Penn Baja Special anti-reverse problem

Started by steelfish, May 03, 2016, 04:37:16 PM

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steelfish

Quote from: oc1 on May 19, 2016, 08:17:20 PM
The Baja Special model was replaced with the US113N.  Do the US113N, US113 and US113W all have the same design flaw as the Baja?
-steve

its exactly the same reel with color and name changed, Baja name on the side plates was apparently not a marketing success as well as the black color scheme that resembled an old school reel.

if you have a US senator reel, you might want to check what Tom (cortez convertion) comes up with.

The Baja Guy

Cortez_Conversions

Quote from: oc1 on May 19, 2016, 08:17:20 PM
The Baja Special model was replaced with the US113N.  Do the US113N, US113 and US113W all have the same design flaw as the Baja?
-steve
Yes, same bridge and dogs. I think they went to a brass ratchet.

As for cost, probably around $75.00. Which sucks considering we shell out ,what, $300 buck for an American made reel?

We are going to have to do a swap on the bridges, those are $24.00 each. Kind of a core charge thing.
You send me your bridge and I'll rework it and send it back in the kit. Probably won't be your original bridge, but you get the picture.

Visit: cortezconversions.com
Forget about all the reasons why something may not work. You only need to find one good reason why it will.-Sal

Alto Mare

Tom, how about peening the dog posts instead of using screws? It has worked for them for many years.
But I'm sure whatever you come up with will be an improvement.
Forget about all the reasons why something may not work. You only need to find one good reason why it will.

SoCalAngler

#93
I have followed this a bit and kind of understand whats being discussed here, I think. If the issue is in the dogs and ratchet and from what has been said in this thread like "I still think the dog post splay is from the dogs breaking down, the reel losing anti reverse and pulling the dogs thru the gap. With the dogs so poorly aligned, it wedges, and at that moment pushes the posts away" is there a need for a new bridge and dog posts? As I see it, and I may be way off base here, if the alignment of the ratchet by either a new designed ratchet, or a sleeve with a ratchet built in, machined dogs out of a stronger metal other than what has been said to be a cast material and maybe some new dog springs would this not correct the issues some are having without making/adding a new bridge and or replacing dog posts?

Like stated before, maybe the "testing" should start with the new ratchet, either fixed or a stand alone on the sleeve, non-cast dogs and maybe the stronger springs before a new bridge is even looked at?

Cortez_Conversions

Quote from: Alto Mare on May 20, 2016, 01:01:49 AM
Tom, how about peening the dog posts instead of using screws? It has worked for them for many years.
But I'm sure whatever you come up with will be an improvement.

My honest answer Sal: I don't know how!
I don't have any of the equipment necessary to peen the way the old school Penns are peened. Not this new age BS with a little dimple, but the serious deformation of metal.
A press fit and a screw on the backside should keep.I added a top cap to the dog post to keep the dogs square. If the post were permanently peened, the dogs could never be replaced.
Again, I don't think the post splay is from drag pressure. I think it's when those cast dogs degrade to the point they are pulled past tangent with the ratchet and act as a wedge. With new dogs, this shouldn't be a problem.

Time will tell.

I'm driving down to LA to visit my folks, so I won't be around much till Monday.
Visit: cortezconversions.com
Forget about all the reasons why something may not work. You only need to find one good reason why it will.-Sal

richard

 for what its worth I changed the anti-reverse on  both my baja-specials by carefully filing one of the dogs,
so that they both engage at the same time.
They have been used like this for about 7 years ,one on 60lb mono and the other 100lb braid.
I use about 25lb if drag....measured on a full spool with spring balance...for yellowtail etc.
Sometimes you have to pull for a break with a snagged jig direct against the AR.
They have been faultless with no sign of bent posts last time I serviced them.
I assume that the force against my AR posts is half that of a stock Baja, which is why I did it.
Yes there is a little more handle back play but I don't notice it.
I don't know why Penn went for the tall posts and big gap under the AR, as jurelometer points out
the side strain is huge.

