Curado 70XG and wet bearings

[0119]

The spinning reel on the fly rod could cast the smaller jig 24 yards.  Still less than I had hoped for.  

It appears that the rod, line, and leader are the limiting factors and both the Spinfisher 716Z and Curado 70 are probably capable of more.  I can try a smaller and slicker line, but have run out of ideas for a better rod blank to cast light jigs.
-steve

I think the "limiting factor"  of your spinning combo is the reel.  Ancient design not designed for the type of line you're using.  Never known as a long distance caster.  I've had good luck using fly rod blanks for both spinning and ultra light casting rigs but I don't go below 5 weight.  The classic Daiwa SS or modern Daiwa spinning reels spool design would increase your light lure distance performance.

[oc1]

Thank you very much Chad.  I did not know the thing about dividing by 16 and was just guessing that lighter would be better.  Should have asked first because now there is a dilemma about whether or not to spend more money on another blank.

The guide placement may have compromised the spinner.  The stripper is closer to the reel than is normal for a spinner because there is so much bend in the butt that the line would rub on the blank when it is turned over for baitcasting, even with the extra height.  The stripper is about half the diameter of the spool but I don't know if that rule of thumb is valid when the spacing is only 24 inches.

I originally wrapped this rod with eight BYAG to reduce weight but they tangled terribly if there was the slightest twitch with loose line.  So, I started over using two BYAG and eight KWAG.  I used to use KTAGs on everything but was plagued by wind knots and KWAGs resolved a lot of that.  The double foot lets the line slide off the guide frame but it is definitely heavier and stiffer. 

Wind knots are a real nuisance in a one-man outrigger canoe.  You have to use a long rod so it can get around the bow and stern when a fish is circling the boat.  Long whippy rods are prone to wind knots but there is no way to put your hands on the tip to untangle without taking the rod apart at the ferrule.  If you're snagged on the bottom and being pushed by the wind when the guides tangle it can get intense.

I should have mentioned that the 11 foot steelhead blank will throw a 1/4 ounce jig much farther than the 9 foot fly blank.  I didn't measure it but the difference is more than five yards.  I suspect the difference has more to do with rod action and/or rod power than rod length, but really don't know.  It's just that my 11 foot rod will not load with less than 1/4 ounce, even though St.Croix rates it 1/16 to 3/8 ounce lure.

0119, thank you very much for the advice about spinning reels.  The only spinning reels left around here are 716Z, 712Z and green 710.  Spinners give me the carpal tunnel thing in my wrist so I seldom use them now.  Baitcasting is much more comfortable but I don't want to sacrifice any distance either.

This whole thing needs a lot more tweeking.  The 1/8 ounce jig makes a really nice presentation and is less likely to become snagged when bumping it over coral rubble and rocks.  But, I can't cover much territory with a 24 yard cast.  The regression of jig weight plotted against casting distance for 3/4, 1/2, 3/8 and 1/4 ounce led me to believe that 1/8 ounce should give about 30 yards.
-steve

[oc1]

I'm so stupid.  Forget what I said about jig weight plotted against casting distance.



I had distance measurements for 3/4, 1/2, 3/8 and 1/4 ounce jigs (the red dots on the plot) and they made a rough line that looked like 1/8 ounce would fall at or above 30 yards.  There is some of slop in the data points because each point was with a different rod.

Then I realized that when the weight is zero, the casting distance must also be zero.  When the zero intersect is included as a data point, the line becomes a curve.  Its exponential instead of linear.  Having a 1/8 ounce jig cast 24 yards did not fit the straight line, but it does fit the curve.  Maybe that's all I'm going to get.
-steve

[cbar45]

Steve,

On the 716-Z have you considered swapping out the 20lb. Power Pro for 14lb. Berkley Fireline? (similar breaking strength)

I've noted Fireline to be more forgiving than braid when it comes to line-lay and wind knots on the older reels.

You could also purchase a Shimano Sienna 1000-FD (front-drag) for the same coin you'd spend on a 300 yd. spool of Fireline.

Yes, the Sienna 1000-FD is a budget reel--but durable--and works great with braid; its "propulsion" spool lip design also aids in distance.

Either one of those changes would likely let you eke out a few more yards--without having to buy a new blank etc.

Just some thoughts.

