Mooching reel drag upgrade

[Navidad Nutcase]

Hi folks,  Asking for input on this ''project".
History: the cork drag systems on our salmon Mooching reels (used on a downrigger) were never meant to fish the depths we ask of them. At 150 feet they creep. If you tighten them down until they don't creep then you have way to much drag tension for a 20 pound fish. I fish Amundson and Islander reels. The first is a $200 reel , the second is $500 -- they both creep. A technique we have come up with is to use a Scotty clip on a short leash, tied to the gunnel.  the clip is then clipped to the fishing line about a foot past the reel. This works very well to help hold the line and thus, not so much drag tension is needed but is just another piece of equipment to deal with.

I am trying a carbon drag upgrade. I must use 2 carbon fiber washers to come up with the same thickness as the cork one  I am replacing.
My question; Should I glue 2 together and then glue it onto the reel where the cork one was glued ? Do I glue 1 to each side of the reel and let them rub each other (does this work ? carbon to carbon, or does carbon work better rubbing against a metal plate ?) the 3rd option is to glue 2 together and let them ''float'' between the 2 metal sides of the reel. I am not to keen on the 3rd option because I do not think there is enough ''shoulder'' in the center of the reel to keep the carbon fiber washer centered.  Any opinions and ideas will be greatly appreciated.
Greg

[mo65]

   I know nothing about mooching reels, but I do know a little about carbon drag material. If the original cork was glued in place, I'd think the carbon fiber should be glued as well. Carbon fiber washers can be stacked, we do that all the time. They will "squish" together and spin against the metal just fine, but you could glue them together if you wanted to I suppose. Good luck and let us know how this progresses.

[jurelometer]

A bunch of thoughts.

It sounds like you want the behavior of a slightly sticky drag,   so it takes a bit of extra force to start the drag.  I wonder if  a stronger clicker mechanism might be an alternative.
-------------
From a previous thread: 

"Cork has very different properties than carbon, some of them more beneficial including a higher coefficient of friction, and vibration dampening.  You will find that you will need more clamping pressure (including bearing load) for the same drag setting if you switch to carbon.   I used to be in the  "cork is old fashioned" camp,  but now have more appreciation for the stuff. "

(lots of other threads on switching cork to carbon if you hunt around a bit).

Some more on cork vs carbon-   cork makes a very good clutch material as long as it s kept lubricated and within its operating temperature.  Water intrusion does not affect performance- the cork acts as a seal, preventing water from getting between the drag surfaces.  A cork fly reel will have the same drag performance underwater.   There is a limit to the amount of clamping force that you can place on cork before it permanently compresses.   Carbon can run at a higher temp and will not fry if it runs dry, but water can get between the surfaces, leading to uneven performance.  It will withstand a much higher clamping load.   Cork still has a place in fly (and mooching?) reels, but with the advent of super lines, not so much for conventional or spinning reels.  The extra clamping pressure and heat encountered from log runs at high settings is beyond the capabilities of cork.

-----

So you have a reel designed for cork (including porting where water can intrude),  and  you still want to try going to carbon fiber...

You might want to look at the design of the reels a bit to determine how well alignment is maintained under load.   As mentioned above, cork has much better vibration dampening properties, and will be more forgiving of alignment issues.  The design might have taken advantage of this, making the plate a bit too wobbly for carbon fiber.  Similarly, the bearings may not be large enough to handle the additional axial load required to support the additional clamping force required to reach the same upper drag setting.

In terms of carbon fiber rubbing against an aluminum spool -  Terry Hayden used to have an option to switch the drag from cork to carbon on his fly reels.  Every thing was the same except the cork on the plate was replaced with carbon fiber.  But the Hayden reels used type III anodizing.  Most likely your reels are type II anodized.   So there might be some concern about wear of the carbon on aluminum, especially if you run the carbon dry.   BTW- Hayden stated that carbon was better for getting more granularity in adjustment, but with lower top drag.   This is most likely because of the lower coefficient of friction.   

