Senator 115, 115-LH, 115L, 115L-LH (9/0)

[mo65]

She looks great Rothmar.

[Deepennz]

Hi there,
I have just acquired a 1938 first Gen 9/0. It has no front rod harness lugs. When did Penn start producing 9/0's with the lugs?  the penn catalogue for 1941 is the first mention of 'after-market' rod braces being available to purchase for 9/0's, but the drawings of the 9/0's show no front lugs. Does anybody have a first gen 9/0 with such lugs?
If so, I would love to see some photo's.

Thank you,
Martin

[sdlehr]

Penn introduced the Senator in '37 with the 115 (9/0) and 116 (12/0). That first year neither had a front brace lug. In '38 they added the front brace to the 12/0, but not the 9/0. '38 also saw the introduction of the 113 (6/0) and 116A (10/0). The first year the 9/0 had a front rod brace was '41. It was listed as such in the catalog, but the photo of the 9/0 does not show it that year. In fact, it would appear that Penn used the same 9/0 diagram in all the catalogs through 1948 - none show a front harness lug, and all are depicted in the first-generation style. It wasn't until 1949 that the catalog diagram/photo reflected the second-generation build style and the front harness lugs.

So, to answer your question, there were first-generation 9/0's made with front harness lugs, but you have to read the catalog to find out, looking at pictures just doesn't do it in this case.

Sid

[Deepennz]

Hi,

At the start of this thread Sid, you mentioned that you had a first gen 9/0 and that you were looking for braces to complete the reel. Do you have photo's of that reel to show?
If you look at Ted's photo's of his array of 9/0's in this thread you can see three variants of the 1st gen 9/0's -
A) 1936 -1938, internal drag, scalloped head plate spool bearing, pear shaped handle,

B)1939-? ,internal drag, hexagonal bearing, football shaped handle,

C)1940?  external drag, hexagonal bearing, football handle. I also have one of these reels. (wish I could do photo's)

None of these variants have front rod harness lugs  on any photo's and reels that I have seen.
In Mike C's books  He expresses uncertainty about the time that the change over from first Gen senators to second Gen reels occurred. If there are no first gen 9/0's with harness lugs made, why would Penn, in the 1941 catalogue, advertise rod braces as being available to purchase in the 'accessories' section for 9/0's. Illogical.

Occam's Razor - the simplest reason should always be assumed to be the correct answer. Penn was selling rod braces for 9/0's  at the start of 1941 because they were making 9/0's with harness lugs then, ie, production of second gen 9/0's commenced at or before the time they produced the 1941 catalogue at least.

Again, Occam's Razor - If Penn started producing second gen 9/0's at the beginning of 1941 then the most logical assumption is that they also started building the other large Senators then in the second gen style  too, for all the same reasons  they changed the 9/0.

As you stated in you reply to me, Sid, looking at the drawings of the reels in the catalogues is misleading. I contend that the best clue we have re the time of the change over is the fact that Penn was selling rod braces for 9/0's in 1941.

One of the strengths of this site is that there is an aggregation of knowledge, photo's and opinions that advance understanding of the history of Penn reels. I repeat, does anyone have a first Gen 9/0 with harness lugs? and if so, could you possibly post photos. If there are none,  then I believe that Penn has told us, in that accessory ad for rod braces, exactly when the change occurred.

Thank you
Martin

[Penn Chronology]

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Re: Senator 115, 115-LH, 115L, 115L-LH (9/0)

« Reply #31 on: June 17, 2017, 04:09:27 PM »
Reply with quoteQuote  


Hi there,
I have just acquired a 1938 first Gen 9/0. It has no front rod harness lugs. When did Penn start producing 9/0's with the lugs?  the penn catalogue for 1941 is the first mention of 'after-market' rod braces being available to purchase for 9/0's, but the drawings of the 9/0's show no front lugs. Does anybody have a first gen 9/0 with such lugs?
If so, I would love to see some photo's.

Thank you,
Martin

Hello Martin and welcome to the site. I own 5 first generation 9/0's, none of them have front braces. Does that mean all first gen 9/0s do not have front braces? No, but it is likely that the 1st gen reels do not have them. Second generation reels do not follow the catalogs 100%. I believe Penn used the same rendition of the Senator set for many years. Even the 16/0 in the catalog pictures is presented as a first gen configuration; but I know that the 16/0 can be documented as a second gen build style in 1942. That 1st gen build style stayed in the Penn catalogs until 1947; but, I suspect the first gen build styles were no longer being produced for that long after the war.
            The first year Senator 115 is the 1936 model.
                 Basically the rules here are a bit loose. The catalog is more of a guide line than an exact representation of when one style was removed or added. Being that rod braces were being offered for 9/0 in 1941 could be a tell that some second gen build styles were available for 9/0 at that time. Really hard to prove that.

