Shimano Saragosa 10000SW

Started by handi2, February 25, 2017, 10:49:51 PM

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handi2

This is a reel that was getting stiff to reel. It's only 2 years old. These are great strong reels for offshore fishing.

The owner didn't tell me it took a trip underwater until I was finished. He kept turning the reel when it was stiff and ruined the gears.

Have a look see...
OCD Reel Service & Repair
Gulf Breeze, FL

handi2

This shows his other one in like new condition.
OCD Reel Service & Repair
Gulf Breeze, FL

exp2000

Hi Keith,

Well that one is a write off. Shame to see a nice reel like this destroyed. How long do you suppose it was underwater?

I could understand how this could happen with something like a V series Spinfisher which have a gasket in the body and a hole in the top which is why I call them waterbottles :)

But the SW is well sealed from stem to stern so I would be surprised if this could happen just from a casual dunking.

Did it go to the bottom and get retrieved again?
~

Wolli

its the result of long time without any service....

last week received a SRG18000F for service and the roller clutch looks same.
Hope Shimano Europe ist able to deliver replacement.
love jigging    www.jupiter-sunrise-lodge.com/de/
Authorized Jigging Master Service Partner (in Germany)

MarkT

When I was your age Pluto was a planet!

Jeri

Hi All,

In our local surf fishery, which is admittedly very tough on tackle, especially reels; we have recently seen a huge changeover to casting with braid on fixed spool reels. The pictures above unfortunately are a pretty common sight.

Locally the popularity of the Saragosa, Spheros reels and others was based on the 'waterproof' hype that was pushed out with the advertising, and the fact that we do at competition level wade into the sea and fight fish with the reel at times underwater. The result is a lot of reels ending up like the ones above. The term 'waterbottle' was the first time I heard this, but it made me smile, as it truly describes what these reels are - the shaft seals fail abd then the gaskets and seals on the gearbox work, making them a fine 'waterbottle'. However the real problem is the use of soft metals in the gears in the 'gearbox', which just corrode at will.

We see the same problem with the latest incarnation of the Penn Slammer, which only has a slightly better reputation as the main and pinion gears are brass alloy, but all the reciprocating gears are soft metal.

One of the few makes that we have seen to take a differentroute to this problem is the Quantum Cabo, they avoid all the wasted time building multilayer seals, just build with a majority of stainless or brass components, but then add a drain screw at the rear of the reel. If the reel gets a dunking, just drain out the sea water and pump in some more grease. I personally think this is a more realistic solution to the obvious problem.

Have been using some of the Quantum Cabos in various sizes for over 3 years now, and now issues, apart from the odd bit of corrosion on some of the external bearings - like under the line roller. Even with the fact that on some of the smaller sizes, the main gear isn't stainless steel. This concept of letting the water out rather than creating a 'waterbottle' seems by far better in the long term.

Had one client that bought a Cabo 120, used it extensively in the surf for a couple of months, underwater as well as on the sand. Forgot to drain the reel, and took it inland to a very dry and hot environment. I goy the reel a month later when it was 'a bit stiff'. Took it apart, cleaned out the factory grease that had failed, cleaned everything and rebuilt - almost as good as new.

Taking fixed spool reels to the sea is not a problem, but manufactyrers need to appreciate that salt water WILL get inside, and design accordingly. All our multiplier designs have specific drain facilities and internal components of brass or stainless - why should we suffer anything less from our fixed spool reels??

Just my 2 cents worth.

Cheers from sunny Africa

Jeri

exp2000

Hi Jeri,

Are any of these reels meant to be submerged on a regular basis or even at all?

Surely the Shimano never suggested this in their advertising?

Do you reckon that water borne sand particles contribute to seal breaches?

Got some pics of a chemically welded slammer-III?
~

Jeri

Hi,

The general literature that is used in advertising these products over here, leads folks to believe that they are water proof, and up to the task of being used in our fisheries; and promoted in that usage. What in laymans terms is the difference between water tight, waterproof and submerged??

The local agents of Penn, Diawa and Shimano are all very cognisant of how we fish both at social fishing level and full competition level, so perhaps they are really the culprits here. with the wording of the publicity material. Penn Slammer III, even has an IP code printed in bold on the spool, but then just how many of the anglers likely to come across this coding will actually understand it, or do the research to see exactly what it means?

