Shimming Spinning Reels

[Pro Reel]

Just a little more detail on how I take a spin reel apart. After removing the handle, the first step is to remove the rotor. At that point I can see enough of the pinion to make a scratch mark on one side. I leave whatever parts that hold the pinion in place there. I then move to removing the side plate. Take off any rear covers etc. Then remove all but one side plate screw. Turn the pinion so it's mark faces up, take my 1/4 inch wood dowel sharpened in pencil sharpener and stick it through the handle hole on the side cover and into the drive gear. I then carefully remove the last screw, hold the dowel tight and lift the cover off. You have to do this in a manner that keeps the teeth of both gears meshed together. I then mark the front of the main gear and put a matching scratch in the frame that will line it up. After that take everything else apart. Line the marks up when reassembling and it will be at least the same smoothness as before. Every once in a while I'll mess up and let the pinion slide forward or the drive gear lift up and turn because I got ahead of myself and took something off before I was ready. That's the only time I get one that isn't as smooth as before now. I have learned to be very careful until I have both gears marked.
I still don't understand how it does it, I just know that it does.

[handi2]

Yes it does.....

[Midway Tommy]

I haven't found that to be the case, though, with a pinion worm gear and main gear combination similar to Jeff's second example. I have heard, and found, that a grease/oil coating forms on the gears, bearing and bushings, that when removed by degreasing, requires a little time for a new coating to form that will reduce some of the metal-on-metal noise. 

[Rivverrat]

Whats being described here is the same thing dealt with a lot of times regarding ring & pinions. I'm not saying this is the situation in every case. I do know it happens. When dealing with mass produced gears  there can be a a slight to big difference in heat treatment & the structure of the alloy used. This can vary within the gear itself. Along with the individual teeth not being exactly the same from the start.

The wear pattern thing is in fact very real. A well used but still serviceable gear set will often sing or sound off a bit when matched up different than it was prior in a rear axle. Seen the same in reels show up as described here as being rough... Jeff

[happyhooker]

perfectly understandable, to me...  as the ole' ditty goes:

when I was 5, I just wanted to catch A FISH

when I was 25, I wanted to catch MORE/BIGGER fish

now, that I'm a crotchety, cantankerous 50+
I want to catch fish, THE WAY I want to catch fish

You pretty much nailed it but forgot one little phrase..........

now, that I'm a crotchety, cantankerous 50+, and caught more fish than I ever thought possible,
I want to catch fish, THE WAY I want to catch fish   

"Each of us should stick with what pleases us, and let others continue on with what pleases them...[t]he main goal in all of it is to improve ways to please the [fish]". Dave Hughes, fishing writer.

Frank

[Reel Beaker]

Whats being described here is the same thing dealt with a lot of times regarding ring & pinions. I'm not saying this is the situation in every case. I do know it happens. When dealing with mass produced gears  there can be a a slight to big difference in heat treatment & the structure of the alloy used. This can vary within the gear itself. Along with the individual teeth not being exactly the same from the start.

The wear pattern thing is in fact very real. A well used but still serviceable gear set will often sing or sound off a bit when matched up different than it was prior in a rear axle. Seen the same in reels show up as described here as being rough... Jeff

So after servicing my reel and soaking them gears in turpentine i should expect my reel to be noiser than usual? But that kinds of beat the point in servicing your reel dont you think?

[Midway Tommy]

Whats being described here is the same thing dealt with a lot of times regarding ring & pinions. I'm not saying this is the situation in every case. I do know it happens. When dealing with mass produced gears  there can be a a slight to big difference in heat treatment & the structure of the alloy used. This can vary within the gear itself. Along with the individual teeth not being exactly the same from the start.

The wear pattern thing is in fact very real. A well used but still serviceable gear set will often sing or sound off a bit when matched up different than it was prior in a rear axle. Seen the same in reels show up as described here as being rough... Jeff

So after servicing my reel and soaking them gears in turpentine i should expect my reel to be noiser than usual? But that kinds of beat the point in servicing your reel dont you think?

