Boca Bearings? What's your take?

Started by Jim Dempsey, October 23, 2017, 02:07:00 AM

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Gfish

#90
Great topic. Interesting read. Still thinkin about maintenance. Seems that a bushing with the same type a maintenance (and maintenance schedule) would be the better choice for conventional/baitcaster reels. Bearings are more complicated to maintain, expensive and delicate. How much spool speed is needed? Lota-physics-type a factors in casting terminal tackle, without a gettin a backlash. The limiting factor is gonna be terminal tackle speed, relative to spool speed. All said n' done, for me n' my reels with bearings, the most important thing would be the durability factor.
Gfish
Fishing tackle is an art form and all fish caught on the right tackle are"Gfish"!

Tiddlerbasher

Jim - referring  to an earlier point of yours about ISO9000 accreditation. I remember (rather fondly actually) the days of Quality Control as opposed to today's Quality Assurance type regimes. I used to tour various factories and check their production (using batch sampling techniques on the larger quantities). If the batch was rejected it would have to be re-worked (if that were possible).
Shift forward (post 1987 iirc) ISO9000 was first published. Quality control from a purchasing angle had all but gone. Quality Assurance had arrived. For those who have never been involved in these systems I will try and paraphrase: This is from a purchasing angle rather than production. You don't check/measure the quality (which here means fitness for purpose). Because the company has been accredited it is 'assumed' the goods are o.k. That is their systems, paper work trail, have been validated therefore the goods must be to specification :-\. This removes the onus on large organizations to have large Quality Control Inspection Teams. Instead the production company must do all the work.

I went through the accreditation process with a couple of organizations. Nothing but 'systems' and the paper trail were ever inspected. Thinking of paper, I believe there was a 'procedure' for wiping your backside :D

Jim Dempsey

Quote from: exp2000 on October 29, 2017, 01:59:26 PM
A belated video : How Ball Bearings are Made.



Stringent quality control checks are just one of the factors that make a big difference between Japanese and Chinese bearings.
~

Fascinating video. Thanks. I was curious how they did that. Even more curious about ceramics.

Jim Dempsey

Quote from: Tiddlerbasher on October 29, 2017, 03:58:37 PM
Jim - referring  to an earlier point of yours about ISO9000 accreditation. I remember (rather fondly actually) the days of Quality Control as opposed to today's Quality Assurance type regimes. I used to tour various factories and check their production (using batch sampling techniques on the larger quantities). If the batch was rejected it would have to be re-worked (if that were possible).
Shift forward (post 1987 iirc) ISO9000 was first published. Quality control from a purchasing angle had all but gone. Quality Assurance had arrived. For those who have never been involved in these systems I will try and paraphrase: This is from a purchasing angle rather than production. You don't check/measure the quality (which here means fitness for purpose). Because the company has been accredited it is 'assumed' the goods are o.k. That is their systems, paper work trail, have been validated therefore the goods must be to specification :-\. This removes the onus on large organizations to have large Quality Control Inspection Teams. Instead the production company must do all the work.

I went through the accreditation process with a couple of organizations. Nothing but 'systems' and the paper trail were ever inspected. Thinking of paper, I believe there was a 'procedure' for wiping your backside :D

What I find problematic is that we have checkout procedures printed and are required to have them on the lab bench in front of us when testing or calibrating. However; the procedures / values have changed as new revisions have emerged. The checkout procedures have not been updated to reflect the new information. We are not allowed to write notes on the checkout procedures reflecting the changes. So; as long as we have the outdated check list on the bench in front of us; we are in compliance. Grrr!

MarkT

ISO9000 isn't about providing quality products, it's about quality documentation for auditors. Welcome to management by audit. I noticed that there are 10 times more companies in China with ISO9000 certification than there are in the US. The 2nd highest level of certification is Italy.
When I was your age Pluto was a planet!

oc1

I noticed in the video that the only check of the completed product is to weigh them. 

When something is messed up the cause is likely to be the cage rather than the race or the balls.