The point perhaps is to offer products that are 'fit for purpose', or at least have a caveat that makes it clear that they are not to be submerged in typical local fishing styles. That would perhaps be the responsibility of the manufacturer or the local distributing agent - or am I being overly hopeful?

The sand and silt content is a possible contributor, but even Van Staal who do make waterproof reels vitually insist on reels being returned to the factory annually for replacement seals. As an engineer, I would think that any hard working fixed spool is going to wear shaft seals, the sand and silt will only add to the problems.

The Slammer that I recently had to overhaul hadn't yet got to the point of doing critical damage to the softer metal gears, but the grease had certainly lost any protection values.

I just think locally we are going to have to come to terms that our fishery doesn't play nicely with fixed spool reels, and we are all going to have to adopt a much more frequent interval to service plans - using until ' it gets stiff' perhaps is going to be an expensive exercise.

Cheers from sunny Africa

Jeri


Cor

#8
Yeh, just to follow in to what Jerry is saying.

Just yesterday I was driving past a beach resort 40km from here at low tide and saw two guys wade out to a distant rock, with the one just dunking his overhead reel in to the ocean without any consideration.   They were still in shallow water but had no concern for the reel. When I wade occasionally, I take a sturdy stick with me to feel the bottom and assist in balancing myself, I saw the one guy using his rod in that fashion!!   I am well aware of how these guys fish, but still shudder to see it.    I don't have much experience with Spinning reels, but somehow think that simple overhead reels will stand up to that kind of treatment better then Spinners as they have less working parts.

For years the strategy was to rinse the reel in fresh water when they get home and unless it is taken to the sea again within a day or two, it gets opened and completely cleaned and lubricated.   You should see the amount of sand inside the reels.    It has happened to me by accident a few times.

Reels are expendable and if you have resources you buy new or fix, when they no longer work properly.     Tackle has become much more expensive of late, so perhaps it will force some guys to take more care.

Luckily my kind of fishing does not require me to get my tackle under the ocean.

Jeri, in Cape Town we've also seen a huge increase in spinning reels to the point where they probably outnumber conventionals now from zero, 10 years ago.
Cornelis

johndtuttle

#9
Neither Shimano or Penn rate their reels for complete submersion.

Penn and the "IPX6" (ingress protection) is a legit engineering standard for very good protection from water **spray**.

The next higher rating "IPX7" rates (anything) for submersion up to 1 meter for 30 minutes. Dunno if a VS even meets this standard after a year or more of use with worn seals.

The trouble is, guys want something for nothing, and don't want to step up to Van Staal level of sealing (very stiff reel) and service requirements (new seals every year) but want "smooth" because it convinces them they are buying quality.

Everyone with real understanding of the issues knows that the ultimate surf reel would be all SS with an "open" nature for easy drainage and re-greasing and use bushings in key places ie a Penn 704Z made out of all stainless and using bushings.

And it is a poor seller, even though everyone knows it is the best choice and still is the reel that can still be kept alive the longest for the least cost in the surf environment.

Understanding why it isn't more popular and you will grasp that most fisherman fish a lifetime and don't realize it is not fish that they are after, its an image of themselves they are trying to catch. Outdoor gear makers spend their time thinking about how people think of themselves, and make products to match, not what people need to catch a fish. "Look at me I am sporty young guy using technological miracles to save effort and slay...an 18" keeper for dinner...go Shimano..."



@Handi2 these images should be posted at SOL but I won't do it without your permission, just to see the heads explode :D.

Cor

Quote from: johndtuttle on February 26, 2017, 05:38:04 PM
Neither Shimano or Penn rate their reels for complete submersion.
I don't think anyone can realistically expect them to.    Personally in my book very little is sea water proof and nothing is submersion proof unless designed for that purpose and manufactured to very exact tolerances.    The guys that are dunking their tackle know very well what the consequence are.

Penn and the "IPX6" (ingress protection) is a legit engineering standard for very good protection from water **spray**.