Getting rid of the dirt, grunge, grime & sand and adding new, fresh, lubricants will add to the performance & lifetime of your reel. Be patient, give it some time for the gears to remesh and a nice coating of new clean lubricants to establish themselves on the gears and bushings and everything will quite down. The older the reel the more it can be a factor, newer reels, not so much. That is due to part wear.   

[Rivverrat]

Tommy covered it.
I was referring to what was said prior regarding servicing an older or well used reel sometimes when the gears are installed & not matched up how they came out... Jeff

[Scattergun2570]

I've never measured them like you're doing, but have often needed to add or remove shims with replacement gears or just to remove excess slack. Now, one thing I noticed in my shop years ago was a strange phenomenon of a reel that was smooth before service becoming rough after service. Some techs back then told me they thought the gears just needed to reseat themselves and would smooth up over time. That wasn't acceptable for me to do with customers reels. I either needed to figure a way to be sure the reels would be at least the same smoothness after service as before, if not better, or just quit doing spinning reels altogether. Although it didn't seem to make any sense to me, it seemed that the gears in a well used spinning reel had become used to matching up with each other and if you put them back in a different configuration, then they would be rough. This didn't make sense because they don't have an even ratio so they shouldn't be hitting the same teeth on each revolution. Never the less, I saw it to many times to ignore. I started devising a way to mark the gears to put them back exactly like they were. I would use an awl to make a scratch on one flat side of the pinion gear. I would then impale the drive gear with a pointed dowel to hold it in place as I lift off the side cover to keep it meshed with the pinion. I would then make a mark on the drive gear that I could line it back up with later. When putting back together I would turn the pinion up to the side that was marked and then line the drive up with it's mark and then put them together. Once I started doing that I have never had a reel turn out rougher after service than before. The only answer that makes any sense to me is that the gears do wear in a matching pattern but it's a pattern that repeats itself several times depending on the ratio. Itseems that if the ratio is 5 to 1 then there will be 5 perfect matching paterns to the pinion gear. Gettting even one tooth off of that pattern cam cause the reel to be rough. If any of you engineer guys have thoughts on this I would love to hear them.

I am so glad you posted this.. I have very limited experience with reel servicing,but this explanation has crossed my mind quite a few times after 3 different spinning reels not feeling the same after I get them back together. Only trouble is, how in the heck could you figure out where the engagement was from the factory after the service was already performed and slapped back together? Not possible right?

[handi2]

I'm old school with spinning reel shims. I go by feel and sound. One thin shim makes a world of difference in modern spinning reels. Its a pain because you have to assemble then take back apart to get it right.

[Tiddlerbasher]

Then re-shim do-it again -repeat - yup but when it hits that sweet spot - it's always worth it

[Scattergun2570]

I'm old school with spinning reel shims. I go by feel and sound. One thin shim makes a world of difference in modern spinning reels. Its a pain because you have to assemble then take back apart to get it right.

Well what do you do when it's a Penn 4500ss that has no shims on the main,and feels worse after I cleaned and relubed and assembled?

[Glos]

good topic, and fully true

[Busanga]

Just found this thread, very intresting. i have a Stella SW 14k (2019) that feels rough after i loaded it with braid. i think i wound the braid on too tight (my bad).

brand new reel now feels rough, what would you gurus be looking for. It spins very freely but has a rough / geary feeling.

I did notice when it was new and not loaded with braid, that there seemed to be excessive vertical play in the spool shaft and excessive side to side play in the spool shaft. My Stella SW 18k has much less play in it.

would the shims at the back of the worm / oscillating gear affect the vertical play and would the bushing behind the rotor affect the side to side. i figure the roughness would need to shim the main gear

[boon]

Surely a '19 Stella is still under warranty. Send it to Shimano, play dumb, don't mention a single thing other than "doesn't feel right". Make it their problem.