Rivverrat

#96
Quote from: Cortez_Conversions on May 19, 2016, 03:55:26 PM
You know, the more I think about it, I'm leaning towards a one piece gear sleeve.
There isn't much meat on the ledge where the handle sits. I had to file the deformed material off before I could get the drag stack and bearings off.
It's gonna cost you guys more, but you will only have to replace it once!
I think the kit will consist of the following:
Hardened stainless steel gear sleeve.
Hardened stainless steel dog set with springs.
Modified Bridge. I want to ream the dog post holes true before pressing in the new posts.
Stainless screws and washers for the dog posts.
Thoughts?

Regarding the one piece gear sleeve. This gets rid of an area for potential slop from use over time. Also as you state there is not much support there for the ratchet. Tom, everything you mention is a major improvement & exactly what was on my dream list for improving this reel !!!!!!!!!!  Threading the studs/stainless screws & washers....CANT WAIT...I NEEDED THIS A YEAR AGO.
These improvements should kill any & all issues I've witnessed when fishing this reel with 25 lbs. & slightly more drag. The strength & durability with these improvements I believe will be there.


Over all I'm EXTREMELY excited about this. Why, because I see the Vanguard/Benchmark heavy, Big Cat river reel in the polishing up stage... GETERDONE ! ...Jeff  

Rivverrat

#97
Quote from: richard on May 20, 2016, 12:08:46 PM
for what its worth I changed the anti-reverse on  both my baja-specials by carefully filing one of the dogs,
so that they both engage at the same time.
They have been used like this for about 7 years ,one on 60lb mono and the other 100lb braid.
I use about 25lb if drag....measured on a full spool with spring balance...for yellowtail etc.
 
Richard, I find this interesting. Can I ask how many times a year do you usually get out to fish ? Also what's the size range of the fish you catch?

I would also like to say as already brought up....the strength with these improvements will of course cause a failure point elsewhere at some point if pushed.
My thoughts on the goal here has been, that this reel have the capacity to be fished within the specs as stated by Penn with "Durable Longevity" especially at the higher end of this reels drag specs.
Well see, however I think what Tom is doing will achieve this nicely....Jeff








richard


Rivverrat...
                    Since 2002 I have been fishing about 400 to 500 hours each winter in Cabo.
The baja specials are used with 20 /25 lb drag for Yellowtail ,Yellowfin and casting to Snapper in the rocks.All pulled drag.
Also for striped Marlin as a drop back outfit....with about 15lb of drag.
I did not like the look of the "alternating"AR system ( something has to bend before the back up dog comes into play?)
so I filed one of the dogs down to get a true double AR.
This has worked well on both reels. No sign of wear on the AR dogs, and the file marks on the dogs seem to have "work hardened".
The posts are dead straight, even after a few "sealion test"
  To be fair to the baja special I expect them to pull the same or more drag as the international 30,s and Senator 50,s I use for trolling.
With the 7 surface drag,supported pinion and stainless gearing this reel actually "does what it says on the tin!".
Casting is as good as it gets and no bearing side load with a star drag.
Good luck with and mods Guys,this reel is worth it. ;D

steelfish

Quote from: richard on May 23, 2016, 02:08:43 PM

Rivverrat...
                    Since 2002 I have been fishing about 400 to 500 hours each winter in Cabo.
The baja specials are used with 20 /25 lb drag for Yellowtail ,Yellowfin and casting to Snapper in the rocks.All pulled drag.
Also for striped Marlin as a drop back outfit....with about 15lb of drag.
I did not like the look of the "alternating"AR system ( something has to bend before the back up dog comes into play?)
so I filed one of the dogs down to get a true double AR.
This has worked well on both reels. No sign of wear on the AR dogs, and the file marks on the dogs seem to have "work hardened".
The posts are dead straight, even after a few "sealion test"
  To be fair to the baja special I expect them to pull the same or more drag as the international 30,s and Senator 50,s I use for trolling.
With the 7 surface drag,supported pinion and stainless gearing this reel actually "does what it says on the tin!".
Casting is as good as it gets and no bearing side load with a star drag.
Good luck with and mods Guys,this reel is worth it. ;D


