alan tani @ alantani.com fishing reel repair rebuild tutorial FREE FLOATING SPOOL vs THRU PINION SPOOL SHAFT
Reel Repair by Alan Tani
September 20, 2018, 09:58:43 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register  
Pages: [1]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: FREE FLOATING SPOOL vs THRU PINION SPOOL SHAFT  (Read 4861 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
LTM
Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 908


« on: June 15, 2015, 11:30:41 AM »

By free floating spool Im referring to spools that dont have a spool shaft that extends thru the pinion gear. Which of the two types has the mechanical strength advantage?

Leo
Logged
Bryan Young
Ultimate Upgrades Drags
Administrator
Member
*****
Online Online

Posts: 9703


The Reel Whisperer


« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2015, 12:05:25 PM »

In general, I would say free floating would have less likelihood of flexing of the spool shaft since the spool is supported close to the spool.
Logged

Cheesy I talk with every part I send out and each reel I repair so that they perform at the top of their game. Cheesy
Alto Mare
Moderator
Member
****
Online Online

Posts: 11433


Southeastern Pennsylvania


« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2015, 12:26:53 PM »

I believe a fixed spool shaft has more of a mechanical strength advantage...less flexing.
Logged

Forget about all the reasons why something may not work. You only need to find one good reason why it will.
johndtuttle
Sensei
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 1920


« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2015, 01:16:04 PM »

As I understand it Daiwa originated the floating pinion concept (Penn calls it "Live Spindle" or something) whereas Abu, Shimano and Okuma etc still use the longer spool shaft that is then supported all the way through to a pinion bearing.

Shimano maintains "X-Ship" allows greater cranking power due to the more rigid support of the pinion, Penn says the "Live Spindle" is better for casting and free spool.

Never heard one actual fisherman complain about one or the other, besides the fact that the live spindle type reels need pressure taken off of the spool to get out of gear and can chatter a bit if line is streaming off before they get in gear. But cast beautifully they do...Wink.

I doubt either one is markedly superior to the other in typical use.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2015, 03:53:52 PM by johndtuttle » Logged
LTM
Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 908


« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2015, 03:25:31 PM »

Thanx gents for your replies. Im wondering if any of you daily reel mechanics with business' repairing reels have come across issues with failures with the "free floating" spools. This could be determined with the appropriate CAD software to determine the amount of stress' on surrounding parts. Wish I still had access to some super computers.

Leo
Logged
Rivverrat
Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1631



« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2015, 06:37:43 PM »

Most issues I know of deal with the live spindle design & people not knowing how to use it properly. Ive thought about this before & I don't know that one is substantially stronger than the other.  First off as already alluded to it,s never an issue until abuse enters the picture.

However from a design standpoint in an  attempt to build the most streamlined, lightweight, durable reel one possibly could I'm thinking a live spindle type design would be of benefit....Jeff
« Last Edit: June 15, 2015, 07:22:25 PM by Rivverrat » Logged
exp2000
Sensei
Member
***
Online Online

Posts: 680


Broome Western_Australia


WWW
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2015, 03:51:12 AM »

An extended spindle passes through the pinion gear. Part of reel super tuning involves polishing the spindle shaft to reduce friction against the bore wall as it spins inside the pinion. The floating pinion is completely divorced from the spool during a cast so does not suffer from pinion bore friction. So any claims that an extended spindle provides superior casting is nonsense. A floating pinion spool design only has to contend with friction at two adjacent bearing points.

The floating pinion is rigidly supported at both ends by bearings so it has zero flex under load. Even in the best designs, an extended shaft pinion only has rigid support at the clutch end; the spindle providing general support.

Provided that the clutch end of the pinion is rigidly supported by a bearing, there is no great mechanical strength advantage of a fully floating pinion design. But if it is not, it means that the spindle is supported well above the pinion gear allowing much more flex under load: definitely a weaker design.

Recently, Shimano completely redesigned it's iconic low profile baitcaster - the Curado from the ground up since the market rebelled against the quality decline of the G series and they lost the sale. In upgrading the new design, it is significant that Shimano copied Daiwa's fully floating pinion concept.