ABU went through the whole bushings versus ball bearings thing.  I believe that was 1970's.  The story is that they could not find a difference in performance but ball bearings were a great marketing angle.  Penn made the expensive Squidder with ball bearings but the much less expensive Surfmaster had bushings.  Many claimed the Surfmaster worked just as well.

One thing I notice is that an emulsion of grease or oil and water really slows down a ball bearing.  The ball bearing is pretty good at whipping up a batch of emulsion if a drop of water ever contacts the lubrication.  It's like making mayonnaise.  You can feel it happening during repetitive casting.  Things go along fine until that drop of water hits the bearing and then it all turns to crap.  Ceramic bearings run dry (without lubrication) do not whip up emulsion if they get wet.  They seem to just fling the water away.  Ceramic bearings run dry are notoriously noisy.  They quiet down considerably if they get wet but there is no loss of performance.

The same sort of emulsion is formed around bushings but it is not nearly as bad.  I do not know if it is because bushings have less contact surface or if it is because they do not whip up emulsion as well, or if it is because there is no place for the emulsion to reside so it is flung away.

I used to obsess and fuss a lot about ball bearings.  But it's been a while now since I used a reel that even has ball bearings.  Can't say that I miss the cussed things.
-steve

Tiddlerbasher

Jim, Mark, Steve - welcome to the so called "real" not reel , World. As a retired engineer I get frustrated. Very frustrated. Did I mention I GET FRUSTRATED. Sorry I'll go to my quite room now - yeah but not for long ;D

It's the world in which we live - we don't get much of a choice.


Jim Dempsey

Guys; Honestly, I should have done more research before I opened this thread. I should have joined the forum before I did. There just didn't seem to be anything but good or bad to say about the benefits of ceramic bearings. Like everyone else; I want that "edge", too. I HAVE opened a can of worms that's spiraled out of control. My bad. I did most of the footwork by straying off topic, and thinking out loud.

So; I'll do the testing when I'm able and publish the results. I appreciate all of the opinions, comments, and experiences. It's given me more to think about than I ever imagined.

Thanks.

Gfish

#98
Quote from: MarkT on October 29, 2017, 05:22:48 PM
ISO9000 isn't about providing quality products, it's about quality documentation for auditors. Welcome to management by audit. I noticed that there are 10 times more companies in China with ISO9000 certification than there are in the US. The 2nd highest level of certification is Italy.

X2. Worked for American co. Merged into Sanyo(Japanese), with Iso9001 cert. My trainer had me fillin out the relevant paperwork/checklist, before I even started the actual work. Important stuff to do in the right sequence given that it was a "clean-room" environment and the price that our products sold for. It was, what they call a "paper-work culture". Only bad thing for us was OUR signature that we put at the bottom a the form.
Gfish
Fishing tackle is an art form and all fish caught on the right tackle are"Gfish"!

Jim Dempsey

Sorry everyone. Nothing new. I'd have thought I'd be able to attempt this by now; but it's looking like another week. Sorry. Getting old stinks, when you need to recover quickly.

Bruce

 Try not to be too impatient ,you will get better and improve . Similar  happened to me 10 years ago when I was 70 and it just takes a bit of time , maybe 2-3 years .
G fish  I certainly agree , in real world of reels I have two inexpensive   That are favorites for casting and fishing  Penn 60 and ABU 4600CB and require less maintenance to maintain performance .
Having said that I do use some ball bearing reels 2 Morrums,  Shimano100EX , Squidders ,Senators , both type Jigmasters  but for fishing they are not really any better .
One of the smoothest bench grinders I ever had was an old oil cup bushing grinder , massive for the rated HP ,and great inertia . I am sorry I replaced with a Baldor .
Of course I love the better stuff but it does not fish any better.
What is better than a pair of  Levi blue jeans .
   Bruce




Buzz

fishhawk

Jim, I have not bought boca's yet but have bought a few hybrid ceramic bearing's.  The 1st and second batch I purchased did not impress me, but I found another supplier on fleabay that had orange seal abec 7 hybrid's ( 1/2 price of boca's) and he said he tested each bearing and engraved them an they are really sweet! They make a big difference! So if you get good bearings they are definitely better.
Also some reel models perform better than others w/ ceramics, for instance, my abu's w/ bearing in spool perform better than older abu's w/ bearings on the end of the spool shaft.
Mark

conchydong

I am not a reel head as many of you are but I live very close to Boca Bearings and have purchased directly form them in their warehouse. They are not a manufacturer as far as I know but just a distributor and source their bearings from all over the world. I believe that they do try to provide a good amount of quality control as much as realistically possible.

