Penn Baja Special anti-reverse problem

Started by steelfish, May 03, 2016, 04:37:16 PM

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handi2

I put a full width Delrin washer under the gear of the new US113N. It covers the top of the dog posts. It probably has no ill effect.
OCD Reel Service & Repair
Gulf Breeze, FL

jurelometer

Quote from: Robert Janssen on May 14, 2016, 02:50:37 PM


Quote...and we get 435 lbs of force at 27 lbs of drag (assuming my math is correct)

Well, i didn't work too hard on it, but that number seemed really unreasonable at first glance. Giving it a closer look, it seems to me to be about 70 pounds.

(Which doesn't take into account the height of the dogs high up on the posts, and presumes a purely tangential force between dog post and ratchet, or that there are two dogs, so thats 35 lbs each if they are synchronous)

It doesn't take into account that i haven'had enough coffee taday either though.

.



Hmm,

Well maybe my problem is too much coffee :)

Can Robert or some other physics whiz  show what is wrong with my formula?  I included the reasoning below.

I am doing a basic calculation and  skipping any angular or off center loads.  The idea is to determine the amount of load  generated if the system is behaving perfectly.   This gives us a ballpark idea of the forces involved.
-----
The question: for a given drag setting at a given spool fullness- how much force is being plsced upon the dog post?
-----

Variables:

Linear load  (drag setting):  27 lbs 
Spool Radius:  1.5 in
Gear Raio:  4.3:1
ratchet  radius:  .4 in
-----
1. Torque measured at spool :  27*1.5  =  40.5 pound-in   (adjust load proportionally to account for pound-in being a   1 inch arm lever-  we have all seen at the same torque (star setting), the drag goes up proportionally to the spool radius shrinking as line goes out).

2.  Torque measured at main gear: 40.5 *4.3 =174.15  (the amount of rotational effort  goes up proportionally to gear ratio, as any two-speed reel user will attest).

3.  Convert torque on main gear to force on ratchet.

174.15/ .4   =   435.375 (this is the inverse of force to torque – we need to convert from  pounds of directional force  at 1 in  (i.e,  torque) to lbs of force at 0.4 in  (the ratchet contact point).   the shorter length means that we should adjust upward proportionately).

Thanks,
-J

Robert Janssen

Still working on my morning coffee here, but the thing was that 435 was just a really big number. 435 lbs... that is like the weight of a motorcycle. How did we get from a fishing reel to a motorcycle? It seemed unright.

So I looked at it like you did, did the math the same way, same thing. Looked at it and reduced it bit more logically: Two levers, one minus the other, times the gear ratio.

So the 1.5 on the spool minus the 0.4 from the ratchet = 1.1, and then the 27 lbs and the gear ratio bit.

(two levers... the spool and the ratchet. Imagine they were pointing the same direction, upwards in a diagram. Now imagine they were of equal length. How would things work out then? The force on the ratchet woul become less as size increased, right?)

Quote...show what is wrong with my formula?

I think it is that part right there.... that divided by, ought to be an X. That's all.

Well, anyway, that about that then... going for a refill now.

oc1

Having the spring under the dog may be part of the problem.  That lets the dog tilt upward and get more leverage against the post.  From the scoring on the bottom of the main gear it appears the dogs tilted upward (away from the bridge) when they failed.  If they had tilted the other direction they would have chewed up the ratchet.  The rounding of the ratchet when it was stamped may not have been a contributing factor.

Looks like there is plenty of room there to install something better.  But, shouldn't the fisher expect more from a reel designed and manufactured in the U.S.?
-steve

Cortez_Conversions

#64
Quote from: oc1 on May 16, 2016, 09:01:59 AM
Having the spring under the dog may be part of the problem.  That lets the dog tilt upward and get more leverage against the post.  From the scoring on the bottom of the main gear it appears the dogs tilted upward (away from the bridge) when they failed.  If they had tilted the other direction they would have chewed up the ratchet.  The rounding of the ratchet when it was stamped may not have been a contributing factor.

Looks like there is plenty of room there to install something better.  But, shouldn't the fisher expect more from a reel designed and manufactured in the U.S.?
-steve

I agree Steve.

We are paying a premium for these reels because we expect quality from Penn.