[Shark Hunter]

Thank You for your input Mike.
This is above my head and I dared not to comment.
Hopefully this will give Martin some insight that I couldn't provide.
I am all about the Senators, but my "self induced buying parameters" as Ted calls it, prevents me from owning reels such as yours.
A lot of people talk the talk, but it is your book, so You walk the walk.
You are a great asset to this site, and I thank you again for providing all of us, your wisdom,
Daron

[Deepennz]

Hi Mike,

Thank you for the welcome. I have actually  been a 'guest' and then member of this site for about 5 years  - a marvelous resource -  Thank you Alan T
Long ago, my Dad taught me to look, listen, read and learn before I spoke, and between your 3 books (thank you, thank you, thank you!) and on  this website there is a lifetime of reading and learning.
I am certainly not trying to stand on yours or anybody else's toes . I am just trying to use  standard scientific methodology to help solve one of the many riddles in the Penn story. The principle of Occam's Razor - that the simplest explanation for a problem is the correct answer  (in the absence of any data that proves otherwise) is one of the basic pillars of modern scientific enquiry. Without this principle being accepted by the scientific community, life as we know it would not exist. We would all still be arguing over wether the earth is round or flat.

So, we are all in agreement that the drawings of the Penn Senators in the catalogues are misleading. I have 4 1st gen 9/0's, you have 5(far prettier ones than mine!!). Ted has at least 3. That's 12. None have front harness lugs. I am sure there are many collectors reading this site as members, or guests, that between them, add up to hundreds? Then there are the members of Orca. I bet they own a few too.
One of the many things I have learned from your writings (thank you, thank you, thank you!!) is that Penn did quirky things. They also did prototypes, trade reels and one-off's to order. Anything for a sale.  I am certainly not saying that there are no 1st Gen 9/0's with Front harness lugs(FHL). I certainly don't know. But, between us all, we should be able to amass a statistically relevant number of reels to draw valid conclusions about.  As I said in my last post, this would seem to be one of the strengths of this site.
If, after   a relevant number of replies we find that there are no 1st Gen 9/0's with FHL then  the only valid conclusion to draw is that - to the limits of our knowledge - they don't exist.
Again, I certainly don't know but I am very interested.
We know that in 1941, Penn began advertising 9/0 rod braces for sale in the accessary page of their catalogue.  It is illogical for them to do so if they weren't making 9/0's with FHL
All the 2nd Gen 9/0's I have seen, and own, have FHL.
Thus, all I am doing is advancing, in scientific terms, the hypothesis that FHL were added to the 9/0's at the same time as the transition from 1st to 2nd gen Senators took place, and that  hence, in placing that ad for rod braces in the 1941 catalogue, Penn is providing us with written evidence of the time the change took place - on or slightly before they printed the 1941 catalogue.  At our current state of knowledge, this is the simplest explanation for the ad.
I also advanced the hypothesis that, if Penn made this change at the beginning of 1941, then the most logical time for Penn to change all the other Senators to the 2nd Gen style would also be at the beginning of 1941. Penn would have been receiving enough  feedback from their clients, agents, sales people and their own experiences, to realise that, for ergodynamic reasons, they needed to change. Why change just the 9/0 and not the others?. It would seem to be a not very difficult change to make from an engineering perspective - essentially a remodeling of the Headplate. ,Again, I certainly don't know if this is correct, but it seems to explain a lot of the questions raised by photo's of fisherman with their catches, and their reels.
If these 1st Gen large senators where made until 1948, we should expect there to be many more of them, but as you well know, 16/0's are rare indeed. this is easily explained by a short production run of two years (1939-1940).

Compared to you, Mike, I am a grasshopper!! But, with the help of the other members of this site, I believe with  our collective knowledge, reasoned discussions, and photo's(seeing is believing) we have the where with all to reach valid conclusions to this question.

Does anybody have a 1st Gen 9/0 with FHL? If so, can you do photo's? If not, how many 1st gen 9/0's without FHL have you got?

Thank you
Martin
,

[sdlehr]

Hi,

At the start of this thread Sid, you mentioned that you had a first gen 9/0 and that you were looking for braces to complete the reel. Do you have photo's of that reel to show?

