61-62-63 Long Beach

Started by sdlehr, April 07, 2016, 09:40:49 PM

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George4741

Quote from: Penn Chronology on August 18, 2016, 05:43:45 AM

Thanks for taking the time to verify the interchanges. You have helped me with this info.

You are welcome,
George
viurem lliures o morirem

Penn Chronology

#16
I got back into the Model 62 Long Beach. Basically what I have are a bunch of parts. I have two small Long Beach head plates and one tail plate. I have the correct trim rings for all these plates and now, Thanks to George4741, I now know that the internals from a Penn 99 will work in these reels. Except for the spool. In my bunch of parts is a spool that I thought was the perfect spool for this reel. Unfortunately, after the conversations we have had here and me looking deeper into what I thought was a generally non-interchangeable bunch of parts, I have made a discovery that is working against me. First thing I did was go into my collection for a known, original Model 62 Long Beach.


This reel is correct. It is an early model reel that may or may not be in an original box. I believe these boxes are original to the early versions of the small frame reels. I do not believe the small frame reels were put into the old style boxes; but, of course, I will not swear to it because every time I figure what I am saying about Penn is 100% right, someone pulls something out of their closet to refute me. But I know this reel is early and correct. So we might as well talk about the Model 62 because I do not believe anyone has put one into the thread yet and here is where it belongs.


The early versions of the small frame reels were interesting because they used old parts like the hex head handle screw and the wood bell shaped handle knob; but, in the early double bar logo, they were presented as Patented, not Patent Pending as their larger version were.


Early small frame reels had plain tail plates and used a waffle cut clicker button. The bottom of the stand is also plain. Line capacity numberings did not show up until around 1937 or 38.


Now, about what has been driving me crazy for awhile. I want to put another Model 62 together. I thought I had all the parts when I started. Here is the spare spool I have that came with the parts.


The spool I have is the same width as the Model 62 spool which I removed from my known original reel. But, as you can see, the head plate side of the spool has a different shaft set up. This is what caused my problem.


Even though this spool is the same width as my Model 62 and the exact same diameter and it perfectly fits the Model 62 tail plate, it will not work because of the pinion gear engagement problem and the fact that the shaft is too short.


So now, I have assembled my original Model 62 and put it aside for future servicing and I am left with this useless spool.

I have one other question that I am still wondering about. Since this spool does not fit my Model 62, what reel does it fit?


Superhook

Mike,

The spool probably comes from a 150 yard reel that does not have a drag or a normal Free Spool Lever which moves the pinion gear on the spool shaft .

Possibly a Newport which relies on pulling out the handle for free spool. As it has a line post and not a drilled hole that dismisses most of the little pre '39 reels.

Ray

Penn Chronology

QuoteThe spool probably comes from a 150 yard reel that does not have a drag or a normal Free Spool Lever which moves the pinion gear on the spool shaft .

You could be right. I will check that later. Thanks for the next clue. Oh wait!! I do not have a 150 Newport or a 100 yard version. Artie did; but, he passed.....<:O(---Do you have a small 150 Newport? They are kind of rare.

Penn Chronology

#19
The worm turns!       So far I believe the type shaft on my incorrect spool is the same type shaft used on a Penn Delmar, Penn 85 or a Penn Long Beach 60 or 65. The travel of the pinion gear on the mentioned reels is not on the spool shaft, it is on the long spool bearings. so, the incorrect spool I pictured is the perfect width and diameter for a Penn Model 62 and the perfect shaft style for a Model 285, 85, 60 & 65. So now I am stumped again. I know the spool I have is incorrect for my Model 62 and that also makes me doubt other aspects of what I am trying to figure out. My Model 62 investigation continues until the next post.

Penn Chronology

#20
I want to show what I have and what started my quest into the interchangeability or lack there of concerning the small frame reels.

I have two incomplete Long Beach 62's.

They are both from different ends of the production run, have different handles and different logos,


This is the first early production run logo.

and this is the logo used at the end of the production run in the late 1930's.

Even though these reels have differences, the are basically the same reels at their heart. The size, internals and all other physical aspects are basically the same throughout the entire production run.


