first build questions.

Started by ScottOz, May 28, 2018, 04:34:51 AM

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ScottOz

Hi all,planning my first build. looking to build a 15kg  stoker/ tuna style 5'6" to 6 foot long rod for sharking in my boat matched to a tld 25.Already have a combo that has served me well for 10years but the rod is getting pretty tired so thought i would have a crack a making my own.After some research and advice from a fellow A.T brother I thought that I had made some decisions on some things regarding the build.After ringing a custom builder that supplies rodbuilding components etc I am now not sure.Here goes.
Was going to underbind in black A thread with metalic trims in A also.Overbind with black D thread.The rod builder said that there is no need to use A as it is a solution to a no existant problem.What are your thoughts?
Also had intended to cover whole rod and bindings with epoxy.He recomend not doing that as it creates more problems then it solves.He said just do bindings as the blanks come with coatings from the manufacture.Have not made my mind up on blanks yet but will be glass.Maybe a calstar eglass 6455 if I can afford it.Any help be magic.

ScottOz

Just had a look on mud hole and the calstar 6455 is 74$ here in Australia I got a price for 210$.ouch.

Jeri

In answer to the blank question, most blanks come factory coated with protective coatings, whether paint of paint under a resin type coating. Leave that intact, and just whip and resin where the guides are placed.

As to whipping and resin over the entire blank, you will severely alter the action of the blank, and most certainly change the flexibility.

As to whippings, under whipping with A thread has no detriment, other than you will need loads more than if you used thicker D thread. We tend to build all rods with D thread, and only much lighter rods with A thread - say ultra light spinning rods. Visually, and performance wise, the D thread is perfectly suitable.

Hope that helps

Cheers from sunny Africa

Jeri

ScottOz

Thanks Jeri,
                 Thanks for the advice.Reread my post and realised I worded some of it a bit wrong.I meant just coating the whole rod with epoxy finish.Not whiping and coating the whole rod.I have much to learn.Cheers

thorhammer

Naw, we know what you meant. if you go black over black it won't matter, but sometimes using A under and D over works nicely because the overwrap wont bite into the under, being larger, and leave a sliver of color showing. I have used flex coat light as an over coat of the whole rod on a refurbish but only do so on heavy glas blanks. Should you choose to coat whole blank, especially new, Voodoo Rods makes a finish for this or you might use a couple coats of varnish which is very much lighter.

Also, if you can stand to be rodless for a minute, you might take your "tired" rod down to the blank, paint it, and wrap that one as practice. Highly recco you practice your epoxy technique on something old first to get the hang of it, so you don't end up with sags or gaps. Key point: DON'T just put the finish and leave it be to turn overnight....you should keep an eye on it here and there the first couple hours so you can smooth where it gaps around guide feet, and pop the air bubble at the edge of the brace that will squeeze out as the threads saturate with epoxy.

My 0.02 learned the hard way :)

John

Swami805

I almost always do an under wrap unless it's an untra light rod and a tiny bit of weight matters, A will work fine just will take longer to wrap especially if you're turning it by hand. Keep the coating just for the guides, no point putting it on the blank, it will peei and yellow with time. You might want to strip and wrap and old rod first and get the hang of it. $210 is crazy, keep looking, there's bound to be something comprable down there
Do what you can with that you have where you are

ScottOz

Cheers, would like to redo the old rod but was not real sure on how hard/costly it would be to respray.Can pressure cans work? Has to have flexing agents in paint right? Maybe paint for bumpers? Intend to practice practice practice everything. Still yet to build myself a stand and thread holder.Have started piecing bits and bobs together.Scott

happyhooker

Underwraps used to be a bigger deal than they seem to be now.  Theory always was the underwrap would cushion the guide feet and perhaps prevent any rough edge on the bottom of the foot from biting into the blank.  Trend seems to be no underwrap, except on heavier use rods, which might be what you're contemplating anyway.

I'm with thorhammer on an "A" underwrap with "D" wrap over.  Hard to wrap a finer thread over a coarser one because the finer thread tends to "fall" into the grooves of the underlying coarser one, leaving the underwrap to show through.  Wouldn't make much difference I guess if both threads the same color.  Not sure I see a problem with same size threads on both wraps, especially if they're the same color.

