Penn torque 300 LD drag problem.....defect/ design flaw maybe

Started by chuuchh, September 23, 2015, 06:07:03 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

chuuchh

Hi all, my first post

Chad here, from Trinidad in the caribbean. I happily own and run a custom rod building and repair shop as well as service reels for all my fellow fishermen on my island. So of course I am a huge fan of Alan Tani and his website/forum, Its superb to say the least. A huge thanks to alan for all his work and sharing the knowledge and to everyone else/fellow fishermen around the world who add to the site.

Anyway lets get to it. I recently got a penn torque 300 LD from a customer. He has 3 of them and all have the same problem. When hooked up to a fish he's fighting as normal, then all of a sudden the drag lets go basically to the point of birdsnest making a racheting grinding sound before catching back. Sometimes he catches the fish sometimes losing it but due to this problem he has basically retired the reels after sending them back to penn TWICE to fix the problem only to have them come back and do the same thing all over again. These reels were not cheap and he's super annoyed and not doesnt buy penn anymore.

He basically gave me one to see if I could check it out for him and see what I could do and I have to say for the first time I am stumped. How do I fix this I don't know so maybe you guys can help. Looks like a lemon to me. Please read on and view pics, I will try explain as best I could.


Here you can see I already have one side of the reel off and I am removing the spool. Attached to the spool (gray part) I am calling the drag cartridge.


Just another picture showing the reel frame and model of the reel


Another picture showing the "drag cartridge coming away from the spool


Here the 'drag cartridge is off the spool. you can see a little drag washer of carbon material on the outside of the cartridge and also see the teeth on both the spool and drag cartridge that suppose to mesh together and essentially lock the cartridge and spool together. you can also see the rubbing marks on the spool from the cartridge. THIS seems to be the point of slipping and failure.
A picture of the spool, you can see rubbing marks on the spool and if you look closely enough the flathead screws, plate, and teeth all show signs of friction/grinding/rubbing away.
The top of the 'drag cartridge' the teeth are worn and the screws and outside "ring" where the drag washer is all show signs of wear.

Here you can see the opened 'drag cartridge' and the massive drag washers inside. Clearly this is where the drag is suppose to come from and why these reels are rated for high amounts of drag. If only it worked.

Close up the drag cartridge. you could see how clean the massive drag washers look.

Last pic showing the entire setup.

So this is what I have gathered. Under decent drag the top of the drag cartridge is suppose to essentially mate and "lock" with the spool by means of the teeth and the reel gets its drag from the washers inside the cartridge. But it seems that the force of the big drag washers inside the cartridge are overpowering the holding force of the teeth and little washer on the outside and then clearly the teeth and little drag washer cannot apply much drag to the spool and it gives out causing basically a freespool to take place.

As I said before the owner has sent the 3 reels to penn TWICE already and has gotten them back with the same problem. Looking at the designed myself I am lost. Even to buy new teeth parts for both the spool and what I am calling the drag cartidge, I just dont see the problem being fixed, under heavy drag the teeth may just give out again. This reel was rated at 40lbs of drag by penn. Keep in mine these reels are like in new condition and rarely used. After a couple wahoo this happened, fishing about 15lbs of drag. I even went as far as to mention to the owner it doesnt look good, they look like lemons, and penn should give him new reels. Design does not look good to me but I could be missing something.
But I told him to hang on a bit, I could be wrong and to let me see what the rest of the reel guru's out there in the world have to say. Told him I know just the place to ask and find out, right here!

Has anyone else has this problem with their torque's of this model?
So check it out guys and let me know. Hoping for some good news from you reel guru's.

thanks
Chad

Tightlines667

#1
This type of failure is a bit disturbing to see on a reel of this caliber.  I have never worked on these padticular reels, but might provide a little advice (to be taken with a grain of salt).

First off I agree it looks like you have a failure in the teeth on the Drive Retainer (128C-$18.75), Drive Plate (128B-$14.35), and Driver (128A-$1.90) itself.  

I might suspect that the outer drive plate failed first or possibly in concert with the Driver, and the the Inner Drive retainer quickly followed suite.  I am basing this soly on my interpretation of the photos and function of the parts, given the appearance of the broken tooth on the outter plate, and the uneven wear present on the Driver itself.