With that said, I expected to have no problem finding the parts to put these two reels back together. Admittedly, the reel on the right is only a head plate. So I never really expected to find a tail plate and all the internals. When I got both of these reels, they had no internals. The discussion here revealed the internals of these Long Beach models are mostly borrowed from the Penn Silver Beach. At the time in history we are talking about, the Silver Beach was made in two versions, The Model 98 and the Model 97. The internal parts for these Long Beach models are taken from the Silver Beach Model 97 (after the war, the Model 97 became the Model 99 and the Model 98 disappeared into history).
                I had enough Model 99 parts on hand to complete the two head plates, so now I have one complete head plate and one complete reel minus a spool. When I started this little project, I did not expect the biggest, unsolvable problem to be the spool. A spool came with these parts, unfortunately, the perfectly sized spool is wrong.
                This caused a kink in my assembly process. Since I had a incorrect spool, how was I going to know what the correct pinion gear was that belonged in this reel. We have already determined that the internal parts from a Penn 99 will work in this reel.



                After building both head plates with Penn 99 internals, there is no doubt to their fit; but, the pinion gear is not a Penn 99 pinion gear. A Penn 99 matched the shaft size of a Penn 259, 500, 140, 200, which is too large to be used in my known original example of this reel, consequently, the Penn 99 pinion gear is no good for this installation. I had to take out a bunch of spools and try to find one that works.
                I was able to match a shaft size that will work; but, I cannot find a spool in the correct width or diameter with that size for my Model 62's. The shaft size that fits the original Model 62 in collection is used on many Penn reels, Namely, the Models 155, 160, 165, 180, 185, 209, 25, 26 & 27. Possible there are more that I may have missed. So I built my head plates with 99 internals and a 155 pinion.
                I now know my reels are correctly assembled; but, still missing spools. One correct spool would enable to complete one reel. Of course the internals will never be historically correct because they are from later model reels; but, at least they are mechanically correct.
                Now, all I need to do is find a spool with a Model 155 shaft that is 1 11/16 inches wide with a flange diameter of 2 3/8 inches. Then my one reel can be whole again. :(  

George4741

#21
Quote from: Penn Chronology on August 20, 2016, 06:47:59 AM


Even though this spool is the same width as my Model 62 and the exact same diameter and it perfectly fits the Model 62 tail plate, it will not work because of the pinion gear engagement problem and the fact that the shaft is too short.

I have one other question that I am still wondering about. Since this spool does not fit my Model 62, what reel does it fit?


It fits a 78 Sea Scamp ??? ???
viurem lliures o morirem

foakes

#22
This might work, Michael --

1 21/32" width

2 3/8" diameter

11/64" pinion end

1/8" pinion end where bearing goes

This pinion end is slightly larger than the 209 shown -- 11/64" compared to 5/32" on the 209.

However, end and length are the same.

It was in the bin, and it is not numbered --

If you think it will work -- you are welcome to it -- I will send it your way (George may know) --

It appears possibly unused -- looks like it just fell out of the box years ago.

Please advise --

Best,

Fred
The Official, Un-Authorized Service and Restoration Center for quality vintage spinning reels.

D-A-M Quick, Penn, Mitchell, and ABU/Zebco Cardinals

--------

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Penn Chronology

QuoteIf you think it will work -- you are welcome to it -- I will send it your way (George may know) --

I really wish I could say yes; but, it is one size off. It seems the size of the spool is correct as is the bearing size; but the pinion in the Model 62 is a Number 13-155 and takes a 5/32 inch shaft. The 11/64 spool shaft is the size for a Squidder or a Surfmaster.

Please save that spool for another needy guy, it is a great part. That spool you have is a very hard to find part. It would work perfectly in a 150 Coronado---Model 92 or the super rare Ocean Side---Model 82. Thank you very much for the offer.

QuoteIt fits a 78 Sea Scamp

Here the spool looks like it fits the Sea Scamp; but, again, it is strange because the Sea Scamp was made for over 20 years; but, never had anything but a plastic spool. So the spool I need seems to be unique to the Model 62 or any of the other small 150 yard reels made in the 1930 except for the Coronado or Ocean Side. Those have the spool that Fred has.


George4741

Two different spool shafts for what is basically the same reel? ??? ???
viurem lliures o morirem

Penn Chronology

QuoteTwo different spool shafts for what is basically the same reel?

