Boca Bearings? What's your take?

[MarkT]

What? You have moss on the ground in West Texas? Some special kind that grows in the semi-desert? No wonder you didn't get busted up worse than you did!  I have cousins in Abilene and Houston (Friendswood).  They grew up in Midland. I recall Pecan trees in their yard in Midland but no moss. Okay, joking aside you're lucky to have not hurt yourself much worse.

[Jim Dempsey]

Nah; I was in Idaho. I actually live about 50 miles west of Abilene, though.

[alantani]

yeesh!  i'm staying off ladders for a while!   

[Yogi_fish808]

Glad to hear you're ok!

Here's my take on Boca Abec 7's vs standard Stainless Abec 5's. I personally don't purchase the orange seal abec 7's for my personal reels, after a lot of time spent distance casting and comparing both the difference is negligible. I appreciate that there are known beneficial qualities to ceramic hybrid bearings but for my purposes, the return on investment of the extra cost isn't worth it. I flush all my (and customers) bearings out with IRC Brakleen and an RC-Car "Bearing Blaster", then apply 1 drop of our tried and tested Tsi 321. On my reels a dry or lubed Abec 7 will cast the same distance as a clean tsi 321 lubed Abec 5. I'm not a tournament caster but even with a heavy set up like a Penn 113hlw or Newell 550 on a 13-14' custom surf rod and 9-10oz weight I'm reaching 100+ yards with abec 5 stainless. On my Abu 7000 BY its easily 180 yards throwing 5oz on stock bearings.

Here's a video I recorded a while ago of a reel that surprised me. A Newell No-Letter 550 that has maintained a ~4:30 freespool time using used abec 5 stainless bearings which I flushed and lubed. Granted the large mass of the wide aluminum spool+line does make a big difference in freespool time but it's still a great example of how well Abec 5 stainless bearings can perform on the bench.

In the field the reel casts the same distance as similar reels I have, using the same effort/technique the lead will fall to the earth at the same rate under the pull of gravity. Extreme freespool speeds are null when you need to control the rate the spool spins to how much line is being pulled out by the travelling weight. I think with smaller abu baitcast reels with light spools you may notice a difference but for larger conventional reels where spools have a lot of mass that maintain momentum it's less noticeable. I'd still like to see your results though!

Aloha,
Kyle

[Cor]

Wow, that reel never stops!   I had to stop the video....LOL

[Tiddlerbasher]

Kyle - pretty much my findings - I've got to the point where I can't justify the cost of higher cost bearings. I'm now thinking of building a jig that simulates a fishing reel (in terms of typical free spool time) eg a spool shaped whatever with a multi stepped shaft that can accommodate various bearing sizes. A jig can give you (should give you ) repeatable results that can be fairly compared one bearing to another.
The lifespan of a bearing is another matter A life test jig
To get consistency a means of initially starting the spool needs to be nailed - I havn't got that part - Yet But I'm thinking on it

[Jim Dempsey]

yeesh!  i'm staying off ladders for a while!   

It ain't the ladder; it's the Indian. When you sacrifice quality for quantity; quality suffers. In this case; it's the quality of life. I knowlongly allowed my company to overbook my work schedule. Sometimes; you just have to prove them wrong, but that's not my work ethic. I was single-minded in purpose. I was counting minutes; now I'm counting dollars. And... minutes of sleep - when able.

Thanks, Alan.

Back to bearings...

[Jim Dempsey]

Yogi,

I thought that was a prank for a little bit! Wow! The real meat and potatoes was in what you wrote. I've gotten a number of PM's and posts questioning the ABEC rating system. With good cause. My company spent a fortune to become ISO and ANSI ranked; but the bottom line is; I never saw an inspector(s) check anything. We hired a QC staff at a huge salary to tell them that we are in compliance - subject to audit. So; if I were so inclined; I could do the crappiest job of QC'ing circuit boards, and calibrating our equipment, and no one would be any more the wise - UNLESS - one of their inspectors showed up unannounced and caught me in non-compliance. We have always been so hardcore quality, that their standards are nothing more than time consuming (paperwork) - and a step backwards compared to how we tested. Every piece of equipment I use, and every calibration I perform is NIST traceable (Nukes are not toys, young man!). Never heard of any company having their rating yanked.

I've gotten more opinions on bearing standards than I have skin left on my arms. The nearly universal bottom line is: most of the opinions heavily favor Japanese bearings for quality and consistency. Based on my knowledge of their products; I tend to favor that opinion - until I verify it through testing. ABEC is just ONE standard, and obviously not universally consistent. Complicate that with the fact that any manufacturer can claim anything. Ditto resellers.

I committed to these tests for Boca, and I know they aren't going to be forensically accurate. But; based on an average cast - without splitting microns - I'm going to get somewhere close to the truth. Fishing is an art; not a science. My only interest is that I've been deluged with videos / op-ed's from other sites, etc. that boast the merits of Boca bearings using nothing more than an empty, free spinning spool as the standard. {Cough!} If they blow the socks out of the water - or even justify the extra cost; I'll sing their praises from the top of the mountain like others. However; if my findings are similar to what you proffered, I'm throwing the yellow flag.

Not touting my reputation (much), but in nearly 20 years as a death investigator (retired); I had to recreate a number of scenarios and never lied or embellished once on the witness stand. Same holds true here. What you see is what you get.

Looking forward to getting back in the mix and conducting these tests. Engaged a new videographer Friday.  

