alan tani @ alantani.com fishing reel repair rebuild tutorial Penn 113H and 501 High Speed Gear Upgrade Help
Reel Repair by Alan Tani
December 16, 2017, 04:49:14 AM *
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Author Topic: Penn 113H and 501 High Speed Gear Upgrade Help  (Read 270 times)
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nobalance
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« on: December 07, 2017, 01:07:01 AM »

Hey all -

First post, so let me say WHAT A SITE!  So stoked on this, thanks Alan and everyone for this repository.  

History, story time (skip below if you want the point) - I have always been into cleaning, maintaining my own reels since I was a kid and had no money for anything else.  My first swap meet 4/0 was a serious prize.  When I first saw the AccuFrame and Tiburon frame kits, I wanted one SOOO bad.  But I was maybe 14 and that wasn't gunna happen, but NOW - at 31, I finally went back to my roots and made it happen.  

Got myself a Tiburon narrow frame and spool for the 113H.

While I was upgrading I thought, I ought to up the gears and drags.  Thus, I bought the 5:1 gear kit for my 501 with a drag, and 4:1 gear kit (drag, washers, gear/pinion, SS dog, SS yoke) from smoothdrag.  But LO!  I install in the 113H with Tib frame/spool and it doesn't go so hot.  Not with the original frame/spool either.  Or the original yoke or drag washers or any other combination of parts.

The reel doesn't go in/out of free spool well.  It is rough sounding when cranking on it in gear and seems to be worse/less bad depending on the left to right tilt (roll angle) at which I hold the reel when cranking.

I tried adjusting the height of the tabs on the eccentric but that didn't help.

Thought I might have better luck with my stock 501, but not really.  Works a little better, but still rough and not a full free spool.  Cranking the handle in free creates a bit of turn on the spool.  Not fishable.

Any help is appreciated - I did try to search some of the other forums, but didn't find good answers.  What do I need to file, replace or otherwise?

Do I need to, or should I just bother to go to a full Stainless conversion of the 113H?  Looking to make it into the best Yellowtail Special I can muster.  I feel I am a somewhat typical west coast guy looks to fish reels out of their class.  (EG 40lb BFT on bass rod, Calcutta 400 and 12lb = warped reel, silly long fight and good eats. Grin)

THANKS!!!!!
« Last Edit: December 07, 2017, 01:15:51 AM by nobalance » Logged
Alto Mare
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« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2017, 03:39:18 AM »

I'm a little confused, you're mentioning two different reels, but it might be me, I'm Italian Grin.
Tiburon kits, as for tolerance, have been all over the place lately... well to me anyway.
First thing I would do is to check if the pinion slides on the spool shaft all the way with very little effort, Tiburon shafts run a little heavier on some.
On custom parts, depending on the kit you're using sometime I you'll need to fine tune many parts.
Not going in and out of gear at times would also help lowering the tabs on the eccentric Jack, but you need to do that correctly.
I use two heavy pieces of metal plates with a spacer in between on my press.
You could certainly do it by hand, but make sure both tabs are at the same height.
Also, when using stainless steel gears, it is a good idea to replace the yoke as well, stock flexes too much and  won't last long.

Let us know how you make out.

Sal
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Forget about all the reasons why something may not work. You only need to find one good reason why it will.
Swami805
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« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2017, 05:06:38 AM »

What Sal said, it does take some fine tuning, I had some of the same issues too. As for the grinding the stainless gears take some time to "break in " they smooth out after you've used them for a while.
Any adjustments like bending tabs do in small increments and test, then a bit more until it works. also try moving the spool over a little by adjusting the bearing/bushing caps or adding shims to move the spool over a bit. Maybe that might help.
It can try your patience for sure, but take your time.
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nobalance
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« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2017, 06:09:45 AM »

Sal -

I was indeed talking about two reel models.  I meant to illustrate that It wasn't just my 4/0, but the 501 also - so it seems, perhaps, to be more of an issue with the gear set tolerances on the whole.

Also, the 4/0 with the Tiburon frame/spool works just fine with the stock gearing.

I did replace the yoke for the 4/0 already.