Hi Martin, and welcome! I have 5 9/0's in my collection. I'll be using one for shark fishing soon. Of the remaining four, two are first-generation. Neither has a front lug. I'm not sure what I was thinking when I asked that question. The other two have German silver spool flanges. All three second generation reels have front lugs and harness intact, but neither of the first generation reels does. Sorry for the confusion.
Edit:I think what may have happened is that one of my pre-1950 second-gen reels has a numbered rod brace; I was looking for a period-correct brace for that reel, but it was over a year ago and I'm not sure, and it doesn't matter anymore anyway.

[Penn Chronology]

Hi Mike,

Thank you for the welcome. I have actually  been a 'guest' and then member of this site for about 5 years  - a marvelous resource -  Thank you Alan T
Long ago, my Dad taught me to look, listen, read and learn before I spoke, and between your 3 books (thank you, thank you, thank you!) and on  this website there is a lifetime of reading and learning.
I am certainly not trying to stand on yours or anybody else's toes . I am just trying to use  standard scientific methodology to help solve one of the many riddles in the Penn story. The principle of Occam's Razor - that the simplest explanation for a problem is the correct answer  (in the absence of any data that proves otherwise) is one of the basic pillars of modern scientific enquiry. Without this principle being accepted by the scientific community, life as we know it would not exist. We would all still be arguing over wether the earth is round or flat.

So, we are all in agreement that the drawings of the Penn Senators in the catalogues are misleading. I have 4 1st gen 9/0's, you have 5(far prettier ones than mine!!). Ted has at least 3. That's 12. None have front harness lugs. I am sure there are many collectors reading this site as members, or guests, that between them, add up to hundreds? Then there are the members of Orca. I bet they own a few too.
One of the many things I have learned from your writings (thank you, thank you, thank you!!) is that Penn did quirky things. They also did prototypes, trade reels and one-off's to order. Anything for a sale.  I am certainly not saying that there are no 1st Gen 9/0's with Front harness lugs(FHL). I certainly don't know. But, between us all, we should be able to amass a statistically relevant number of reels to draw valid conclusions about.  As I said in my last post, this would seem to be one of the strengths of this site.
If, after   a relevant number of replies we find that there are no 1st Gen 9/0's with FHL then  the only valid conclusion to draw is that - to the limits of our knowledge - they don't exist.
Again, I certainly don't know but I am very interested.
We know that in 1941, Penn began advertising 9/0 rod braces for sale in the accessary page of their catalogue.  It is illogical for them to do so if they weren't making 9/0's with FHL
All the 2nd Gen 9/0's I have seen, and own, have FHL.
Thus, all I am doing is advancing, in scientific terms, the hypothesis that FHL were added to the 9/0's at the same time as the transition from 1st to 2nd gen Senators took place, and that  hence, in placing that ad for rod braces in the 1941 catalogue, Penn is providing us with written evidence of the time the change took place - on or slightly before they printed the 1941 catalogue.  At our current state of knowledge, this is the simplest explanation for the ad.
I also advanced the hypothesis that, if Penn made this change at the beginning of 1941, then the most logical time for Penn to change all the other Senators to the 2nd Gen style would also be at the beginning of 1941. Penn would have been receiving enough  feedback from their clients, agents, sales people and their own experiences, to realise that, for ergodynamic reasons, they needed to change. Why change just the 9/0 and not the others?. It would seem to be a not very difficult change to make from an engineering perspective - essentially a remodeling of the Headplate. ,Again, I certainly don't know if this is correct, but it seems to explain a lot of the questions raised by photo's of fisherman with their catches, and their reels.
If these 1st Gen large senators where made until 1948, we should expect there to be many more of them, but as you well know, 16/0's are rare indeed. this is easily explained by a short production run of two years (1939-1940).

Compared to you, Mike, I am a grasshopper!! But, with the help of the other members of this site, I believe with  our collective knowledge, reasoned discussions, and photo's(seeing is believing) we have the where with all to reach valid conclusions to this question.

Does anybody have a 1st Gen 9/0 with FHL? If so, can you do photo's? If not, how many 1st gen 9/0's without FHL have you got?

Thank you
Martin]

Hello Martin,

I agree and I think I said something to the effect of what you said, only not as eloquently as you. I prefer to have solid verifiable facts; but, since we are dealing with undocumented history, we must try to guess with reasoning. I always say, in the world of Penn, never use the words, Perfect, Never or Always. Nothing is 100%. In the world of big business Penn was a small company. The controls at Penn (Pre-Pure Fishing)were always in the hands of family ownership. If someone in the family wanted something to exist, not-exist or be sold to the public until the stock was depleted (no matter what the catalog says), then it was so. There was an extreme personal touch at Penn which sort of bent the historical continuity presented by the catalogs. That said, the Fun Aspect is in the results from extreme speculation........................