[Yogi_fish808]

The video of my reel is definitely not a prank but it is exceptional to the norm. ~1.5-2 minutes what I aim for with freespool times.....+4:30 while all treatment consistent is very unusual. For some reason the balance/alignment with that particular custom built reel is perfect and freespools over twice as long as most of reels I build/service for customers or myself. Keep in mind, it's not just bearings that affect freespool time in a complete reel, the biggest friction point is the stainless spool shaft passing through the pinion gear. Alan and the other members here have extensively covered how achieve the best freespool by polishing friction points and using the best products.

Aloha,
Kyle

[Jim Dempsey]

Thanks, Kyle. I posted a similar thread about a noisy 10000i that I thought was a levelwind issue. It was a salvage reel in horrible condition that I spent in excess of what it was worth just for the experience.

The bottom line was; I polished the inside of the pinion gear to a reflective finish - ditto the shaft - and it literally cast 700+' (fairly close guestimation) further without the noise. Also added a 5mm wide bearing, as opposed to the stock 4mm, since I had the room. Much more stable feeling; much smoother action.

Tastes great; less filling...

[oc1]

Kyle, I was going to suggest that a balanced spool and good alignment may contribute as much or more than the bearings. Then I watched the last two or three revolutions of your Newell with the phenomenal free spool just before it stopped.  The spool speeds up a little and then slows down a little indicating that the spool is not completely balanced.  It could be something as simple as the line lay or tape throwing it off balance.  I have some reels where the spool will rock backward a bit just as it stops indicating a lot of imbalance.  Your 4.5 minutes of free spool suggest that balance may not be the silver bullet I thought it was.

Tiddler, somewhere I saw a video where the person got the spool spinning by holding a spinning rubber wheel on a drill motor against the naked spool.  Since the drill motor speed is known, and hoping that the rubber wheel makes good contact and gets the spool spinning as fast as the drill motor, it may provide a way of getting a consistent start up speed for testing.  You could probably do the same thing to spin a ball bearing on a stick.  Personally, I wind three feet of coarse twine on the spool as though it were a kids toy top.  Then yank the twine off to get it spinning really fast.  I worry about damaging something by pulling too hard though.  Maybe there's a quasi-terminal velocity, but I don't know.  

Kayle, getting that pesky pinion off the spool shaft sure is important.  There have been a couple of "super free" designs where the pinion is precisely supported so it can never touch the spool shaft during the cast.  It is a trendy thing with state-of-the-art Shimanos (and perhaps others I don't know about).  But, the oldest version of super free I've seen is on a old Penn Seagate from the 1940's.  The Seagate head plate bushing is a fairly long tube; maybe a half-inch long.  When the pinion is disengaged by the yoke, it is pulled up on the bushing tube so it cannot touch the spool shaft.  The only contact points are the journals and bushing.  
-steve

[exp2000]

Kayle, getting that pesky pinion off the spool shaft sure is important.  There have been a couple of "super free" designs where the pinion is precisely supported so it can never touch the spool shaft during the cast.  It is a trendy thing with state-of-the-art Shimanos (and perhaps others I don't know about).  But, the oldest version of super free I've seen is on a old Penn Seagate from the 1940's.  The Seagate head plate bushing is a fairly long tube; maybe a half-inch long.  When the pinion is disengaged by the yoke, it is pulled up on the bushing tube so it cannot touch the spool shaft.  The only contact points are the journals and bushing.  
-steve

This design is known as a fully floating pinion where the ends are supported by bearings or other so as not to rely on support from the spool shaft eg. Curado I series etc.

Daiwa's Luna is the ultimate refinement of this design where the spool is also supported at it's immediate ends by bearings so any extension of the spool shaft becomes obsolete and alignment is achieved entirely by bearings.
~

[Tiddlerbasher]

Steve -I was thinking along the same lines - spin a rubber wheel against the spool. I'm just trying to conjure a way to make it automatic so all I have to do is time it. That would take care of free spool comparisons. Then there is the subjective test of 'smoothness'. And finally a life test jig, a salt water dunking test, load bearing analysis etc

Actually I think I will go back to my original way of selecting bearings. Except for a couple exceptions I would by a batch of cheap 'Abec5' Stainless bearings - select the best spinning/smoothest and ditch the rest

[Cor]

I have followed this thread fairly carefully, some more observations and comments:-

1.   this thread has grown to 6 pages in  one week, shows the interest in this topic!
2.   I have never seen reels as precision instruments and think that is the sentiment here as well.   Perhaps if they were, they would not be suitable for fishing.
3.   In my search for quality bearings at a fair price I bought bearings at a variety of places over the years and also learned that Japanese bearings are considered to be of very high quality.
4.   I also tried balancing my spool in an bit amateurish fashion.   I concluded that either it has no consequence, or my way of doing it was useless, or that the effect of the line was much greater than any adjusting I could accomplish.
5.   I often thought about quality standards and how bearings  are manufactured to produce bearings of a certain standard.   I then wondered if they are not simply manufactured and then tested afterwards and sorted according to the test outcomes, similar to what some are suggesting here that they do?
6.   Some reels simply spin and/or cast better then others and not only does a "free floating pinion" play a roll.   One of my favourite reels has one bearing and one bush on the spool and casts rather well like that.    I then decided to improve it's cast by replacing the bush with a bearing.    It made little or no difference!
7.   I have two Penn Fathoms FTH25N, they should be very good casting reels, but my experience has been otherwise.

I am now patiently waiting to see the test results

[exp2000]

A belated video : How Ball Bearings are Made.



Stringent quality control checks are just one of the factors that make a big difference between Japanese and Chinese bearings.
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