deep trolling (spectra vs lead core vs wire)

[q3fishboy]

Not sure if this is the right place to post this but...

I was curious about trying to troll at depth without the use of a down rigger.

What line type would get you the greatest depth given the same trolling speed / conditions / etc.?

This is assuming you tie the same amount of weight to the end of the line (lets say 4 pounds).

1)  50-65 pound spectra (thin, obviously #50 thinner than #65)

2)  lead core line (lead being the densest but also have drag from the sheath / coating)

3)  wire line (monel, stainless, copper, etc.)

Also, what are some of the general pros and cons of each?

Thanks a bunch.

[STRIPER LOU]

That's a very good question and I'm sure you'll get a bunch of answer's.

Spectra or braid will get down due to its thin diameter but more importantly is the weight or style of the lure. If your trolling a Stretch 30, a hundred feet of braid will get you down around 25 feet or so. Other lighter lures will require a trolling sinker or you might consider some type of Mo Jo rig depending on what your fishing for.

Lead core has it place as its much easier to work with. As you said, the jacket does create drag. There are some new micro thin lead cores that seem to work fairly well. The smaller diameter makes up for less weight and drag giving you almost as much depth. Lead core is great for light lures as the line itself is easy to work with and much easier to let out then with SS or monel. I use lead core almost exclusively for tube n worm. Overly long lengths of lead core really don't work well as you get to the point of diminishing returns and you end up with a sow belly or the line actually starts to raise back up at the lure end of the line.

Ah! The dreaded SS wire. Its a PITA but I wont leave the dock without 2 wire outfits. Once you get use to it, its a walk in the park. Its pretty consistent depth wise and the simple rule of thumb is 10 feet of depth for every 100 ft of line. Of course it does vary depending on lure style and weight but once its dialed in, it works.

Not great for a beginner though so if you have newbies on the boat, be prepared to spend some money.

Wire will also work harden and break if not used carefully. As in Jerking bucktails or parachute rigs, if you keep stroking the rod in the same place, the line can become springy and break.

A way to avoid this when working chutes is to turn your clicker on and set the drag so that every time you stroke the rod, you hear a click. Its a place where the drag is set correctly for a strike, but lets out and inch or two of line on every stroke of the rod. It simply equates to not jerking on the wire in the same spot all the time. Unless I get hung up or something goes wrong, I can get a serious season of fishing with the same spool of wire.
Monel is nicer to work with but more expensive.

Braid is the cheapest, lead core #2, #3 SS, and monel is the most expensive.

I make marked wire and sell over 10,000 feet every year. The season hasn't even started and I'm completely sold out.
Is wire the best? Nope! But a lot of guys like it!

Hope this helps in your choice.

Have a great day,  ..  Lou

[q3fishboy]

Lou -

Thanks for the great reply.  I was hoping some of you on the east coast would chime in.

I am on the west coast (CA) and feel like I really don't hear about anyone using wire out here.

One difference though, is, I think you guys use the line (spectra, lead core, wire, w/e) as the main weight.

And then there is some potential for a sinking / diving lure to get a little more depth (not sure what a Stretch 30 is).

I am interested in tying a 4 pound lead sinker (legal weight limit) to the end of the line.

I would then be attaching lures off the mainline using down rigger clips etc.

So, assuming the 4 pound sinker is the main weight, just trying to get the deepest.

Not sure if that would be with thin spectra or weighted mainline (lead core, wire, w/e/).

Thanks a bunch.

Roy

[Tightlines667]

Why not use downrigger, or planers?

Just a thought.

John

[STRIPER LOU]

Roy, if I get your drift correctly, you basically have a downrigger rig without the mechanical down rigger itself?

If that's the case and I hope I understand you correctly,  I would think that you would want a braided wire. It will be the easiest to handle and the 4 lbs of weight on the clip will take are of business end as to where you want to be depth wise.

Sometimes the head is a bit dense and if I'm in the wrong direction, please explain again.

A Stretch 30 is a Mann's deep diving plug. It has a very long shovel style lip and a slim design. It will run deep with the minimal amount of line.

Here it CT. 95% of my fishing is on the troll.