It looks to me that in order to function as designed a few things need to take place.  The spacing along the length of the spool shaft needs to be correct (shimming may be needed as wear develops).  The Bellevilles need to be configured correctly and retain (or nearly so) their stock springiness.  The Drive clutch spring needs to remain clean (as does the lip of the driver) and springy enough to ensure that the driver engages properly with both inner and outer ratchets (in effect marrying the Drag Bushing Assembly to the spool when under load).  The dogs (on the drag housing) also need to engage with the left side plate).  Off course, the cam configuration must be correct as well.  

To me, it is tough to determine (from examining the failure alone) to determine if you have a failure due to manufacture defect) or something that was partly or wholly induced by the operator.  However, I would have expected Penn to treat this as the former, and immediately replace the reel free of charge.

If I had the reel in my possession for service, I would break the entire reel down and look for other clues or signs of wear.  I.e. check all bearings for roughness after a through cleaning (a worn pinion in this short of a use interval would immediately suggest that the reel has likely been fished beyond specs for instance).  Decreased Belleville stack height from stock would suggest improper spool shaft spacing.  Wear marks on the inside of the left side plate night suggest the need for a shim here..etc.  Worn gears, especially uneven wear, or any appreciable play in the drive shaft might suggest missalignment of the drive train, possibly requiring replaced worn parts, or shimming under the gear set.  BTW, I Scott's lists the max drag of this reel at 32lbs, not 40.
I can imagine that quickly throwing the reel into max drag from freespool while line is being paid out rapidly (remember small spools spin faster per " of line) might cause the outter drive plate to grab the driver suddenly and lead to failure.  Then the resulting damage to the outter portion of the driver will make it more likely to damage the inner drive retainer more easily due to improper engagement.  I can not imagine how any of these failures would occur if the spool was stationary at the time the drag was engaged even if there was a sudden rapid surge exceeding manufacture specs.  

Regardless, if the reel will function better and incur less wear when fished in this manner, it should still be built to a level that allows for some level of abuse beyond factory specs, and we all know that when live bait fishing or dropping a bait back in freespool, the drag may be engaged when the spool is spinning rapidly, and the angler desires a predetermined strike force to drive the hook home.  It should be able to handle this.

This leads me to question the characteristics and manufacturing processes involved in producing the 3 parts that failed.  As well as the tolerances between these parts when engaged.  Obviously they need to have some play to allow them to work whether hot or cold, but they should engage smartly, and positively when stock.  Maybe there is or was a defect in materials or resulting from the manufacturing  process?

I would do a full service on the reels, replace all worn parts, shim as needed, inform Penn of the circumstances surrounding the failure(s), and put the reel back into service to see if their is another similar failure.  I might also question the owner to see where he had the preset, and lever, and what exactly he did when the reel failed.  I would also measure the drag curve at those swttings, and estimated spool fullness.  

The other thing to consider is that spectra enherently has little to no stretch, and can make for much more abrupt/jarring forces under certain conditions.  These peak forces occurring when things are not fully engaged can lead to failure.

I hope you are able to sort this one out.  More importantly, I hope Penn takes notice of this documented failure, and takes steps to prevent current or future recurrences.  May just be a bad part or 2.  Honestly, overall I have been very impressed with this reel's design, on paper.  I hope it can live up to the expectations on the real world.  This is the first failure of this series I have heard about to date, and I am sure there are thousands of these reels in use today.  I hope it is an isolated incident.

Thanks for sharing, and please keep us posted on the progress on this one.  I am sure many will be interested to learn how this one turns out.  Hopefully John T can Chime in, and maybe someone with more experience servicing these models will offer up some additional guidance on the matter.

Best of luck!

*PS sorry for the long-winded post.
Hope springs eternal
for the consumate fishermen.

Robert Janssen

#2
I don't have one of these here either. Coincidentally I did meet the guy that designed them once, but that doesn't help.

Here... see pics

Besides that, I can only imagine that constantly throwing the drag into engagement against an already running fish (rotating spool) has simply worn the toothed parts down, that's all.

(which doesn't explain the scratches, scuffs and wear marks on the cassette / spool flange, but anyway)

.

luckybass

I have 3 of these reels and absolutely love them. Interested in the out come of this. Tightlines666, you are the man awesome info!
You are entitled to nothing.
Want it?
Earn it.

Dominick

I have the 300 in star drag which I use regularly on my Mexico trips which has worked flawlessly.  However I am interested in the outcome of this problem also.  Please keep us informed.  I expect that someone at Penn monitors this site on occasion.  Do we have a name of someone at Penn to offer an opinion?  Dominick
Leave the gun.  Take the cannolis.