Chad

[cbar45]

The guide placement may have compromised the spinner.  The stripper is closer to the reel than is normal for a spinner because there is so much bend in the butt that the line would rub on the blank when it is turned over for baitcasting, even with the extra height.  The stripper is about half the diameter of the spool but I don't know if that rule of thumb is valid when the spacing is only 24 inches.

Sounds like you are using an NGC layout for your reduction guides; having the stripper closer to the reel than what the layout would indicate does "choke" the line a bit as it comes off the spool, but more so with mono than with braid. Another option for these types of light fly-rods paired with spinners and braid is to use Match-style guides. Match frames are so much higher than even BYAG's, one can actually drop down a ring size without sacrificing distance.

What really stands out for me is the fact you've mentioned the blank to bend excessively into the butt section. Such feature is a common trait of fly-blanks that are rated "fast" action--but only for the given length of fly line necessary to load and cast them. Any more load than that and the flex starts transitioning parabolically downwards. This is why you can have identically-rated blanks from different manufacturers, yet one will load beautifully with a certain length of fly line, while the other will start to feel flimsy and over-powered. True fast-action fly blanks will limit the amount of bend going into the butt section as the load increases.

Wind knots are a real nuisance in a one-man outrigger canoe.  You have to use a long rod so it can get around the bow and stern when a fish is circling the boat.  Long whippy rods are prone to wind knots but there is no way to put your hands on the tip to untangle without taking the rod apart at the ferrule.  If you're snagged on the bottom and being pushed by the wind when the guides tangle it can get intense.

Thanks for sharing this info on the manner you're fishing--it does sound challenging!

I should have mentioned that the 11 foot steelhead blank will throw a 1/4 ounce jig much farther than the 9 foot fly blank.  I didn't measure it but the difference is more than five yards.  I suspect the difference has more to do with rod action and/or rod power than rod length, but really don't know.  It's just that my 11 foot rod will not load with less than 1/4 ounce, even though St.Croix rates it 1/16 to 3/8 ounce lure.

Yes. All things being equal--a fast-action rod with a crisp, responsive, tip will generally throw the same lure farther than a rod that is softer and has a slower action. Factory ratings can definitely be inaccurate as to the blank's sweet spot--or range--where it performs the best.

Hope this helps.

[oc1]

Thank you again Chad.  I may try all those things.  The Fireline is more slick and springy, right??  There is also a partial spool of 10# PowerPro Slick and 12# Berkley Vanish around here somewhere.  

You would know this.  Is there an easy way to tell if the stripper is too close to the reel or too small for a spinning reel ?  I have a larger BYAG stripper.  It looks like about a 30 ring size.

The butt section would not bend excessively unless fighting a fish.  By that time, the top third of the rod is a straight line pointing to the horizon.  The MHX description says fast action.  It feels pretty good when casting and not over-powered.  Then again, it's MHX and not a Loomis or something.
-steve

[cbar45]

The butt section would not bend excessively unless fighting a fish.  By that time, the top third of the rod is a straight line pointing to the horizon.  The MHX description says fast action.  It feels pretty good when casting and not over-powered.  Then again, it's MHX and not a Loomis or something.

That clarifies it. When you said there was so much bend that the line was rubbing--I got a mental picture of those old Ugly-Stick ad's..

The Fireline is more slick and springy, right??  There is also a partial spool of 10# PowerPro Slick and 12# Berkley Vanish around here somewhere.  

You would know this.  Is there an easy way to tell if the stripper is too close to the reel or too small for a spinning reel ?  I have a larger BYAG stripper.  It looks like about a 30 ring size.

Fireline is slightly more springy and less prone to wind-knots. It's also more abrasion resistant when you compare the two lines at similar diameters.

For stripper guide ring size--half the diameter of the spool as you mentioned is a good rule of thumb to start with. A higher frame would allow you to drop down a ring size if using braid. Try pointing the rod tip at your lure/sinker as you slowly reel it in and study how the line is spiraling through the stripper. It should gently brush the entire circumference of the ring. If the line is only partially brushing the guide ring--or not at all--then the ring size is too big.

When test-casting any rod I like to use a fluorescent line that is easily visible. The blank is pointed to the sky at a 45 degree angle after the cast, whereupon I immediately look to see how the line is flowing off the reel. In this way I find it easy to tell if the line is slapping the blank--stripper set too far out, or if there is excessive resistance as the line flows through the stripper--stripper set too close.