« Last Edit: June 16, 2015, 04:08:50 AM by exp2000 » Logged
Slazmo
Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 145



« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2015, 04:51:25 AM »

Recently, Shimano completely redesigned it's iconic low profile baitcaster - the Curado from the ground up since the market rebelled against the quality decline of the G series and they lost the sale. In upgrading the new design, it is significant that Shimano copied Daiwa's fully floating pinion concept.

Since when lol?

Basically the internals are near exact as the G series including the spool shaft. Not sure why so many people harped on about the E series being so different from the G series when they perceivably are exactly the same when opened up and in the hand... There wasnt a great deal changed other than the green colour, the frame, the drag knob material and the perceived quality from Made in Japan to Made in Malaysia? I know that a lot of people that made comment here in Aus about the E to the G werent that clued up on the internally working structures and these people were influencing others in their mindset to call the G series rubbish.

And within regards to the fully floating pinion yes, its supported at both ends (Similar to Daiwa) however Shimano seem to have gone one further with a extra outboard bearing outside of the pinion outer to support the spools shaft centrally of the pinion that it passes through. Daiwa (some) spool shafts terminate at the pinion gear and a plastic friction post passes through the pinion which acts from the spool friction knob (picture attached below).

I have both the Chronarch E series and a Curado G series and they're near dollar for dollar parts wise the same other than dimensions.


* DSCF3737.JPG (241.29 KB, 1024x623 - viewed 382 times.)
« Last Edit: June 16, 2015, 11:30:22 PM by Slazmo » Logged
exp2000
Sensei
Member
***
Online Online

Posts: 680


Broome Western_Australia


WWW
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2015, 06:31:27 AM »

The G Spot:

This Tackletour review of the new I series reel provides the background on the dim market landscape for the G series which according to them cost Shimano the sale, prompting them to take a new direction.

http://www.tackletour.com/reviewshimanocuradoibaitcaster.html


The 200 E5 and E7 models were a nice piece of work and had significant internal differences to the G series. Just one example of a G series flaw which I truly decried: They abandoned the solid clutch plate design in the G series and substituted a flimsy replacement which was prone to distortion because of it's poor design. Fortunately they have rectified this in the I series.

The G series was not a total wreck but the manufacturing materials were inferior and they were certainly a step down from the iconic E5 and E7 models which attained legendary status in the angling community. I can understand why the Tackletour reviewer said that the bean counters ruled the day on this one, sacrificing quality whist trying to drop the price.

I have not had an I series across the bench yet but owners are claiming a big improvement so I am looking forward to checking one out. As coincidence would have it my next job is another G series Curado which I must attend to. I get quite a lot of Curados up here in Barra land so I have a reasonable appreciation of the differences. I have a couple of E series reels myself and there is no way I would ever swap them for a G series. According to some reviewers, such was the decline that the Chronarch became the defacto replacement for the previous E series Curado. I guess this explains how they were able to drop the price.

Tackletour Minus Points highlight some structural differences:

- Not a step up from the previous generation version
- No titanium line guide
- Drag star no longer aluminum (on the plus side it is lighter and will not corrode)
- If you liked the ergonomics/refinement of the previous version you will need to ante up for a Chronarch E

Things I like on the G series:
The handle cap. I am forever replacing them on earlier series as they are weak and crack easily.
The handle bearings have been replaced by plastic bushes which are obviously far more durable and also far more practical IMO.
~
« Last Edit: June 16, 2015, 09:29:14 AM by exp2000 » Logged
Bryan Young
Ultimate Upgrades Drags
Administrator
Member
*****
Online Online

Posts: 9703


The Reel Whisperer


« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2015, 06:57:02 AM »

Note that there is a difference between free floating (such as the Penn's Baja Specials) versus through pinion (such as the Penn's historic line of Senators).  Note that there are a lot of reels out there that uses a combination of two (such as Penn's GT series reels, Daiwa Saltist, Shimano Trinidad reels to name a few).

