Shimming Spinning Reels

[Rivverrat]

The inclusion of a 0.002" shim suggests that manufacturers do go to considerable lengths in precision assembly on their flagship reels.

Yes, at the level of reel your handeling here I would hope there would be some evidence of effort put forth regarding the topic.
Based on past experience I'm not a fan of these either. However I am always up for learning more about the present made models & many people dissagree with my thoughts on these reels & are happy with them for
years... Jeff

[ReelClean]

Have you got any prussian blue Brett?  I have often thought it would be interesting to set up a reel and check the pattern on the gears like you do in a diff, then play with the shims on the pinion and main gears and see the effect.  I guess you would be looking for a similar pattern to what you set up in a diff, but maybe on the other side due to the driven gears being reversed?

[exp2000]

Have you got any prussian blue Brett?  I have often thought it would be interesting to set up a reel and check the pattern on the gears like you do in a diff, then play with the shims on the pinion and main gears and see the effect.  I guess you would be looking for a similar pattern to what you set up in a diff, but maybe on the other side due to the driven gears being reversed?

Nah! Haven,t played with the blue stuff since I was a kid lol.

I just like to buy bargain tools these days but don't actually do much work unless I really have to.

But I just converted a garage sale discount high end mig to weld aluminum. That should be fun to play with for a while:)
~

[ReelClean]

Have you got any prussian blue Brett?  I have often thought it would be interesting to set up a reel and check the pattern on the gears like you do in a diff, then play with the shims on the pinion and main gears and see the effect.  I guess you would be looking for a similar pattern to what you set up in a diff, but maybe on the other side due to the driven gears being reversed?

Nah! Haven,t played with the blue stuff since I was a kid lol.

I just like to buy bargain tools these days but don't actually do much work unless I really have to.

But I just converted a garage sale discount high end mig to weld aluminum. That should be fun to play with for a while:)

~

Got enough amps to play with?  Ally luuurvs the heat!  :-D

[Reel Beaker]

Excuse meh, but what is a "shim" and can anyone post a picture of it?

[Reel Beaker]

You guys are getting way to precise for this old guy. As long as it spins freely, doesn't bind up under stress and doesn't have excessive play or wobble I figure it's good to go.   But then I refuse to use or service any spinner that incorporates an oscillation worm gear. 

What is a "worm gear"?

[Reel Beaker]

It s the verticle gear that is powered by your hand on the handle through a regular gear &  connects to & spinns the spool.  It would be the gear numbered 2 in the first pic below... Jeff

Excuse me, but what reel is this? Isnt part 2 the pinion gear? Need to find and study the reel schematics....

[Midway Tommy]

be one way to look at or describe it as kind of a pinion gear. Pinion & worm gear do the same thing... The first real is a DAM Quick the other is an older model Cardinal... Jeff

And.......an oscillation worm gear is a completely different animal, altogether. It makes the spool oscillate/reciprocate in and out and has a similar look to a casting/conventional reel level wind gear. 

[philaroman]

And.......an oscillation worm gear is a completely different animal, altogether. It makes the spool oscillate/reciprocate in and out and has a similar look to a casting/conventional reel level wind gear. 

...But then I refuse to use or service any spinner that incorporates an oscillation worm gear. 

a bit persnickety, in modern reels, but there's nothing better for braid-worthy line lay
are you saying you'd even turn down a Suveran, that got rid of all the fiddly bits?
(yeah I know where Jeff got those wrong photos...  should have scrolled down a bit to the right one )

TOP: worm oscillation
BOTTOM: worm drive

[Midway Tommy]

Of course your correct. Just attempting to keep it simple not knowing the individual & what level their at with things... Jeff

Me too, I was only trying to help Beaker understand there are different worm gears.

a bit persnickety, in modern reels, but there's nothing better for braid-worthy line lay
are you saying you'd even turn down a Suveran, that got rid of all the fiddly bits?

Suveran would be the only one, and I still wouldn't be sold on it because it doesn't have a rear drag. Some people like front drags but I'm not one of them, and, other than the Suveran, I wouldn't buy any of the newer reels with that design. Just me being bull headed, I guess, but I don't like that design and I never use braid.   