This sound like true Baja test.
Congrats on the idea of double engaged dogs


The Baja Guy

PacRat

Richard,
Thanks for the tip on filing the dogs so they engage simultaneously. I found that my post were tweaked but not as much as some on here. This will hold me over until the fix is worked out.
Mike

Rivverrat

Richard, thank you so much for getting back with your reply. Reports like yours are of a great benefit here with what is being attempted....Jeff

richard

#102
 steelfish..PacRat...Rivverrat...

 My reels are the "second generation" with the extra bearing but plastic star (replaced)
There is very little in and out play in the handle which helps the ratchet system stay in line ,with max surface area on dogs.
I wish they were like "normal" PENNS with very little gap between undergear and bridge to keep AR dogs straight.
I think the thicker AR dogs..as suggested..would do the job best ,as they would be less likely to bend the posts.
If my posts ever look like bending, I might be tempted to make up a sort of kidney shaped washer with a hole at each end to slip over
the AR studs with a press fit.(or that metal glue stuff)
It could be about 1mm thick and would add much needed support to the posts as well as lifting the "standard" dogs in line with the ratchet.
Not the real answer,but a simple cheap retro fit part you could slip in during a service.What do you guys think?

Rivverrat

Richard, your bringing some great information to the table. I wanted to clarify... when setting your drag at 25 lbs. are you measuring it with scales ? Wanted to be sure about this...Jeff

jurelometer

Quote from: richard on May 24, 2016, 12:04:57 PM

steelfish..PacRat...Rivverrat...

  My reels are the "second generation" with the extra bearing but plastic star (replaced)
There is very little in and out play in the handle which helps the ratchet system stay in line ,with max surface area on dogs.
I wish they were like "normal" PENNS with very little gap between undergear and bridge to keep AR dogs straight.
I think the thicker AR dogs..as suggested..would do the job best ,as they would be less likely to bend the posts.
If my posts ever look like bending, I might be tempted to make up a sort of kidney shaped washer with a whole at each end to slip over
the AR studs with a press fit.(or that metal glue stuff)
It could be about 1mm thick and would add much needed support to the posts as well as lifting the "standard" dogs in line with the ratchet.
Not the real answer,but a simple cheap retro fit part you could slip in during a service.What do you guys think?

Hi Richard,

The posts are under quite a bit of force (435 lbs by my calculation, but still being debated).  It seems unlikely that any solution involving glue is going to add much strength.  Once the dog post holes have any serious deformation, it is probably too late as well.   Anything that helps hold the dog flat is a probably a good idea.

The question is how much upgrading is the right amount?   A more robust solution may be overkill, but it will get the job done with less testing and design iterations.   Plus many of the folks here would probably prefer an extra strong upgrade, even if a lesser upgrade might  usually get the job done.  We are lucky that there are some very talented machinists  here like Tom willing to take this past discussion to design and make actual upgrades.

Regarding your dog modification:
The fact that at least one reel has avoided the problem so far by sharing  the dog load is a good sign, and provides more useful data.   No matter how accurate the filing, trying to equally distribute the load on the dogs is impossible.  One will always contact before the other and will have to create some deformation somewhere before the second will start sharing load.   The softer dogs might actually be a benefit here, sort of wearing into load share. I would wager that you are probably getting more of a 70/30 as opposed to a 50/50 split.  Also, if the wearing in to get dog load sharing is due to some(currently not visible) post hole deformation, you may just be buying time. Still not a bad thing.   Perhaps your modification could be  an option for folks to consider trying if they don't want to go the full upgrade route?  It would be nice to get a larger sample size before getting too confident.


Thanks again to you, Riverrrat and all the others posting their observations and experiences!