My preference is to support the spool as close to the spool as possible for reduced flex in the spool.  

With that said, one of my favorite light reels is Abu's 6500C3.  It's a free floating spool where the spool floats on bearings on a non-fixed spool shaft.  This is similar to a live axel like lever drag reels.  These may not flex as much as they can heat treat the shafts of separately for added strength and rigidity, which will ultimately reduce spool flex.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2015, 07:00:13 AM by Bryan Young » Logged

Cheesy I talk with every part I send out and each reel I repair so that they perform at the top of their game. Cheesy
Slazmo
Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 145



« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2015, 12:03:28 AM »

The 200 E5 and E7 models were a nice piece of work and had significant internal differences to the G series. Just one example of a G series flaw which I truly decried: They abandoned the solid clutch plate design in the G series and substituted a flimsy replacement which was prone to distortion because of it's poor design. Fortunately they have rectified this in the I series.

Havent see that flaw as of yet, however this could be caused by individuals depressing the clutch bar towards the end of the button where its least supported. I myself havent seen that even in my G series either however I look after my reels, I have a Calcutta 50B and other smaller shimano baitcasters and they being even lower a price point than the Curado like the Caenan or the Callisto of 2003 circa didnt have any issues with the cluch mech plate distortion?

The G series was not a total wreck but the manufacturing materials were inferior and they were certainly a step down from the iconic E5 and E7 models which attained legendary status in the angling community. I can understand why the Tackletour reviewer said that the bean counters ruled the day on this one, sacrificing quality whist trying to drop the price.

Agreed I think that a lot and I mean a lot of people were swayed away from the G series from all the bad press that they received from these so called experts. Lots of reviews are made by those that are usually writing for a reason, some notoriety or some that are brand orientated or even those that may have had a bad 'lemon' product. Cant say that one reel will depict the whole batch or even a handful out of hundreds or even thousands that would have been made.

With my G series Curado I did notice in the schematics that the backup AR Dog and Post was omitted both in the AUDM and USDM schematics so I got onto Shimano AUS and they posted out a E series Curado frame and AR Dog & Post. If anyone needs a brand new Curado 200E frame Wink

Within regards to the Chronarch 201E I have, that has a plastic (graphite) side plate, a plastic drag star and perceivably the same thickness clutch mech plate. Possibly the Jap stainless clutch mech plates are tempered or higher quality stainless steel. Will have to test the magnetism next time they're both apart.

I have not had an I series across the bench yet but owners are claiming a big improvement so I am looking forward to checking one out. As coincidence would have it my next job is another G series Curado which I must attend to. I get quite a lot of Curados up here in Barra land so I have a reasonable appreciation of the differences. I have a couple of E series reels myself and there is no way I would ever swap them for a G series. According to some reviewers, such was the decline that the Chronarch became the defacto replacement for the previous E series Curado. I guess this explains how they were able to drop the price.

Yeh the new Chronarch Ci4+ and the Metanium are far different / ahead body wise within regards to design, quiet radical really, LH side spool friction redesign change and a few other tid bits. However the guts remain the same or near enough...

Tackletour Minus Points highlight some structural differences:

- Not a step up from the previous generation version
A: If it aint broke - why fix it?
- No titanium line guide
A: Ti Nitride coating? Never seen that on previous models so why is it needed?
- Drag star no longer aluminum (on the plus side it is lighter and will not corrode)
A: Plus is a plus - doesnt need to be made from Aluminium anyhow?
- If you liked the ergonomics/refinement of the previous version you will need to ante up for a Chronarch E
A: The E series is a larger frame from what I can gauge to the G series...

Things I like on the G series:
The handle cap. I am forever replacing them on earlier series as they are weak and crack easily.
The handle bearings have been replaced by plastic bushes which are obviously far more durable and also far more practical IMO.