You need to ensure that the disk is bonded very flat to the plate, and that the resin does not bleed up to the surface.   Ideally you want to build up the carbon layer to the thickness of the cork,  but multiple layers may make it difficult to keep the surface flat and true,    This might require a press and some sort of fixture to ensure a flat surface (maybe a machinist's vice with some extra tall jaws?)  .  Depending on the design, it may not be necessary to add extra carbon layers,  but you will probably need some new spacer washers and belvilles to take up the slack and give you more clamping pressure.

I don't think you want carbon against carbon.  It will just shred.

You could glue the carbon to the spool and have it rub against the plate,  but the plate is probably aluminum, and probably is not smooth,  so I don't see what you are buying with this approach.

In the end, a well designed, well maintained carbon fiber drag will have a very small difference between static vs. dynamic coefficient of friction.   If you are successful in switching the drag material,  I don't see how this will help you reach your particular set of goals.   It will take a bit of luck and skill to convert a reel designed for cork to work well with carbon fiber.   You could end with a "downgrade".

But nothing beats real world experience.   If you give it a try, post back your results  (good or bad) , so that we all can learn.

To be honest, I like the idea of what you are doing with an external clip,   You get the extra drag just one time when the fish hits and not every time it starts a new run.   Don't need to tell you about salmon and soft mouths

-J

[Navidad Nutcase]

well that was a most interesting bit of  reading jurelometer. And very informative. I now believe I am downgrading for sure. I never thought of the carbon fiber wearing on my aluminum spool. I also did not know the information about carbon having lower coefficient of friction than cork. It seems like I will need MORE tension on the drag knob - not less.  I have 2 identical Amundson reels, so will continue with this project on the one and post results. I think I will just use the 1 thickness glued to the reel body like the cork was. I'll simply add a washer under the drag spring to make up the thickness difference. I will monitor the wear and test drag force but I am not very optimistic about the pending results. Thanks for the information.
Greg

[whalebreath]

The newest model from Islander deals with the creep issue in a novel way

https://www.islander.com/shop/troll/tr3/

Multi-layer Fluoropolymer and Stainless Steel Disk Drag

The heart of the Islander TR3 is its all new drag system made from an ultra-high performance fluoropolymer material known for its low coefficient of friction, durability and consistent performance across wide temperature ranges.

Disks are laser cut then sandwiched between alternating layers of stainless steel. The result is silky smooth performance, zero start-up inertia and more than enough power to stop the hardest fighting chinook. Simply put: it is the finest performing drag system on the market today.

Fully Sealed Drag System

The TR3 uses four O-rings to create an impenetrable barrier, preventing contaminants or corrosion from affecting drag performance. The sealed nature also means that the drag requires virtually no ongoing maintenance to continue performing at its best.

[jurelometer]

The newest model from Islander deals with the creep issue in a novel way

https://www.islander.com/shop/troll/tr3/

Multi-layer Fluoropolymer and Stainless Steel Disk Drag

The heart of the Islander TR3 is its all new drag system made from an ultra-high performance fluoropolymer material known for its low coefficient of friction, durability and consistent performance across wide temperature ranges.

Disks are laser cut then sandwiched between alternating layers of stainless steel. The result is silky smooth performance, zero start-up inertia and more than enough power to stop the hardest fighting chinook. Simply put: it is the finest performing drag system on the market today.

Fully Sealed Drag System

The TR3 uses four O-rings to create an impenetrable barrier, preventing contaminants or corrosion from affecting drag performance. The sealed nature also means that the drag requires virtually no ongoing maintenance to continue performing at its best.

The "ultra high performance fluoropolymer" is  most likely PTFE (trade name Teflon).  For fishing reel drags, the fiber filled variety (trade name Rulon) is used as PTFE alone is too squishy.    It has a very small difference between static and dynamic coefficient of  friction, a good thing in drag materials,  unless you are looking for a bit of stickiness to stop "creep".

Rulon is being used more frequently in fly reels and smaller conventionals.   It is extremely water resistant, and has a low coefficient of friction.    Too low.    Combined with a fairly low pressure rating (you can't apply much clamping force to it before it starts squishing),  it becomes nesessary  have a very large disk or a stack multiple semi large disks to get enough drag for even a larger saltwater fly reel.   Rulon also has the strange property where the coefficient of friction decreases as RPMs increase.   Great for making bearings, not so great for drags.