On spinning rods of the type you're building, I like to initially place the stripper 20" from top of the spool as a baseline. Then, after test casts and fine-tunings are complete, it gets re-located anywhere from around 18-26" from the top of the spool.

Hope this helps.

[oc1]

And again, many thanks for the help. 
Here's what I did:
tip top FOT-6-4   108.0"
KWAG-6J   105.0"
KWAG-6J   101.2"
KWAG-6J   96.6"
KWAG-6J   91.2"
KWAG-7J   85.0"
KWAG-8J   78.0"
KWAG-10J   70.2"
choker BYAG-10J   61.6"
BYAG-16J   52.2"
stripper BYAG-20J   42.0"
reel spool   17.0"
butt   0.0"
The axis of the 716Z pointed to a spot on the rod 45 inches from the spool.  I screwed up and it's not a perfect bulls eye pattern but it's sorta kinda close.

I've been putting the baitcasting strippers about 24" from the spool but that seemed like it was short for a spinning rod.  I couldn't find any good recommendations for that though.

I'll try looking at it while casting again and hope for better light.  I'm on the beach at low tide.  The jig is in the air for such a short period that it's hard to tell what's going on.  Holding the rod up like you say and looking at it against the sky should help.  Also, I need to start taping the guides and the reel on instead of wrapping.  That part is getting old.
-steve

[cbar45]

Layout looks pretty good--a hybrid between NGC and cone-of-flight.

I've had good luck using elastic sewing thread as temporary means for securing guides on these light rods.

Eight turns over the foot--secured fore and aft by a few half hitches--makes for a band of thread that is easy to adjust up or down the blank.

Tackle shops sell a similar product called "Mikes Magic Thread".

[oc1]

Got it now Chad.  My biggest problem was that I was not wearing reading glasses. Holding the rod up and making a little flip cast with the guide right in front of my face made all the difference.

The spirals of line coming off the 716Z would sort of billow and get larger as they approached the stripper.  The larger they became, the more they would slap the blank.  Changing the size 20, 16, 10 BYAG to 30, 20,16 helped and prevented the line from slapping the blank.  But, I could still throw an 1/8 ounce jig only 24 yards.  The spirals were still billowing up in front of the stripper though so I moved it up to 18 inches in front of the spool, repositioned everything and added another guide to the train.  This looked really good going through the guides but it was still only 24 yards.

So, a top shot of 30 yards of 10# Power Pro Slick with FG knot to eight foot of 12# Vanish leader was put on the reel.  This helped a little and the distance increased to about 25 yards.

I found a Shimano TX 2000 with a broken AR selector lever in a box of junk (where it belongs) and tried throwing that with 12# mono.  This came up really short; about 20 yards.  The 10# braid top shot and leader was moved to the TX 2000 and then it would cast 25 yards too.  Put the 10# top shot and leader on an old Bantam 100 with custom level wind guide and it would cast 25 yards.  Put the 10# top shot and leader on the Curado 70 and it would cast 25 yards.




I'm going to throw good money after bad and try one more inexpensive reel when it arrives in the mail.
-steve

[oc1]

The saga of the rod to throw 1/8 ounce was continued here:
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=17978.0

But back to the Curado 70 and wet bearing issue.  It has been five or six weeks of use with the fully ceramic spool bearings.  With El Nino breaking up there have been fewer fishable days but I can usually get two or three times per week with about two hours of casting each trip.  So, it must have been about two thousand casts with the full ceramic bearings fished dry without lubrication and they have been completely maintenance free.  They occasionally get wet and you can always tell because the noise changes (it becomes more muffled) an there is a reduction in casting distance.  When they get wet I turn the centrifugal brake knob on the tail plate exterior down 1.5 digits and the maximum casting distance is restored.  Then, as the bearing flings the water away the spool will speed up and start to overrun/backlash so the centrifugal break dial must be turned up again.

The drag had started to stutter and I was curious to see how much water was accumulating inside so I cracked open the crankcase.  There were water drops and droplets inside again but surprisingly (to me anyway) it was not any worse than the last time I opened it five weeks ago.  The drops still tasted hypersaline, but there were no signs of crystallization or corrosion.  The reel has a drain hole in the crankcase but I don't know if any water has been leaking out.  I don't know if it has reached some sort of steady state with respect water and salt concentration. Not wanting to mess up a good thing, the bearings were not touched, the drag washers were cleaned and re-greased, some of the water drops were mopped up with a paper towel, and it was put back together.