There are two things I don't like about fishing.  Getting up early in the morning and boats.  The rest of it is fun.

joel8080

I haveTRQ200 star drag and it's my go to reel, I just took it apart and to my surprise I found the top of the spool for about 2-2 1/2 inches it's rubbing against the frame, I have since taken it apart 2 more times and I can not figure out or why it's rubbing in such a small area, I took it apart just before the SOA trip and there was no rubbing. and the frame shows no sign of rubbing at all.
Any Ideas?????????????.

Joel 8080
Oceanside,California

thorhammer

Firstly, regrettably I don't own a Torque, never serviced one, and so have nothing whatsoever to aid in remediating the situation.

However,

Secondly, actually most importantly: Chad is my hero for running a fishing service in the Carribean. Hat's off, dude!

Third: Tightlines with a reel deal assessment....very well done.

J

jurelometer

A couple  observations:  According to Pennparts, the single speed torques were introduced in 2006 and discontinued in 2010.    The two speed torques that came out after the single speeds have a more traditional drag mechanism without the components that are failing.  Specifically, they went away from the design that had multiple drag washers to a single washer without decreasing the supported max drag.   Hmmm.  Your customer may want to consider asking for a replacement reel designed without the failing components, such as the two speed version of the torque.

I haven't seen the inside of one of these reels, so take this with more than a  grain of salt:   I think Tightlines' (detailed= good!!! )  reply is on the right track. It looks like the springs  (parts 41 and 41a) are involved in holding the driver and retainer in position to properly engage. 

So only if the above is correct:

1.  It shouldn't take much to shred the teeth under load once the springs are weakened. It would also explain why the reel could fail and recover intermittently. 

2.  Is it possible that storing the reels with the lever engaged might weaken the springs, especially for customers that store the reel for a long time between uses?   The springs don't look very burly, and the coils are not close, implying a need for a decent amount of travel. 

The fact that your customer has three failed reels and the internet is not littered with failure reports on the Torque single speed LDs (albeit Penn may not have sold many)  implies that a specific usage pattern might be considered. BTW:  this might still be something that the manufacturer should have to deal with and not completely operator error.


Are  these teeth always supposed to be engaged,  or  are they separated when in free spool  (i.e. the drag bushing  -86a- does not turn with the spool in free spool)? 

Joe8080:

Not much in common internally  between the lever and star Torques-  you might have more luck and less confusion if you post your question in a new separate thread.

chuuchh

Guys thanks for all the great replies, good reading and exactly why I posted this here. top notch stuff!

the reel was mostly used 90% for trolling, and trolling with rigger ballyhoo and artificials for wahoo, king mackerel and mahi's an whatever else bites, blackfin tunas and sailfish. Meaning slack it, set the drag, 9-12lbs at strike and leave it in the rod holder for a bite. The other 10% was for bottom fishing and jigging, same thing slack it down, drag lever up and work it/wait for a bite before striking/setting the hook. Just so everyone has a better understanding of how it was used. reel is spooled with 40lb mono btw and backed with braid.

I took everything into consideration replied here and spoke to the owner about repairing the reel, since we would have to buy the necessary parts, he's not for it at all. haha, and I dont blame him. He said he's sent it back to penn twice (shipped from trinidad and back) and it came back with the mentioned parts changed, driver, driver retainer, drive plate etc and still failed after 3 fish, he doesnt see the problem going away. He sees a 3 fish fix before losing the 4th and to be honest I might agree with him. we just don't see how the little teeth on the driver (part 128A) and drive retainer (part 128C) could possibly hold back the drag force that those sizeable drag washers could put out, especially since that spring (part 41A) is behind the driver keeping it engaged with the drive retainer. Not to mention the little drag washer on the drag bushing assembly (part 86A) looks as though it is suppose to help hold the assembly to the spool with the teeth and all work together.

To answer your question jurelometer I believe the teeth are not suppose to always be engaged. I think it was designed this way for superior freespool. If I imagine it in my head, upon sliding the drag lever up the little carbon washer on the assembly begins to touch the spool slowing the spool to a stop before the teeth slide into place locking the spool to the drag housing. As you can see that little drag washer has worn itself too low causing the metal on the drag bushing assembly to touch the spool, and those 2 smooth metal surfaces touching equals no holding force, so then just the teeth on the driver and drive retainer are left to do the work, and as Robert said the teeth start to do the slowing before locking into place wearing them down. Theres just so many things working together to keep this reel working correctly, as discussed in those great replies. All ways for failure. This reel is just over complicated. HaHa

To attempt a repair.....for the 3rd time, we're looking at changing parts 41A $6.50, 86A $51.30 (since according to the schematic you cannot buy just the carbon fiber drag washer attached to the assembly), 128A $1.90, 128B $14.35, 128C $18.75, and eight 101 $0.85 each (just to change all the parts in that conflict region to do it properly since the screws are banged up).