[sdlehr]

While we're on it, here is a pic of my two first generation 9/0s (without front lugs)

[Deepennz]

Hi Sid,
Thanks for your reply and the photo's of your reels - they are prettier than my reels too - that doorknob handle!!! Well done.
I probably went overboard on the scientific side in my last thread, but I was deliberately trying to 'hook' you - as a veterinarian you are,  in the first instance, a scientist, and hence would be able to understand what I am postulating.

So, as of now, the count is 14 without, and zero with, FHL.
Just as significant is that there have been nearly 200 'views', and no one has come forward with any confirmed sightings of the rare beast!!

I would also like to thank you for setting up this Penn - vintage  board.  As an old guy it is nice to know that it is  OK to Rule at anything these days!

Ray, Ted, if I had to pick anyone on this planet who has a 1st gen 9/0 with FHL I would pick one of you two. Can you add to this discussion?

Mike - thanks for the reply. You must know many, many collectors on a first name basis - can they add something?

Hi Darren. I have to say thank you for your welcoming words on an earlier thread I wrote some time ago.  Your 'one-liner" about just getting enjoyment from sitting on the couch with a beer, watching TV and twirling the handle of your favourite reel, has to be one of the best on this site. It still makes me laugh now thinking about it. It certainly sums up my evenings!!

Has any body got a first gen 9/0 with FHL?

Thanks
Martin


Psst  Sid!! About that reel with the door knob handle   - Man, have I got a deal for you................

[sdlehr]

Martin, I've had that doorknob handle 9/0 for a little over a year now, this is the first time I've let on that I have it. I bought it from a member here. At the time I bought it I believe it was the 5th reel found with this handle, and I've not heard of others since. Apparently, Mike didn't know about this one when he wrote his book, which I believe accounts for four of these. The other reel in the picture is a '36 or '37 model, bought from another member here. I don't have many reels in my collection that would make others envious. I haven't had this one long enough to tire of it yet, check back with me in a few years.

I'm not sure I would consider all 200 of those views; likely many are from non-members lurking, and they can't comment unless they join. I think we're on course for 2.7 million hits on this site this month. I'm glad not everyone feels the need to comment....

Sid

[Tightlines667]

That's a centerpiece reel for sure Sid!

My first gen 9/0 has no FHLs.  This has been the case with all first gen style 9/0s I have seen on Ebay, and in other AT/ORCA members collections I have seen.

When talking first gen 9/0s (Ray's?) first gen style 9/0 with the externally accessable drags (typically considered to be associated with 2nd gen reels) immediately comes to mind.  There is a discussion regarding this topic somewhere else on AT.  I have had my eye out for one since Ted brought this my attention.

John

[Penn Chronology]

Martin,

I own 5 first gen 9/0's but have had many others pass through my hinds over the years. Many I have photo'd and saved the photos. None of them use front harness lugs. I think if one were to be found, it would probably be a modified reel. You can take the later model inner trim rings and dado out the side plates to add a set of front harness lugs to a first gen reel. Not too much trouble to do. Penn simply did not consider the front lugs until it made the 12/o and even with the 12/0, the first versions did not have front lugs. So front harness lugs are an after thought in terms of the early Penn big game reels.

[Deepennz]

Hi John,

Thanks for the input. As I mentioned above, I actually have one of those 1st gen, external drag 9/0's. I have had it for over three years. When I first got it I was so pleased to have a 1st gen 9/0, that I did not realise it's significance. I just sat on the couch with it and twirled the handle!!
It wasn't until Ray posted that these 'variants' were rare, and produced just before Penn changed over to the 2nd gen style that I looked closer at the reel, and began to wonder - where are the FHL? If this later model had no FHL, where are the 9/0's with FHL?
Since then I have acquired three more 1st gen 9/0's - all 1936- 1938, first variant style. Again, no FHL.
Hence, this informal survey.

Mike - thanks again for your very important input. There does seem to be a building consensus that Penn never made any 1st gen 9/0's with FHL. However, it is worth waiting until enough replies have come in before we can come to a definite conclusion,

Sid, - you are the right guardian of that door knob reel - I was just joking - a reflection on the OCD reel collectors lot.

Has anybody got a 1st gen 9/0 with FHL?

Martin