When I went there, even though my purchase was relatively small, they rolled out the red carpet for me when I told them I was a member of the Alan Tani site. I got my bearings and they gave me a mouse pad, a ball cap and some other goodies which were probably worth as much as my purchase.
My impression was that they respected Alan a lot and valued the members of this site as customers.

I am not affiliated with them and I know that other retailers like Dawn at Smooth Drag also put out great products but I believe that Boca does a decent job at trying to deliver a good bearing at a competitive price. As far as what type of bearing is best for reels, well we all have our opinions and use reels in a different manner.

Scott

Scott

fogbound

Interesting thread,but I regret jumpin' down the rabbit hole.Coulda stopped when the op went from 120 to 900 feet with a little alcohol n' polish.

Jim Dempsey

#104
So; it's been a while, but I haven't forgotten about this project. A few things have changed: I hacked up a wad of money for a nice 4K Sony FDR-X3000R/W camera with every bell and whistle to film the tests myself. I bit off more than I could chew on that. It's way better than any of the GoPro's but much more complicated.

Secondly; the weather here has been the pits this Winter. This Spring isn't much better. It's windy out here; but you usually have SOME time when it's not like being in a NASA wind tunnel. Not this Spring! That's a real deal breaker.

A word of caution: I decided to try HPR bearings on eBay since they were a little less expensive, and they actually had better feedback than Boca. BIG mistake. They were arrogant, unhelpful, and most importantly; their bearings were crap. Maybe I got a bad set. Dunno. They still haven't refunded my money after 2 weeks, and kept trying to convince me that I was doing something wrong. I installed a full set on one my 4th  Revo MGXtreme, and it sounded like a dump truck trying to crank on a cold Winter morning. Virtually no difference in performance. Actually; it performed so poorly; I didn't spend much time going any further. This was a brand new reel out of the box. Put the stock bearings back in, and I'm a happy camper until I place another order.

I truly didn't think there was a way to improve the MGXtreme, but after a little Maker's Mark courage; decided to install a complete set that I'd purchased for my last STX. Wow! was I wrong! That sucker sails like a missile. Quiet as a mouse, and depending on how you adjust it; it works perfectly for pitching, flipping, or extra long casts - without bird nesting it! It's absolutely perfect. I'm no expert, but I can cast it like a scalpel.

I'm still going to do as I said - when the weather is a little more cooperative. My opinion at this point is: Yeah; they make a difference, but depending on the engineering of the reel; you may see a little difference up to a huge difference. Your mileage may vary. And; in complete agreement with others who've commented; the reels that I fine tune by polishing the friction surfaces AND add bearings are remarkable. Lubrication in the right amount and viscosity is also a big determining factor. Not to sound ambivalent; but it would appear that there's a good bit of truth to what most everyone has said. A matter of preference? How extreme do you want to go. I have 1 STX and 1 MGXtreme that I've done everything that I've ever seen or heard of doing to a reel to increase performance. You better have a fast thumb!

As to lubrication? I used the Cal's tan grease for gears and drag washers - applied with a camel hair artists brush. And just enough to get the job done. I diluted TSI321 with 50% (99%) Isopropyl alcohol for the bearings and spool shafts. I used a little under a drop for each bearing. Spun them up for about 15-20 seconds at a reasonable speed, and let them dry overnight. Reinstalled them, and voila! No perceived increase in noise with the ceramics, either. Unless you're a bat.

I'm sure I'll think of something else to try to put into the equation during the process; but for now; that's my story and I'm stickin' to it.