base of the frame is thin to keep the spool close to the rod and still have room to attach the foot.  In order to attach a metal foot you need four holes and some rivets. Accommodating a clamp also requites two more big holes or a slot, etc. The force is concentrated to some small thin areas.

Here are a couple examples.  A Penn 320 GT2:



And a Shimano TLD (10 or 15)




Note that the TLD gear pocket further weakens the base at a critical location.   The photos I found on the web of blown out TLD LRS frames  all show failure at the gear pocket in the frame.  

While perhaps a controversial approach, it seems that the best way strengthen the base of a plastic/composite frame is to get rid of the metal foot, and rely on an extended clamp (i.e. deckhand style).

This design should be (theoretically ) strong enough to allow the use of a variety of plastics and support loads up to 50 lbs (the spindles in my model fail around 30) for reels similar to the model.  It seems a nice way to beef up small to mid size reels, without the corrosion problems of aluminum.   As the reel gets larger, the frame has to get beefier,  to counteract the effects of plastic deformation from heat and water absorption affecting alignment.    It should still be possible on larger reels, but would require better engineering, material selection and more tightly controlled manufacturing. Maybe not too appealing visually.

So here is a prototype of this new frame style on a Newell 220. It could still be clamped over a reel seat, but ideally it would be mounted deckhand style. I am working on some ideas to improve the clamp, but this should give you an idea of the concept.




Here is a Penn 320 framekit -early prototype.  This one has the option of of a conventional foot, or a four screw clamp.




I was encouraged by several of you to look at the 320-  I do not think it is actually a good candidate for a replacement frame kit for a bunch of reasons,  but I wanted to show the optional foot or four screw clamp design.


Any feedback???

BTW -Not surprisingly,  the stock Newell stand is also quite beefy compared to contemporary graphite frame reels.  Having never fished with Newells,  I was not a big fan (looked too much like Russian military gear to me), but the more I get into reel design, the more I appreciate Mr Carl's work.

-J.

[Three se7ens]

Very nice work.  I like your thought process, and I think you are onto something here. 

[gstours]

Ya , boy howdy!!!!  thats waay better.  we got to remember the companys that make these reels are out for the masses dollar.   you and me are wanting more.  You could be in a specialty item market with no competition and make a  fair mark-up........ there is a movement of fisherpersons that want more than a stock ford,  honda or lexus!!!!!

[MFB]

Nice work, would be interested in a TLD15 one.

Rgds

Mark

[Tunacious]

Looks like a fascinating project! I'd be curious to see some testing results re frame integrity...especially interested in the Newells.

[Bryan Young]

Very interesting.

[thorhammer]

very nice engineereing analysis and FMEA about the stress points. have you tried to coat / paint this polymer yet? great work on a better mousetrap

[doradoben]

I like what you are doing. I have a bunch of deckhand rods with no reel seats and prefer them for 40 lb test or less with star drag reels. Spreading the load with a four screw clamp seems like a good idea. The Penn 320 frame, with the integrated side plate reminds me of a Pro Gear style frame. After viewing your Newell 220, my guess is that Carl Newell would probably approve. Your (Newell version) design applied to a Penn 501 would be lighter and more rigid than the multiple piece frame now in use. Thanks for posting your thoughts and photos.   

[fIsHsTiiCkS]

I'm in for a 320 frame

[jigmaster501]

You could make stainless reel seats that screw into the holes for the clamps (like the one you show for the 320) and make a frame with a reel seat. This is really nice work. I wonder since you are making 1 piece side plates and frames if you could make a 1 piece left side plate + frame for a jigmaster and then make a plastic side plate that takes the internals and make your own take apart design to make a highly corrosion resistant jigmaster.

Also, If you make your own stainless reel seats to screw in, you could put a metal eye on it to hold a jig.

Very good stuff.

[jurelometer]

Thanks for the encouragement folks.  More feedback please-  even negative - its all good!

Ya , boy howdy!!!!  thats waay better.  we got to remember the companys that make these reels are out for the masses dollar.   you and me are wanting more.  You could be in a specialty item market with no competition and make a  fair mark-up........ there is a movement of fisherpersons that want more than a stock ford,  honda or lexus!!!!!

Thanks Gary,


I agree it is probably a specialty item for folks that actually fish a lot and understand a bit how their gear works.  deckhand rods, vertical jigging, kayakers, etc.

very nice engineereing analysis and FMEA about the stress points. have you tried to coat / paint this polymer yet? great work on a better mousetrap

These are prototypes 3d printed in PLA  plastic - not good for actual use.   The stuff warps like crazy and degrades fast.  But it is easy to print.  

I would rather use a dyed/colored material- that way no finish to scratch.

I haven't selected materials or manufacturing methods yet.   The design will change to accommodate the selected method.   For example- if I go to molded parts, the wall thickness needs to be more uniform, and supplemented with ribs, more tapered edges...

Looks like a fascinating project! I'd be curious to see some testing results re frame integrity...especially interested in the Newells.

A  501 frame would also work on some Newells- correct?


And I only have one 220, so I don't want to blow it up-   Send me one of yours, and I will happily load it up until the gears fry and the dogs pop out

Seriously-  No sure how to live test.  Maybe lock down the drag on a suspended weight and check for deformation of a time period.

-J

[Tunacious]

Looks like a fascinating project! I'd be curious to see some testing results re frame integrity...especially interested in the Newells.

A shorty 500 frame would also work on some Newells- correct?


And I only have one 220, so I don't want to blow it up-   Send me one of yours, and I will happily load it up until the gears fry and the dogs pop out

Seriously-  No sure how to live test.  Maybe lock down the drag on a suspended weight and check for deformation of a time period.

-J


I'm not an engineer so I don't know how to best test them. You could always setup a rod and reel and attach the line to a car and have it go at a good speed, under drag pressure.
[/quote]

[Alto Mare]

Dave, i believe you are on the right track and hope that you will make it happen.
I have been so discouraged by graphite reels on conventional and spinners, that I will usually just walk away from them.
After reading your detailed explanation, you definitely made me think about it twice.
I'm not sure you've seen some of my comments circulating here around the forum, as you, I also don't like aluminum, too many issues to deal with.
Yes they look the best when anodized, but after some serious use they will start to show problems.
The problems are many, as chips/nick that could cut your line, stripped screws, lose bearings and the biggest problem of all, corrosion and so on.
Most manufacturers instead of dealing with the problem with Graphite cracking under stress in some cases, it appears they just dropped it and moved on to something easier to deal with.
Having the two choices, I went ahead and pushed Black Pearl into making us some stainless steel parts, yes they would be heavier, but as for strength and durability, I don't see anything at the moment out there that could beat it.

Dave, after numerous conversations with you and seeing what you could do, if anyone could pull this off... it's you.

Good luck to you!

Sal

[Newell Nut]

This is very interesting work. Keep us up to date as you progress. I fish a couple times a week offshore if you need to test the 220 but I don't have a deckhand rod or a cork puppy. A big red snapper on a 220 would be a great test with a 5 stack drag in it.

[Keta]

Good work!   

  A frame for Penn Baymaster 180 and Monofil 27 reels would be nice.