Yes, it surprised me also. I have many of these small frame reels. The 150 yard versions all are the same spool diameter and width; but they all do not have the same pinion shaft diameter. My small frame Coronado has a 11/64 shaft, as an Ocean Side model would more than likely share.

I pulled the spool from a 150 yard Bayside--Model 52 and it uses the same spool as the Long Beach 150 yard reel. All the small frame reels share the same spool bearing; but, not the pinion shaft. That does not make sense; but, I double checked it and that is how Penn built the ones I have opened so far.

sdlehr

#26
Quote from: Reel 224 on August 22, 2016, 11:19:25 AM
Mike: I recently refurbished a Long Beach 65 and it has a spool that is plastic or Bakelite, you mentioned that the spool you have fits a assortment of reels including the 65 in chrome. Did the 65 come with chrome and Plastic spools?

Joe    
Joe, when the US was about to enter WWII the US government controlled metal distribution for the war effort. During those years of WWII many Penn reels that had previously come with only metal spools were introduced with plastic spools. The metal spools could be purchased for an additional $1. After the war those reels whose spools were replaced with plastic could once again be found with standard metal spools. So while most of the time the Long Beaches came with metal spools, there were some years plastic was more common, and there were also plastic spools from other reels that would fit the Long Beach 65, so you could actually have a spool on that reel that didn't leave the factory with it.

Sid
Sid Lehr
Veterinarian, fishing enthusiast, custom rod builder, reel collector

RowdyW

And if you want to put in an aluminum spool in your 65  get a Seaboy 190 spool 1992 & newer. A perfect fit.     Rudy

Penn Chronology

QuoteMike: I recently refurbished a Long Beach 65 and it has a spool that is plastic or Bakelite, you mentioned that the spool you have fits a assortment of reels including the 65 in chrome. Did the 65 come with chrome and Plastic spools?

Joe    

Joe, when the US was about to enter WWII the US government controlled metal distribution for the war effort. During those years of WWII many Penn reels that had previously come with only metal spools were introduced with plastic spools. The metal spools could be purchased for an additional $1. After the war those reels whose spools were replaced with plastic could once again be found with standard metal spools. So while most of the time the Long Beaches came with metal spools, there were some years plastic was more common, and there were also plastic spools from other reels that would fit the Long Beach 65, so you could actually have a spool on that reel that didn't leave the factory with it.

Sid is correct, the war affected the availability of copper and copper alloys dramatically. The Long Beach models were documented as L.S. models (lightweight spool). I believe L.S. models were available before and probably shortly after the war. For the most part, the Penn Long Beach was a reel that was only offered with a metal spool. The years around the war are the only exception for that model, so if you have a Long Beach with a plastic spool it should be a mid 1940's build style only, otherwise, the spool was changed by someone other than Penn.

Maxed Out

#29
   I would like to point out that Penn gave us a good hint as to which years the LB 60 & 65 had plastic spools as a standard component and offered metal for an additional cost.

  In my opinion the 60 & 65 switched over to plastic spools sometime in 1941 and did not transition back to metal spool on the 60 & 65 until 1949.

  It took a few years of recovery before small companys like Penn could obtain all the metals needed to make their products after WWII. Penns plastic spool had a much larger arbor than the metal spool and that reduced line capacity. Penn hesitated to reduce the listed yardage on the L.S. models made prior to the war, but after the war they came clean and relisted the LB60 yardage as 200 and the LB65 as 250 yds, because of the large arbor on those plastic spools. Let me remind everyone that the LB60 was always listed as a 250yd reel and 65 as a 300yd reel. The reduction of yardage in the catalogs just after the war reflected the smaller capacity from the large arbor plastic spool.... By referencing the Penn Model years in mikes book(back section), one can conclude that Penn put plastic spools on the 60 & 65 thru 1948, and offered metal spool for additional cost. Then in 1949 the 60 & 65 returned to metal spool and went back to being 250 & 300 yard reels and plastic was no longer an option on the long beach.

 The boxes from these years(46,47,48) also show that Penn wasn't proud of their plastic spools..... those boxes did not say anything in reference to the plastic spool except less line capacity than before, but in 1949 when they switched back to metal spool they proudly printed it in big letters across the front of the box.


Sorry for the run on sentence, just trying to explain my reasoning and experiences with the long beach.

 Ted

 
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