I'm pretty happy about how its going with fully ceramic bearings.  They are still very noisy, but they still cast great and no bearing maintenance has been required.  At $63 each, I thought fully ceramic bearings were a luxury item.  But, cleaning bearings can become a chore and time is money.  If I were paying myself minimum wage to clean and install bearings (no, I mean the old minimum wage) I would break even on the deal in a few more months (if they last that long).  Fishing has not been very good but I caught a few including a really nice one that almost stripped the reel on the first run.  There are no problems so far with the bearings holding up to the pressure.  We'll see how it goes.
-steve

Edited to get the bearing price correct.  They're even more expensive than I remembered.

[Jayce]

Great job on the reel analysis !

Like to ask the drag washer dimensions, planning to swap mine for carbontex

[oc1]

On top of the main gear the washer is 35 mm o.d. x 26 m i.d. x 1 mm thick.  The inside diameter is not critical on this one because the stainless steel domed keyed washer rides only on a small area.

Below the main gear the washer is 27 mm o.d. x 8 mm i.d. x 1 mm thick.  The outside diameter is not critical on this one.

I cut the washer above the main gear out of 1.2 mm thick carbontex.  When the star is backed off all the way, it only has to be rotated about 100 degrees before it starts compressing the drag washer.  I may switch the lower drag washer to 1.2 mm thick carbontex too.

Here is a shot of the finish peeling off the Curado 70XG.  There are tiny blisters in the black composite material that makes the silver stuff flake off.  I popped one of the blisters with a needle under magnification and there was fluid inside.  Water intrusion into the composite?  I've seen the same thing on other composite frame reels and do not consider it a big deal.  Just cosmetic.


Here is a cryptic photo of salt crystals that formed on top of Yamaha blue grease.  Some of the salt nodules are 2-3 mm in size.  There is no corrosion inside to I don't worry about them.  The weep hole (drain hole) on the head plate is on the forward end.  How many people store a rod and reel with the forward end pointed down?  The weep hole needs to be toward the rear so water can drip out.


The pinion bearing was getting a little stiff and crusty.  I had never removed it since installing the full ceramic spool bearings because the right side spool bearing has to be removed to get to the pinion bearing.  I cleaned the pinion bearing and ordered a orange seal ceramic hybrid bearing to replace it next time I have to crack open the reel.

The full ceramic bearings are still very noisy.  I thought I would get used to it but it's like living next to the freeway... you never get completely used to it.  Sometimes when it is very still and quiet out on the water I would like to be alone with my tinnitus.

Overall, I'm still very pleased with the reel though.  I would like to have two of them and there is nothing else like it in the market.  The price has dropped a few bucks since their release but I cannot afford another reel and another set of ceramic bearings right now.

-steve

[Jayce]

Hi bro need help on something

Did you encounter the line stacking on one side ?

Mine stacked on the right side.  Did 5 trials, all mounted on the rod with line running to all of the
Guides with medium tension while keeping it aligned to the line spooler.

I dismantled the levelwind assembly cleaning and checking for issues but its clear.
Stil stacking after reassembly.

Checked the schematics and i noticed it did not show the 2 washers on the right side of the worm gear.

Does yours have it also ?

Also, is there a washer between the plastic gear and bushing of the levelwind ?

[oc1]

I would have to look again to be sure, but think there is a little washer between the worm and the 'E' clip on the left side and a plastic bushing between the worm and the gear on the right side.

I had trouble with line stacking on one side.  But, the problem was the composite spacers (wear plates) that the end of the spool shaft contacts.  It is what the spool shaft touches in the tail plate and the cast control knob.  They are black, about 4 mm diameter, about 1 mm thick and look sort of like carbontex.  One sits in a recess in the tail plate behind the bearing and the other sits in a recess in the cast control knob. I did not put oil or lubrication on these for fear of contaminating the bearing with oil.  But, oil is the only thing that makes them stick in place until the tail plate is installed and the cast control knob is screwed on the head plate.  One of mine had slipped a bit and was resting on the edge of the recess instead of the down in the recess.  I figured it out by looking at the spool.  The area between the edge of the spool and the frame was larger on one side than the other.  In other words, the spool was not exactly centered.  This made the line stack up on one side.  I put a tiny glob of grease under them so they would not move before everything was put together.
-steve