I will check how the pinion fits, and keep playing with the eccentric jack tabs to see if it will go.  How would you recommend adjusting the fit of the pinion/spool shaft if needed?

Swami -

I have played with the non handle side bushing cap for no relief.  How do shims work here?

As far as break in, should I just crank the heck out of them until they wear into eachother?  Maybe do this "dry" without grease to speed it along?

 Huh? Huh? Huh?

Thanks!
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RowdyW
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« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2017, 06:32:09 AM »

Mods, I think this topic needs to be moved to the Penn section.  Huh? Huh?
« Last Edit: December 08, 2017, 06:32:43 AM by RowdyW » Logged
nobalance
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« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2017, 07:23:48 AM »

It was a smoothdrag pirchase so I posted here.  But please put wherever it is best.
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PacRat
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« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2017, 09:04:38 AM »

I concur with what the others have told you. These custom parts typically have tighter tolerances than the original OEM parts; therefore require some fitting but once you get it right (and broken in) you will be very happy with your efforts (and new hardware). An old machinist once told me that when removing material, go slow and take off only a little at a time. It's always easier to take a little more off than to try to put some back on. Very wise advice. File, sand, buff, etc...then test fit. Repeat as necessary until it's just right.

When assembling these reels I like to assemble the spool and frame without the gears and give her a good spin. Adjust the bearings as necessary. This will give you a good baseline for free-spool time. Later when you put it all together you will have something to compare it to when working the little bugs out of it.
 
Next; take the spool out and put in the main gear and drag washers without the pinion gear and yoke (AR dogs and spring are optional at this point). Give the handle a turn and it should turn free and easy. Make sure that you have tightened the drag somewhat. If the main gear assembly is dragging at all you need to figure out what's rubbing and where. It could be your main gear is to thick (highly unlikely) or your drag stack is too thick, out of order, or your eared washers are not sitting in the grooves properly. You might need to remove a little material from the inside of your plate where the main gear sits or use thinner (or less) washers. Once your handle turns freely you can go on to your pinion/yoke/jack.

Before assembling any further, do like Sal said and test fit the pinion gear on the spool shaft. It should slide smoothly back and forth and engage over the lug on your spool shaft. If that's all good; flip the pinion over backwards (so the lug won't engage) and give the pinion a spin. It should be very free or else it will affect free-spool and castability. If it's tight you will need to polish the inside of the pinion and/or remove some material from your spool shaft. I think Sal has a thread on here demonstrating his technique.

Next do a full assembly and test your shifter, free-spool, and drive. If you have followed all these steps in order and it still acting up you will need to figure out if it's the spool side-to-side or if it's the jack and yoke. You can put a shim under your crank side bearing and back-off your left side bearing cup to move the spool slightly to the left (which may cure this). You can also remove a small amount of material from the notched side of your pinion gear. If it is still giving you problems go to the jack, Is yours Penn or aftermarket? At this point I would try swapping in another jack and your problems may go way. Bending tabs can be very tricky as Sal stated. If it's an aftermarket jack; do not attempt to bend tabs as they are hardened and you could break one off.

One thing I like to check is to put it in free-spool and turn the crank. If the spool turns it is from contact/friction.  Remember the pinion lug is dis-engaged and the spool is only turning because of a slight contact of the pinion and shaft. If you hold the spool with your thumb the crank should still turn freely. You might also just have some assembly grease or your pinion gear is slightly tilted and the contact friction is what is turning the spool. If it's still noisy or knocking; you still have jack/yoke issues. This pinion/shaft relationship is where it all turns to pure voodoo and sometimes just swapping the jack and/or jack springs will cure it.

Remember; if your spool is empty it will be light and will turn more easily when cranked while in free-spool. A full spool will have greater mass and will resist this urge to spin, a full spool will also spin longer when you give it the good old free-spool test.

The gears will smooth out on their own but a lot of us seem to like to sit in front of the TV and crank away on our new reels.

Good luck
Mike
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nobalance
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« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2017, 10:32:50 PM »

Thanks all - Will try all of the above and let you know how it goes.

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