................Lou

[Gobi King]

Copper wire is called "magical" in the great lakes, some say cuz of the  voltage/conductivity that attracts the fish or the action due to the wires own characteristics.

Same goes for lead line.

I am going to use dive bombers with a little copper or lead to get them deeper.

1. 5 color of lead or say 100 ft of copper
2. I can add a dive bomber before the above to add some more depth to it.

[q3fishboy]

Thanks for all of the help guys.

A few more details:

I do not own a boat, so, I am looking for alternatives to a down rigger for when fishing from boats that do not have them.

I am exploring this mainly for salmon trolling (around maybe 2 knots) but hoping to get to depths of around 200 feet or so.


John -

As I mentioned above, looking for alternatives to a down rigger for when I am fishing from boats that don't have them.

I also want to try a planer (not sure if they will get that deep) and to try a heavy rod/reel used as a down rigger.

Any thoughts on which of these options will be most user-friendly (I don't have much experience trolling) and get the deepest?


Lou -

Yeah.  So basically an alternative to a down rigger with just 1 line that has the weight and leaders attached (no release clips).

I realized I lied earlier in that the one context I do recall of the local (CA) use of wire for trolling is for salmon as I am interested in.

It seems like they are generally using a solid wire (stainless?) and often remove the rod guides and just put a pulley on the tip.

When you said a braided wire, you mean a multi-strand of wire, not braided spectra etc. correct?

So this is basically like down rigger cable?

I think some people here are switching from down rigger cable to spectra partially because it is thinner and actually gets deeper.

I assumed the wire helped with depth because of its weight, but not sure if its weight outweighs its drag.


Gobi -

Yeah.  Seems like people here have gone through phases of thinking the conductivity either helps, hurts, or doesn't matter.

Is a dive bomber basically combining the idea of wire line and a planner at the same time?

[STRIPER LOU]

I assume you'll be using a level wind reel to handle the spectra and the weight. If that's the case, it may be a reasonable way to go.

Yes, I was talking about braided wire because of the ease in handling.

Here, when we fish some areas of the Race, the current can approach 4 to 5 knots. We will drift fish on a 3 ways using the current. 50 to 60 lb braid and weights up to 24oz. We can fish depths up to 200 ft and a bit more.

I have fished SS wire on the troll to depths a little over 100 ft. A large drail and taking the boat out of gear near the fish zone did the trick. As soon as we inched the throttle forward, the rods would load up.

There's thousands of tricks and things to try. When you find one that works, just take some time and perfect it.

Good luck,  ..  Lou

[akfish]

If you don't want to use a downriver, consider a Pink Lady or Dipsy Diver diving plane. Many people up here use them successfully.

[Swami805]

So salmon trolling spectra should be fine. You can use a sinker release to your 4 pound ball then a length of mono to a flasher then another length to your lure/bait. If you're cheap like me ond don't want to cough up the cash for sinkers use a "snubber" instead of a sinker release. The snubber is like glorified surgical tubing with a nylon line down the middle that acts as a shock absorber. The 4 pound sinker will keep the salmon from jumping too so you lose less fish. I actually hate trolling for salmon almost nothing as boring and prefer to mooch but that's a different story. I like eating them so if it's a trolling bite so be it
Leader length can vary depending on the flasher or bait. Go to the local tackle store where you plan on fishing and ask there is your best bet to get what's working in that area. Depth water color forage all affect what's working.
Never seen anyone using wire or lead core but I think the commercial salmon guys use wire but that's a different ball game
Another angle is to hop on a passenger boat for a day and they know what works best because they do it every day

[handi2]

That's a very good question and I'm sure you'll get a bunch of answer's.

Spectra or braid will get down due to its thin diameter but more importantly is the weight or style of the lure. If your trolling a Stretch 30, a hundred feet of braid will get you down around 25 feet or so. Other lighter lures will require a trolling sinker or you might consider some type of Mo Jo rig depending on what your fishing for.

