180 Lt tackle bay; Extra light casting reel; light tackle casting; Baymaster

[sdlehr]

This model number was listed by several different descriptions in the Penn catalog, according to "Penn Chronology" by Mike Cacioppo. Please post your questions about the chronological history of this reel, or your reel, in this post.

[mo65]

I have a question...does anyone here know what order the different side plates came out? I've seen plain, that cross hatched center, and the ol' lighthouse scene. Also I've seen a myriad of handle types on them...did they just change a lot through the years?

[mo65]

  OK, nobody's interested in the first question,^ I'll try another. 

  My 180 has a steel main gear...would it be noticeably smoother with bronze? No need for extra strength here, looking for a more fluid feel. What is the "feel" of a damaged gear? Maybe my steel gear is worn/damaged. 

[sdlehr]

I have a question...does anyone here know what order the different side plates came out? I've seen plain, that cross hatched center, and the ol' lighthouse scene. Also I've seen a myriad of handle types on them...did they just change a lot through the years?

Hopefully Mike and Ray will be around to help me here... Looking at the pictures in the catalogs it would appear that the year of introduction, 1939, the right handle side plate was plain. The picture in 1940 catalog clearly shows a stippled head plate. I am unable to tell from the catalogs when the picture side plates were introduced in this model. Ray and Mike will probably know.

Sid

[sdlehr]

 OK, nobody's interested in the first question,^ I'll try another.  

 My 180 has a steel main gear...would it be noticeably smoother with bronze? No need for extra strength here, looking for a more fluid feel. What is the "feel" of a damaged gear? Maybe my steel gear is worn/damaged.  

Here is my understanding: the softer the metal of which the gear is constructed, the smoother the feel.... so yes, steel being harder than bronze, the steel gears would initially have a smoother feel. Once the gears are broken in and have worn each other a little, I doubt there would be a noticeable difference in the feel.

My understanding of the "feel" of a damaged gear is that there is a "catch" or "thump" felt when the damaged tooth is engaging it's mate. A damaged main gear will feel rough once in a 180 degree rotation of the handle (assuming one tooth is damaged). A damaged pinion will feel rough several times in a 180 degree handle rotation, depending on the actual gear ratio of the reel.

If you suspect a damaged gear tooth you can disassemble the reel and look carefully, with good light and magnification, at each tooth of each gear. I think that will reveal any damage that may be present.

Sid

[mo65]

The picture in 1940 catalog clearly shows a stippled head plate.

Thanks for answering Sid! I'm thinking what you referred to as "stippled" was what I referred to as "cross hatched"...that is the plate my reel has. 

[sdlehr]

The picture in 1940 catalog clearly shows a stippled head plate.

Thanks for answering Sid! I'm thinking what you referred to as "stippled" was what I referred to as "cross hatched"...that is the plate my reel has. 

Yup. That's what Mike calls it in his books. I don't know, and it's an interesting question, whether the stippled right side plate was matched with both the stippled left at first and later the picture plate left.

Sid

[mo65]

Here is my understanding: the softer the metal of which the gear is constructed, the smoother the feel.

  That is what I was thinking.

  What I'm feeling when tuning the handle is not a thump or bump of a single tooth...more like about half of the gear. Sorta like a growling sound on about half of a full revolution. I've looked at both the main and the pinion...and they look surprisingly sharp. I've noticed this growling on several Penns so maybe this is just the nature of the beast.

[sdlehr]

I know nothing about growling gears, but if you remove your pinion and still feel it it's coming from something else - maybe the top of the drag stack touching the side plate.

Chapter 15 of Mike's green book covers these Light Tackle reels, the 160, 165, 170, 180, 185 and 190. He writes that the stippled right side plate was always present (so the picture in the '39 catalog isn't as clear as it appears), and the left side plate could be either stippled or have that one (and only that one) scene that was the only scene present on any of those Light Tackle reels, including your 180. The way I read it both stippled and picture plates were used on the left side plate simultaneously through the years.... maybe he can clarify if I am misunderstanding.

These Light Tackle Bay reels were later offered with two stands, as Penn offered them with a fresh water stand as well as the standard saltwater stand, and, as Penn stated in their catalog this was their first foray into the freshwater market.

Sid

[mo65]

  Penn stated in their catalog this was their first foray into the freshwater market.

Very interesting Sid! This is what I'm planning to do with my 180...freshwater.

[sdlehr]

Mo, if you loosen the bridge screws on your 180 1/2 turn each, does the growling go away or change at all? Loosening the screws a little will allow the top of the drag stack a little more clearance...

[mo65]

I'll check that when I reassemble Sid...she's currently in pieces on a paper plate...LOL! I'm looking for a plastic spool, and eBay has not been friendly. No way am I paying $25 for one! 

[foakes]

Here is my understanding: the softer the metal of which the gear is constructed, the smoother the feel.

 That is what I was thinking.

 What I'm feeling when tuning the handle is not a thump or bump of a single tooth...more like about half of the gear. Sorta like a growling sound on about half of a full revolution. I've looked at both the main and the pinion...and they look surprisingly sharp. I've noticed this growling on several Penns so maybe this is just the nature of the beast.

Gears run smoother when two metals (one softer, and one harder) interact together.

Generally, the knowledgeable old Penn engineers would use a steel pinion, along with a bronze or brass main.

Pinion turns many times more than the main -- smoother meshing, plus the steel pinion will "break in" the bronze main over a short period of fishing.  When replacing one or both gears -- I find often that they will work OK -- but are noisy.

As for a distortion, or too sharp of an edge that has not crowned evenly -- at a spot on the gear -- with a magnifying glass, I can generally find the issue -- then very carefully file it with a microfile.

Then I use a valve lapping paste or grinding compound on the gears -- reassemble the reel -- place it on the line winder -- and let it work in over around 10 minutes at a medium speed -- in both directions for an even tooth crown.

Toothpaste works too.

Then disassemble -- clean everything in the ultrasonic cleaner using simple green to remove any tiny metal bits -- dry the gears -- reassemble again using either Penn or Yamaha Marine grease.

Put it on the line winder again for around 5 minutes at a steady medium speed.

Generally will eliminate 90% to 95% of the growling noise -- and will be smoother than when brand new.

This works on good spinners, as well as conventionals -- if your gears are pot metal, or soft alloys -- this technique will not work very well.

Got this idea from the bicycle and slot car guys -- modified it a little for reels -- and if in a jam -- it works pretty well in most cases.

When two gears are upgraded SS -- sometimes this will lessen the growl mesh sound -- but never really eliminate it completely.  That is the nature of steel on steel. They will always fight each other -- neither one winning.

Have used Chemico valve grinding or lapping paste.  It is cheap, has silicon carbide bits in it -- and comes in extra fine to extra coarse.  Generally only use fine if not too bad.  If really noisy, I start with coarse -- clean everything out -- then move to fine for a repeat operation.

Just make sure the cleaning process in between applications is complete and thorough -- otherwise the reel will die before its time.

Best,

Fred

[mo65]

Great info Fred! Thanks for posting this...I'm sure I'll find this very useful! 

[Bryan Young]

That's awesome info Fred. Thanks for sharing.