Since rulon is nearly impervious to water,  and there are stainless steel (or  titanium) alloys that are highly  resistant to salt water corrosion, I  don't know why the reel manufacturers insist on sealing behind o-rings that are inherently prone to failure, unless they are trying to protect a one-way bearing- blech.

Not saying that the Islander is a bad reel (Islander seems to have a solid reputation) or that Rulon is useless as a drag material,  but there are  tradeoffs involved.    For a reel dedicated for salmon fishing, where the drag requirements are modest, and the fish don't run that fast,  rulon might be a good choice.

Market demand is really driving fly reel manufacturers toward "sealed" "maintenance free" designs,  but I get the distinct impression that the top brands have more faith in their classic designs.  I suspect the same is happening with mooching reels, but I have next to zero experience with them.   So take this as only a semi-informed opinion from the fly reel side of things...

[jurelometer]

well that was a most interesting bit of  reading jurelometer. And very informative. I now believe I am downgrading for sure. I never thought of the carbon fiber wearing on my aluminum spool. I also did not know the information about carbon having lower coefficient of friction than cork. It seems like I will need MORE tension on the drag knob - not less.  I have 2 identical Amundson reels, so will continue with this project on the one and post results. I think I will just use the 1 thickness glued to the reel body like the cork was. I'll simply add a washer under the drag spring to make up the thickness difference. I will monitor the wear and test drag force but I am not very optimistic about the pending results. Thanks for the information.
Greg

Great!   Nothing like a real world test.  I hope you prove me wrong 

If you want more top end drag, you should be able to get that, assuming you have the spacers right.

I was thinking that at 150' depth,  you must be using a downrigger,  so I don't understand why the normal clip on the downrigger line is not providing the extra tension.  Or is the friction from the water

on the line while you are trolling causing the issue?

And if you want just a one time short duration supplemental "troll hold" drag,  I would expect there could be a simple gizmo that could be designed to do that...

[Navidad Nutcase]

I am not seeking more drag, or a better drag curve, etc. The reels - both Islanders and Amundson and many others brands of moochers have great drag settings. And there design is not much difference than that of a fly reel. The only thing I am trying to stop is the creep.
   And the creeping doesn't have anything to do with the bottom end of things , down by the cannon ball or the clip. When you have 150 feet of line going thru the water between the cannon ball and the boat, that line creates drag. As the reel creeps out line, a bow  developed in the line between that cannon ball and the boat. More line creeping out,( bigger bow in the line ) more drag. More drag, more creep. Add to that the tiny bits of seaweed hanging up on the line - more drag. We have to pull our lines often (some days) just to deal with seaweed, bull kelp and sometimes little jellyfish hanging up on the line. We did gained extra depth with the invention of the thinner braid lines. We use them on our downrigger lines and our reels.
   Another thing that - IMO - points to craftsmanship of the reels having a part in this, is that not all our reels creep the same - under the same conditions. My fishing buddy runs 2 Islanders. One doesn't start creeping until 135 +/- and the other creeps at 120 +/-. Identical reels. My Islanders are a bit older than his and both start creeping around 120 feet. The Amundsons about the same. All reels are cleaned often and in ( to the eye ) the same shape, but something is obviously different. Perhaps the quality or density of the cork on the drag. Possibly the bearings are a bit stickier in some reels than others.

What I am looking for is a reel that will hold until enough force is put on the clip down at the cannon ball to trip that clip. Be it a fish that did the tripping or trash on the line. I haven't found that yet. Well, we have but only by using the extra clip at the top - and that works fine, but hey, I'm a fisherman. Always trying to improve the equipment. I think that is a good thing. Otherwise we would all still be using a string tied to a willow stick.
   In a way I am glad I didn't start this conversation before I cut the carbon fiber drag disc. I would have just left the reel as it was and continue using the extra clip,  But now I HAVE to. I gotta try this.  It shouldn't be more than a week or so before I have enough test runs to report back. Quite windy this past week but that will change and we'll get out for some fishing. We have more wild coho in the water than we have had for many, many years. Can't keep them but still fun to play with.
  again, thanks for all the talk. I've gained some knowledge and even some new words I had to google to find the definition of.

greg

[jurelometer]

Ahh, got it.