Sooo basically $100 in parts to attempt a fix on a reel that cost $$$$$$$$$$$$.......mad expensive...more than talica's and makaira's and other super great reels that have "more traditional drag mechanisms" as said by jurelometer. And then times three too for the 3 torques he has,$300...... Would it be a garanteed fix? I couldn't tell him yes. Wouldn't that little carbon washer on the assembly wear down again and teeth wear again and this happen all over again? I am thinking yes. He says paper weight em. When you open each of the 3 reels the problem is the exact same, all look identical inside, damaged teeth etc. I am going to speak with him again tomorrow, maybe we'll box one up and send it to alan so he can see it in his hands the problem, and then maybe advise if its worth a repair attempt. Hopefully someone from penn will see this and take back the 3 reels and give us something else in the price range of these.

But besides all this its been great to share the problem on this website. I also had problems with shimano saragosa's that I thought was also a design flaw (the drive gear) but new models are out now (the saragosa sw) so maybe that is past its time and will be left in the past.

Thanks for your comment thorhammer about running my fishing gear service. I guess we all try as much as possible to revolve what we do for work around what we really love to do, which is be on the water/go fishing!! Anyone wanting to can follow me on the gram @chadchuch where I try to share my catches and adventures as much as possible.

Thanks for the replies everyone else, will update as it happens.

Robert Janssen

Well, again, it seems the problem is really twofold, but can be fixed or improved.

As previously hinted at, I am not convinced that the metal surfaces of the star-hole discs and screws are flush with / countersunk to their surroundings, and / or the outermost CF friction ring is simply not thick enough.

The CF ring not being thick enough can easily be remedied by bonding another thin ring atop the old one. Carbontex can for example be had in a thickness of 0.5 mm; that oughta do it, and be affordable in terms of space. And further, since this friction surface is not part of the actual drag, it really doesn't need to be CF.... any of a wide range of materials would work. Felt, canvas, denim, nylon... whatever.

The non-flush surfaces can easily be remedied by a quick spin on a lathe, with a light skim cut across the face.

This is what the engaging components looked like to begin with. This pic is probably of a prototype or beta test reel; i guess things were changed somewhere further down the line in order to simplify production. Whether this was better or not, well... that is a different discussion. It only shows that the mating components do not need to look the way they do now. Really, they could be of essentially any polygonal shape.

For those so inclined or equipped, making a new set of conjugate components is not impossible, or entirely difficult. On the other hand, the worn components were for the most part not terribly expensive @ MysticParts.

PS: As a late and lucky coincidence (really, i mean it!), i just happened to notice that there are drive components on ebay, cheap:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-PENN-CONVENTIONAL-REEL-PART-128A-300LD-Torque-300LD-Driver-/351345549792


"Edited as per Moderators to correct Scott's Bait & Tackle over to their new store name Mystic Reel Parts / www.mysticparts.com"


jurelometer

Thanks for the description Chad.  I thought this was what they were doing. Looking at the photos, I was thinking that the outermost friction ring is not there to help synchronize the engagement, but simply to provide a flat surface to spin on while the engagement was happening.  Either way, I agree with your assessment on  this drag design approach.

A I see it, one of the key advantages of a lever drag system over star drags is that it can use a simple design to eliminate a key point of failure and complexity. One  drag surface is permanently connected to the spool, and the other to the pinion.  The spool to pinion connection is only the drag surface.  This design was not used  in the single speed torque in order to provide other features.

For the torque single speed to work well, the drag design must be more complicated and tolerances must be more exact.

Looking back more closely at  Tightlines  post, I think he nailed it.   I am just placing  a bit more emphasis on the springs.  It looks like  spring tension is required to keep these parts engaged.  There will always be one point that engages first.  If the driver and/or retainer gets pushed in, the teeth will be  angled out of  alignment, leading to the parts being pushed apart under load.   This is more consistent with he problem being intermittent.  If the teeth were simply shredding under load, it would be more likely to fail catastrophically.  So I go back to the point that storing this reel with the spring tension relieved, and replacing the springs as part of any fix.

Sending you a PM...