The next higher rating "IPX7" rates (anything) for submersion up to 1 meter for 30 minutes. Dunno if a VS even meets this standard after a year or more of use with worn seals.

The trouble is, guys want something for nothing, and don't want to step up to Van Staal level of sealing (very stiff reel) and service requirements (new seals every year) but want "smooth" because it convinces them they are buying quality.

Everyone with real understanding of the issues knows that the ultimate surf reel would be all SS with an "open" nature for easy drainage and re-greasing and use bushings in key places ie a Penn 704Z.

And it is a poor seller, even though everyone knows it is the best choice and still is the reel that can still be kept alive the longest for the least cost in the surf environment.

Understanding why it isn't more popular and you will grasp that most fisherman fish a lifetime and don't realize it is not fish that they are after, its an image of themselves they are trying to catch. Outdoor gear makers spend their time thinking about how people think of themselves, and make products to match, not what people need to catch a fish. "Look at me I am sporty young guy using technological miracles to save effort and slay...an 18" keeper for dinner...go Shimano..."

LOL......Probably applies a little less in South Africa and Namibia then in some other countries where image is everything.    Durability and cast ability rate very high here.


@Handi2 these images should be posted at SOL but I won't do it without your permission, just to see the heads explode :D.

Cornelis

Jeri

Hi All,

A couple of quotes from a reputable sales outlet. On the Saragossa 10000SW:

The Saragosa 10000SW is designed and built for the demands of all saltwater game anglers so it is well up to the heavy tasks likely to be asked of it by UK anglers.
It can be used for heavy jigging from both boat and shore, uptide casting from the boat or overseas lure fishing. Packed with the best Shimano features including X-ship and HD gear, the Saragosa SW also features X-shield waterproof body and drag to protect it from the harsh saltwater environment.


Same site for the Slammer III:

The Penn Slammer III is a true saltwater fixed spool reel. The fully sealed body keeps water, salt and sand out of the reel and allows it to perform to the max no matter what the conditions
The sealed 'Slammer' Dura Drag system packs up to 40lb of pressure allowing you to tame the biggest of fish. As the Slammer is designed for blue water fishing there should be no fish in the UK which the Slammer cannot handle and you can also take it on foreign trips confident that it will be up to the task.



The point is not perhaps what the official web sites say, but those actually selling the reels to the general public. There is obviously always the caveat of 'buyer beware', but for those of a less than inquisitive nature, or less cynical; there is a potential for huge problems. The shop will sell the product with these inflated preformance charateristics, and then refer folsk to the official Shimaon or Penn web site to might get a different picture or???

Shimano Europe:

The Saragosa SW comes in a wide range of sizes from 5000 up to a massive 25000 to suit the demands of all saltwater game anglers. The smaller sizes are perfect for casting, spinning and jigging whilst the 20000 and 25000 sizes, with their rigid support cross carbon drags are perfect for large bluewater game fish like tuna. Packed with the best Shimano features including X-ship and HD gear, the Saragosa SW also features X-shield waterproof body and drag to protect it from the harsh saltwater environment.

Or Shimano South Africa:

Introducing the new Shimano Saragosa SW Spinning Reels! Shimano took several of the most technologically advanced features from the Stella SWB and put them in the Saragosa. The new Shimano Saragosa SWB is now more powerful, smoother, more rigid, and has a much better drag system. Saragosa SW Spinning Reels are also water tight. Shimano has placed seals around the reel to keep water and salt out. It is not dunkable but it can take being splashed while fishing on the boat for big fish!

Shimano Saragosa SW Spinning Reels were designed for catching big saltwater fish. Whether you are fishing from the boat for tarpon, or tuna, or fishing from the beach for big stripers, the Shimano Saragosa SW Spinning Reels will deliver the power and performance to reel in those fish.



So, at the end of the day, even visiting official web sites, the general public can end up confused. Ultimately, the likes of Shimano, Penn, Diawa and others need to get honest with their buying public, for having reviewed a good number of adverts in the paper press from these three companies, they say just about everything to imply that the product is waterproof, but never quite say that. Then there might well be the discussion on whether waterproof means submersible.

We are back to the 1960 with 'waterproof' watches that you couldn't take into the shower!!!

Cheers from sunny Africa

Jeri