Lead core has it place as its much easier to work with. As you said, the jacket does create drag. There are some new micro thin lead cores that seem to work fairly well. The smaller diameter makes up for less weight and drag giving you almost as much depth. Lead core is great for light lures as the line itself is easy to work with and much easier to let out then with SS or monel. I use lead core almost exclusively for tube n worm. Overly long lengths of lead core really don't work well as you get to the point of diminishing returns and you end up with a sow belly or the line actually starts to raise back up at the lure end of the line.

Ah! The dreaded SS wire. Its a PITA but I wont leave the dock without 2 wire outfits. Once you get use to it, its a walk in the park. Its pretty consistent depth wise and the simple rule of thumb is 10 feet of depth for every 100 ft of line. Of course it does vary depending on lure style and weight but once its dialed in, it works.

Not great for a beginner though so if you have newbies on the boat, be prepared to spend some money.

Wire will also work harden and break if not used carefully. As in Jerking bucktails or parachute rigs, if you keep stroking the rod in the same place, the line can become springy and break.

A way to avoid this when working chutes is to turn your clicker on and set the drag so that every time you stroke the rod, you hear a click. Its a place where the drag is set correctly for a strike, but lets out and inch or two of line on every stroke of the rod. It simply equates to not jerking on the wire in the same spot all the time. Unless I get hung up or something goes wrong, I can get a serious season of fishing with the same spool of wire.
Monel is nicer to work with but more expensive.

Braid is the cheapest, lead core #2, #3 SS, and monel is the most expensive.

I make marked wire and sell over 10,000 feet every year. The season hasn't even started and I'm completely sold out.
Is wire the best? Nope! But a lot of guys like it!

Hope this helps in your choice.

Have a great day,  ..  Lou

Lou while on the subject of using wire I just finished a Penn 80 a person used in the Bahama's for high speed Wahoo trolling.

The wire is very flexible and super shiny. It will kink if not wound on property.

Is this wire SS or Monel?

Thanks,

Keith

[STRIPER LOU]

Keith, Its more than likely monel. A bit expensive for my blood.

...........Lou

[Tightlines667]

A planer rigged to a heavy reel spooled with spectra will get your line down, or you could use a dedicated stubbie/planer rod, or handline tied to a cleat, and clip the trolling line to the planner line.  I use #64 rubber band attached to a small carabeener clipped to the planer line.  This allows resetting the line w/o retrieving the planer.

I don't like extra crap hanging off of the line with a big fish on it.

John

[q3fishboy]

First, thanks again everyone for all of the help.


Lou -

Sounds like I should try either the separate rod with spectra as a down rigger or the multi-strand wire mainline.

Not sure what a "drail" is either but I appreciation all of your insight and expertise.


Akfish -

I am definitely considering using a diver, but the deepest I could find was the double deep size.

My impression is that it will still not get me down to the vicinity of 200 feet deep.


Sheridan -

I've had some success fishing on friends boats with down riggers, so, I think I have some idea of baits / terminal rigging etc.

So, like you mentioned, I think the commercial guys use wire, and some people have adopted the idea for recreational.

They are fishing like a 6/0 senator filled with wire line tied to a heavy cannon ball with no guides on the rod and pulley at the tip.

Since you can fish 2 hooks recreationally, they use 2 x 1 hook leaders and clip them to the wire line with long line clips.

I think the idea is to either get multiple hookups on the same line or be able to split the water column with only one line.

But this is confounding the idea of my original question of just how to troll the deepest.


John -

The deepest diver I have seen was the double deep six but I don't think it will get me down to around 200 feet.

Definitely want to try the dedicated stubbie / planer rod, though I was planning on just using like a 6 pound cannonball.

I agree that not having extra stuff on the line while fighting a fish is great, but there is also the hassle of having 2 lines in the water.

And, as eluded to in my reply to Sheridan, there is also the advantage of the wire line fishing 2 leaders from a single line.

(We have a 1 line per person limit when fishing for salmon)

[Swami805]

Sorry to be confounding, we were fishing south of conception so we would troll 4-6 rods for 2 of us. We got the best depth with 50lb braid and 3lb of lead.
If the fish were really deep we troll at 1.2 knots, seemed to get a little deeper that way.
Haven't had salmon down here in awhile, the wire line sounds interesting,hope you get it sorted out