[philaroman]

perfectly understandable, to me...  as the ole' ditty goes:

when I was 5, I just wanted to catch A FISH

when I was 25, I wanted to catch MORE/BIGGER fish

now, that I'm a crotchety, cantankerous 50+
I want to catch fish, THE WAY I want to catch fish

[Midway Tommy]

perfectly understandable, to me...  as the ole' ditty goes:

when I was 5, I just wanted to catch A FISH

when I was 25, I wanted to catch MORE/BIGGER fish

now, that I'm a crotchety, cantankerous 50+
I want to catch fish, THE WAY I want to catch fish

You pretty much nailed it but forgot one little phrase..........

now, that I'm a crotchety, cantankerous 50+, and caught more fish than I ever thought possible,
I want to catch fish, THE WAY I want to catch fish   

[Pro Reel]

I've never measured them like you're doing, but have often needed to add or remove shims with replacement gears or just to remove excess slack. Now, one thing I noticed in my shop years ago was a strange phenomenon of a reel that was smooth before service becoming rough after service. Some techs back then told me they thought the gears just needed to reseat themselves and would smooth up over time. That wasn't acceptable for me to do with customers reels. I either needed to figure a way to be sure the reels would be at least the same smoothness after service as before, if not better, or just quit doing spinning reels altogether. Although it didn't seem to make any sense to me, it seemed that the gears in a well used spinning reel had become used to matching up with each other and if you put them back in a different configuration, then they would be rough. This didn't make sense because they don't have an even ratio so they shouldn't be hitting the same teeth on each revolution. Never the less, I saw it to many times to ignore. I started devising a way to mark the gears to put them back exactly like they were. I would use an awl to make a scratch on one flat side of the pinion gear. I would then impale the drive gear with a pointed dowel to hold it in place as I lift off the side cover to keep it meshed with the pinion. I would then make a mark on the drive gear that I could line it back up with later. When putting back together I would turn the pinion up to the side that was marked and then line the drive up with it's mark and then put them together. Once I started doing that I have never had a reel turn out rougher after service than before. The only answer that makes any sense to me is that the gears do wear in a matching pattern but it's a pattern that repeats itself several times depending on the ratio. Itseems that if the ratio is 5 to 1 then there will be 5 perfect matching paterns to the pinion gear. Gettting even one tooth off of that pattern cam cause the reel to be rough. If any of you engineer guys have thoughts on this I would love to hear them.

[philaroman]

Tom expressed his distaste for oscillation worm gears & was asked what it is:

...But then I refuse to use or service any spinner that incorporates an oscillation worm gear.  

What is a "worm gear"?

You offered examples of main drive worm gears -- apples & oranges...  drastically different parts in both, function & appearance -- same name.  I'm sure you meant to be helpful, but your reply creates confusion, rather than "clearly shows & answers the question asked".  Furthermore, the photos you used are straight from the preamble to the AH Suveran review http://www.alanhawk.com/reviews/suv4.html which plainly shows the oscillation worm further on, then both parts next to each other (which is the photo I added)

No animosity: you meant well, you rushed, you got it wrong -- it's a nomenclature issue.

[exp2000]

I've never measured them like you're doing, but have often needed to add or remove shims with replacement gears or just to remove excess slack. Now, one thing I noticed in my shop years ago was a strange phenomenon of a reel that was smooth before service becoming rough after service. Some techs back then told me they thought the gears just needed to reseat themselves and would smooth up over time. That wasn't acceptable for me to do with customers reels. I either needed to figure a way to be sure the reels would be at least the same smoothness after service as before, if not better, or just quit doing spinning reels altogether. Although it didn't seem to make any sense to me, it seemed that the gears in a well used spinning reel had become used to matching up with each other and if you put them back in a different configuration, then they would be rough. This didn't make sense because they don't have an even ratio so they shouldn't be hitting the same teeth on each revolution. Never the less, I saw it to many times to ignore. I started devising a way to mark the gears to put them back exactly like they were.

I would use an awl to make a scratch on one flat side of the pinion gear. I would then impale the drive gear with a pointed dowel to hold it in place as I lift off the side cover to keep it meshed with the pinion. I would then make a mark on the drive gear that I could line it back up with later. When putting back together I would turn the pinion up to the side that was marked and then line the drive up with it's mark and then put them together.

Once I started doing that I have never had a reel turn out rougher after service than before. The only answer that makes any sense to me is that the gears do wear in a matching pattern but it's a pattern that repeats itself several times depending on the ratio. It seems that if the ratio is 5 to 1 then there will be 5 perfect matching patterns to the pinion gear. Getting even one tooth off of that pattern cam cause the reel to be rough. If any of you engineer guys have thoughts on this I would love to hear them.

Thank you so much for posting this. It's like you are reading my mind.
Yet I have only been able to find oblique references regarding this problem on the internet.
The silence was deafening so you cannot imagine how much I appreciate your well documented experience.

My research and adaptive procedures and even my attititude mirrors your own exactly and this issue is the true reason for my original post.

To elaborate any further on the matter would only mean regurgitating your original post.
Suffice it to again say thank you for bringing this issue into the light.

Kudos Sir, you are a true spinning reel engineer and a great service technician.
~