What is No. 9 line used by Penn conventionals in the 1950s?

[festus]

I clipped this out of a 1955 Penn reel advertisement. 

Just curious about this No. 9 line.  I assume they meant braided dacron which was recommended back then.  This No 9 line pops up in quite a few vintage catalogues.

I'm sure this doesn't mean 9 lb test,  definitely not on a conventional.

So does anyone have an idea how strong this line would be?  Maybe it's measured by a certain thickness.  Braided dacron nowadays is measured by breaking strength.

[mo65]

It's not Dacron Festus, they're referring to old linen line. I know just enough about it to get myself in trouble...hee hee...but I imagine someone will be along soon with better details.

[54bullseye]

The old linen line was sold by thread count and was about 3 lb. test per thread hence 9 thread was about 27 lb. test. That is what I know about it but there could be more ???? Lol !!    John Taylor

[oc1]

What John said.  Designating line size by the thread count goes back to the early 1900's and it was actually starting to disappear by the late 1950's.

The threads are twisted together into a ply.  Then, three ply are twisted together like rope to form the line.  Each ply has the same number of threads because if they didn't the line would be bumpy.  So, 9 thread line has three threads in each of three ply.  12 thread line has 4 threads in each of three ply.  The line sizes increase in three thread increments: 6 thread, 9 thread, 12, thread, 18 thread, etc. up to 54 thread.  With about three pounds breaking strength per thread, the breaking strength increases in increments of 9 pounds: 18 pound breaking strength, 27 pound, 36 pound, 45 pound, etc.

The three pounds per thread wet strength was sort of a rule of thumb for the best quality Cuttyhunk linen line.  Lesser quality lines might not have lived up to three pounds per thread.  I think cotton line was closer to 2 to 2.5 pounds per thread.

After linen had been replaced by braided synthetics (Dacron and nylon) that could be manufactured with any breaking strength, they kept the old popular breaking strengths of 18, 27, 36, 45, 54 pound test for decades.  To this day, those are the pound test sizes that braided nylon squidding line comes in.  It wasn't until monofilament became firmly entrenched in the late 1950's that other breaking strength (pound test) became available.  Useless line trivia.
-steve

[festus]

Thanks for getting me straightened out on my first question.

Now, can anybody identify this type of line on an old Penn 209 I restored a while back?  This line is in good shape so I left it on.  It doesn't remind me of the old braided line we used on baitcasters in the 1960s.

But it's definitely some type of braided, but nothing like these new superbraids like Sufix or PowerPro. It's thicker than 40 lb Berkley Big Game mono but a tad thinner than their 50 lb test.

[oc1]

Looks to be either braided dacron or nylon.  If it will stretch a little its nylon.  If it has no stretch it's dacron. 

There's a slight possibility it could be silk.  If you burn the end it will form a plastic glob.  If the ash can be flicked away it is natural fiber and probably silk.

-steve

[Gfish]

What John said.  Designating line size by the thread count goes back to the early 1900's and it was actually starting to disappear by the late 1950's.

The threads are twisted together into a ply.  Then, three ply are twisted together like rope to form the line.  Each ply has the same number of threads because if they didn't the line would be bumpy.  So, 9 thread line has three threads in each of three ply.  12 thread line has 4 threads in each of three ply.  The line sizes increase in three thread increments: 6 thread, 9 thread, 12, thread, 18 thread, etc. up to 54 thread.  With about three pounds breaking strength per thread, the breaking strength increases in increments of 9 pounds: 18 pound breaking strength, 27 pound, 36 pound, 45 pound, etc.

The three pounds per thread wet strength was sort of a rule of thumb for the best quality Cuttyhunk linen line.  Lesser quality lines might not have lived up to three pounds per thread.  I think cotton line was closer to 2 to 2.5 pounds per thread.

After linen had been replaced by braided synthetics (Dacron and nylon) that could be manufactured with any breaking strength, they kept the old popular breaking strengths of 18, 27, 36, 45, 54 pound test for decades.  To this day, those are the pound test sizes that braided nylon squidding line comes in.  It wasn't until monofilament became firmly entrenched in the late 1950's that other breaking strength (pound test) became available.  Useless line trivia.
-steve

Actually, very interesting stuff and good to know, Steve. I got my son a vintage Montague boat rod for his Penn LB 60 with a personalized decale I put on the rod for him. I got myself a "Stone Harbor" Montague and put late 30's LB Deluxe, 65 size, probably order a decale for mine soon. A father-son bonding type a thing. Do you have any recomendations or references to, vintage period correct line for these rigs?

[swill88]

Do "PE" ratings come from this older system as well?

Steve

[oc1]

Steve, I never heard of PE ratings so you'll have to enlighten us.

Greg, from what I can tell, the rope-like Cuttyhunk Irish linen sort of evolved.  Because of climate, terrain and skill, flax grown in Ireland had the longest fibers.  The longer the fibers the stronger the line.  The Industrial Revolution of the 1800's saw the invention of all sorts of textile machinery including ones for making thread, twisting and braiding.  I'm not sure when line braided from Japanese silk came about either, but suspect is was very early 1900's.  It might have had more to do with trade and prices than technology.  In 1937 Ashaway Line and Twine began making braided nylon.  This is pretty well documented because this was one of the very first uses of DuPont's newly-invented nylon.  DuPont was trying to change its image from the guys that made dynamite to the guys that made better living through chemistry.  This was about the time that it was fashionable to boycott Japanese goods in the northwest.  You would see some silk line advertised as Spanish silk to make it more appealing.  Braided Dacron came next.  Not sure of the year but pre-war.  A practical monofilament line (not too stiff) did not come about until post-war and got better through the 1950's and 1960's.  Then high density polyethylene (Spectra) braid.
-steve

[day0ne]

Do "PE" ratings come from this older system as well?

Steve

No, PE refers to polyethylene (UHMWPE) filament lines like Dyneema or Spectra. The most common use of "PE" is to measure the diameter of polyethylene fishing lines. A PE size (e.g PE 0.6, PE 1, PE 2, PE 3 and so on) is based on a Japanese numbering system called "gouw", which was originally used to measure the diameter of silk thread. When a PE rating is applied to fishing line it's simply as a measure of the lines diameter - not the lines breaking strain. In fact, a line rated PE 5, for example, may break at 30lb, 50lb, 90lb or anywhere in between. This can be due to the quality of the fibers, amount of strands (i.e. 4, 8, 12 and 16 strand) and the spinning or braiding process of those strands.

[Tightlines667]

Interesting info Steve.

[Crow]

Very interesting !! I can remember my Dad, and Uncles "smearing" tar on their cotton "trot lines", so they would last longer before rot ate them up. Also the "winders" they made to dry the lines on their casting reels.....after every trip, they would wind the line from the reel onto the "winder" so it could dry out. I guess most of us have been pretty spoiled by synthetics!!

[swill88]

Steve, I never heard of PE ratings so you'll have to enlighten us..  

-steve

What dayOne said... Japanese convention for braid.


steve

[oc1]

I can remember my Dad, and Uncles "smearing" tar on their cotton "trot lines", so they would last longer before rot ate them up.

I used to know some guys who would stretch their old tarred cotton line drum out on the street in Port Royal and pull on it until it broke.  Then, tie it back together and pull until it broke again.  When it got to the breaking strength they needed they'd stop and go fishing.  If it kept breaking indefinitely they'd relent and replace it.

Thanks for the info on PE.
-steve