Tell me about the handle nut caps cracking. I am just resorting to using a tiny amount of locktite blue and not overdoing the screw's... And within regards to the bushes in the handles, yeh I agree with the longevity however using bearings and filling them full of 2-4-C works well for longevity also. Not sure how people bust out so many bearings in their handles?

Andrew

P.s. some pictures of the Metanium and the current Chronarch Ci4+ (nevermind the rice in that pic Wink ) below and the last being my Chronarch 201E


* Metanium XG.JPG (471.93 KB, 959x768 - viewed 871 times.)

* Chronarch Ci4+.JPG (520.33 KB, 1024x745 - viewed 528 times.)

* Chronarch 201E.JPG (500.52 KB, 985x768 - viewed 561 times.)

* Curado G Series.jpg (103.02 KB, 676x484 - viewed 952 times.)
« Last Edit: June 18, 2015, 02:11:12 AM by Slazmo » Logged
exp2000
Sensei
Member
***
Online Online

Posts: 680


Broome Western_Australia


WWW
« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2015, 07:10:38 AM »


It's pretty rare that a reels reputation is so universally low that it engenders posts such as this:

"Why does everyone hate the g series Curado"

http://2coolfishing.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1230977

Quote
4. I quit using Shimano because of this next point kinda p!$$ed me off... they took the previous model Citca and called it a Curado G, Took the Curado E and called it a Chronarch E. And lowered the price by like $10. "to better market the reels at a price point" In my eyes they were screwing over the customer

Quote
From servicing the reels the main changes I have seen was a change in metals on the driver shaft and the worm gear. In particular the drive shaft where problems often occur. This was done to reduce weight and is why you can take a 200E and feel the difference in weight vs. the 200G. I think the metal was changed to aluminum with is lighter and softer.....And it does seem true that the old Curado 200E became the Chronarch 200E with the price increase for the name - internally the reels look identical. I think Shimano took the earned beat down for producing the 200G as a Curado.


Quote
X2 on this plus few more pointers.
5. Why buy Curado G when U can get Curado E for same price or much less?
6. Shimano realizes their screwed-up and they had to put out the Curado I and Chronarch Ci4 reels quickly before they lose more market share (they already lost a big chunk in 2012 because of Curado G and Chronarch E series) to the competitors.
FYI, I'm a hardcore Shimano user/collector and I refuse to own any Curado G or Citica G series.



The following comments are from my own reviews on the G series since it was first released. They align well with the criticisms from the above thread.

Quote
But what about the internals? The big difference I could see was in the clutch release bar. They have abandoned the well-engineered flange design for a single pivot resulting in reduced lateral stability and it seemed to show at the thumb bar being slightly cocked at an angle.

Note: Now nearly every G series reel I have serviced has exhibited the same cocked clutch bar including the one I serviced last night. There are no mysteries here. It's Pi$$ weak and no unusual effort is required to bend it. It's that simple.

Quote
The other big difference was in the "metal" for want of a better word, used for the crank shaft and the worm drive alike.

This metal was extremely light and doubtless resulted in reduced weight. Time has revealed that it is not the same robust stuff of previous generations.

Quote
Just got one in for a service and the threads on the crankshaft were stripped badly on the lower section................. Looks like brass trumps this "metal".

I also wonder if the bearings aren't the same cheaper ones borrowed from the Citica to reduce cost.

Now why would you opt for a reel with a Pi$$ weak clutch bar and weaker primary components and was an overall step backwards on it’s predecessor? Of course you wouldn't. Successive generations are expected to yield improvements not downgrades and this is why the market walked. There is no conspiracy here - just simple facts: They took an icon and desecrated it. They took the previous model Citca and called it a Curado G.

Given these comparative weaknesses, I can only construe any defence of the G series as engendered by misplaced owner loyalty and it is at this point that I sign off on this discussion as I anticipate any further discourse as likely unproductive.

PS I hope it acceptable to the mods to reference other forums.
~





« Last Edit: June 17, 2015, 10:24:09 AM by exp2000 » Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines
Simple Audio Video Embedder
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.198 seconds with 16 queries.