I, too, see no value to coating the whole blank with anything, in a modern blank build.

Good luck and let us know of progress.

Frank

droppedit

I like the "A" thread for the underwraps and do use them for all rods except fly and ultralight. Depending on the guides and how much stress the rod will be going thru, I've usually double wrapped the guides. I give them one wrap of "D" and a coat of finish and then the same color but size"A" over that. Just make sure you let the finish harden up for a few days before the second wrap. I've found that in the long run it will help with the cracking at the guide feet and as long as the 1st coat of finish isn't too thick it doesn't make the wraps look too bulky. I've even triple wrapped a bunch of rods for the commercial tuna guys. They bend, they last, and they don't complain. I'd use a good 2 part epoxy finish and stay away from the sprays.
Hope this helps.


Dave

Some days the supply of available curse words is insufficient to meet my demands.

http://www.turnerscustomrods.com

Jeri

Just a hypothetical question.

In the past heavy duty game rods were under whipped and then over whipped, sometimes even double overwhipped. Basically, historically this would have been for strength, as the strength of the varnish they were using for thread work was not that strong.

However, today we have seriously strong resins, like Flexcoat, where the strength of the resin is probably considerably stronger than the thread. To the point, that it is conceivably possible to actually just resin a ring or roller onto a blank - not very pretty, but certainly strong. Just a single wrapping of thread to reinforce the resin, should in theory be stronger than the double whipping and varnish of days or old.


So, why do we persist with double whipping, and what is the benefit of under whipping when rings or rollers are all on the top side of the rod??

Just a question - or am I missing some thing?

Swami805

Old habits die hard for fisherman. If I build a 7' rod it better have 8 guides on it, doesn't matter that a static test shows it only needs 6. Same with wrapping, the under wrap isn't really nessecary but no ones buying it without it.
Do what you can with that you have where you are

droppedit

Jeri, I can almost agree with you on the strength of the resins BUT, if a commercial tuna guy has a fish on over 96" and looses it because a guide wrap fails, I don't want to be the guy he is going to yell at. Anybody's rod for that fact. They come to you to build a decent rod that will perform for decades so I will over build it for them.


Dave
Some days the supply of available curse words is insufficient to meet my demands.

http://www.turnerscustomrods.com

Jeri

I can agree with the sentiment for 'extreme' commercial rods, and perhaps a few outright heavy tuna sticks aimed purely at Bluefin, however for most other situations, the build becomes overkill.

The flexibility that the blank designer built into the blank is severely compromised by all the 'hard points' created by excessive rings and under whipped and over whipped rollers. The line of thinking that I am following, is that it is that very flexibility that is going to tire any big or medium fish out, once you have taken drag settings and line strength out of the equation.

We have recently been doing some work with some seriously strong surf rods, designed to cast sinker and bait combinations of in excess of 16oz, and we have found that the traditional route of multiple 2 foot rings were more than adequate. Then as a pure experiment, we built a rod using some 2 foot and single foot rings. The power and casting ability of the experimental rod was way over the traditional design - almost a 10% gain in casting distance and certainly more power available in the rod.

In trying to answer the question why??? The only answer seemed to be that the reduction of stiff points around the curve of the rod was allowing the true power of the rod blank to come back into the equation. I'm certainly not suggesting single leg guides on a tuna rod, but more thought towards the strength of materials we have today, and how much potential power we are masking or losing with over building.

Just my idle thoughts.

Cheers from sunny Africa

ScottOz

Some interesting thoughts coming in.Maybe alot of it comes down to where percieved strength comes from and also old habitsdo die hard.If something has worked for people they generaly won't start changeing things.For my build think will underbind in A and 1 overbind in D.And just epoxy the guides not the full rod.Have recently learned about rail rods for tuna and how longrange tuna guys are going to 8ft rods using  80lb plus gear.Here in oz there is no way you would find rods like that on a boat.Maybe in ten years as we seem to be a bit behind.We only just start to get hollow core braid on the shelves.Scott

Bill B

#14
When John, Frank, and Sheridan give advice on rod building you would be very wise to listen.  All have considerable experience and very good building skills.   JMO....but I listen to what they have taught me and done very well.......Bill
It may not be very productive,
but it's sure going to be interesting!