I have new dogs made and am half way done with a new ratchet. The reel I'm using actually sounds different now that the dogs are held square. the dogs are ticking smoothly and because of proper engagement are a bit louder.
I still think the dog post splay is from the dogs breaking down, the reel losing anti reverse and pulling the dogs thru the gap.
With the dogs so poorly aligned, it wedges, and at that moment pushes the posts away.
I think I'll have everything done this afternoon.
Tom
Visit: cortezconversions.com
Forget about all the reasons why something may not work. You only need to find one good reason why it will.-Sal

Islandgypsy

Tom, looking forward to your re-design. Hope you have plans to offer this in kit form. 
  Greg

Cortez_Conversions

I finished the ratchet and everything looks good.
The only problem is I lost the sub shaft pinion! New one on it's way....I can't do any testing with mine until that shaft arrives
Sorry I won't have this done for you guys to take to Penn.
Anyway, I need to build a few sets and do some testing.
Rusty old colt has volunteered, how about you steelfish? Can I send a bridge to you to torture test?
I need one more angler who can get these on the water immediately...
Thanks all.
Tom
Visit: cortezconversions.com
Forget about all the reasons why something may not work. You only need to find one good reason why it will.-Sal

swill88

Tom... not immediate... but going for tuna the 27th, 28th on the Prowler out of SD.

113HN going with me

steve

steelfish

Quote from: Cortez_Conversions on May 17, 2016, 03:52:19 AM

Anyway, I need to build a few sets and do some testing.
Rusty old colt has volunteered, how about you steelfish? Can I send a bridge to you to torture test?
I need one more angler who can get these on the water immediately...
Thanks all.
Tom

I fee honored with your offer
If course I can give some hard use to those parts

The Baja Guy

Cortez_Conversions

Quote from: swill88 on May 17, 2016, 04:56:55 AM
Tom... not immediate... but going for tuna the 27th, 28th on the Prowler out of SD.

113HN going with me

steve
Sounds good Steve,
Please PM your address.
Tom
Visit: cortezconversions.com
Forget about all the reasons why something may not work. You only need to find one good reason why it will.-Sal

steelfish

Quote from: steelfish on May 17, 2016, 05:24:51 AM
Quote from: Cortez_Conversions on May 17, 2016, 03:52:19 AM

Anyway, I need to build a few sets and do some testing.
Rusty old colt has volunteered, how about you steelfish? Can I send a bridge to you to torture test?
I need one more angler who can get these on the water immediately...
Thanks all.
Tom

I fee honored with your offer
If course I can give some hard use to those parts



damn cell phone
=============================

I feel honored with your offer, Tom
of course I can give some hard use to those parts and let you know how they holded after few weeks of use.



The Baja Guy

handi2

Tom we use 4 Baja's offshore in my 31' boat. They are the go to reel when bottom fishing. Everyone grabs them first because of the gear ratio.

If not using them we use Avet's and Trinidad's.

I would have no problem using your ratchet in a new US113N that's pulling 30lbs on the drag scale. More than I can get with the identical Baja.

Keith
OCD Reel Service & Repair
Gulf Breeze, FL

steelfish

Quote from: handi2 on May 17, 2016, 05:41:03 PM
I would have no problem using your ratchet in a new US113N that's pulling 30lbs on the drag scale. More than I can get with the identical Baja.

Keith

what did you do to this US113hn to reach more drag of an equal Baja Specia?

just the delrin under the gear?
Im using a delrin washer on top of the dragstack, it barely fit but works good
The Baja Guy

Rivverrat

#73
Some pics. You can see the evident stress on the sleeve & post better by clicking on the picture. This reel was being fished past 30 lbs. of drag In heavy current. Cat was not much more than 50 lbs. Got a good look at him prior to reel going knuckle buster. As can be seen here & on all other sleeves Ive done this on, the threads on the sleeve will begin to strip out when cranking the drag down far & hard enough to get 30+  lbs. of drag. I would like to say I've no expectation of this reel to continually fish 30 plus lbs. of drag. I just wished to see what would happen.

Steelfish, the star on the US113 rubs on the side plate  when its cranked down hard. Some thicker washers raises the star further above the side plate allowing more drag....Jeff

handi2

#74
I shimmed on top of the handle side bearing so the star wouldn't hit the side plate. I have stripped the star on a Baja last year.

It probably won't get fished at 30lbs. That's too much to hold for most folks.
OCD Reel Service & Repair
Gulf Breeze, FL