So it is friction on the line while you are trolling.  Creep means that either/both the load is increasing, or that the drag is reducing.   

Assuming all reels are set at the same level, and measured while the spool is turning,  I am pretty sure the difference is caused  by one or both of  the following:

1:  the difference between static and dynamic coefficient friction on each reel.   This is what you are doing with the extra release clip by the reel - creating the equivalent of a greater  initial static coefficient of friction.  You can check this with an accurate scale by paying attention to the amount of force required to start the drag vs. the amount of force to keep it going.

Lubricant plays a very big role in in friction, and the is no way that two reels will have identical lubrication.  The difference in bearing friction is probably too minimal to be noticed.  Islander maintanence suggests sprinkling graphite powder on the drag surface,  so the is no way two reels will be the same.


2. Clamping force reducing over time ( most likely coil spring fade, but cork compression is a possibility).

This can also be measured by setting the drag to the level that you normally use,  checking with a scale, initially and after an hour or so.

If cork compression is contributing to the problem,  then your prototype might improve behavior.

By measuring both before and after, you can also find out what you changed in the reels performance.

A couple more side observations:

3. Even though the drag is set at x lbs at the reel, the amount of force required to take line at the hook end will be substantially less.  The force is additive.  For example if the drag is set at 6 lbs,  and the friction from the  bow in the line while trolling is generating 4 lbs,   The fish only needs to pull at 2 lbs to take line.    The release clip on the downrigger is probably supplying the hookset, so it is a good idea to pay attention to it's setting.

4.  The friction goes way down with a narrow line diameter.  If you are using mono, going to gel spun (spectra) will greatly reduce the load.  Don't know if this is frowned on by the mooching reel crowd.  If you guys were doing it the easy way, you wouldn't be using mooching reels  (as a fly guy,  I understand ).

[Hardy Boy]

I have thought of trying to change the cork to carbon fiber but after seeing well used islanders where the cork has removed all of the anodizing I though that the carbon fiber would wear it out fast. Maybe if they put a stainless disk it would work. The open backs would be an issue with CF, I never thought of that. Maintain the cork with oil and rough it up once in a while when they are worn smooth and they work just fine.

Cheers:

Todd

[whalebreath]

What I am looking for is a reel that will hold until enough force is put on the clip down at the cannon ball to trip that clip.

You need a couple of these-forget those poncy metal toys with their eye watering prices and obscure 'issues' (!)

[Hardy Boy]

Those are hard to beat for little or no maintenance, good drag and they can be found for cheap. No muss no fuss but .............. no bling !!

Tons of guys use them. I like my islanders but when rookie company comes that puts reels on the floor and bumps them around the boat out come the shimanos !


Todd

[Maxed Out]

 Diawa also makes a very affordable graphite body mooching reel.

I have fished both Diawa and Shimano knucklebusters for over 2 decades without ever a single service and they still work great

[Navidad Nutcase]

I agree Tod. I change my fishing gear entirely when ''relatives'' come for a once every 2 year fishing experience. and yes  whalebreath, I have had less trouble and more holding power (less creep I mean) with those little Diawa's than any other reel I've owned. I got into the Islanders - like many I'm  thinking -  by figuring  ''they gotta be better than Diawa, because they cost way more.'' If I had it to do again I would not own the expensive reels. And at least once a season ( and right now too )I say to me, I am going to put them on Craigslist and fish my M-1's. but I never do.

jurelometer, this is getting pretty scientific for me, but I understand where your coming from and what you are saying. You also twigged a memory. These reels DO creep more as the day goes on and VERY little at the start of the day. So part of the problem could definitely be compression of the cork drag disc. I also have thought to try my International 12's and my 6 on these downriggers . If I do I'm betting those moochers may all be on Craigslist.

Hardy Boy, Oil on the cork drag surface ? I thought I read where this was frowned upon. Don't you loose a lot of friction ? thus lost drag pressure? The reels are not sealed so we do get water on the cork surface but oil seems way to slick to me.

[whalebreath]

Hardy Boy, Oil on the cork drag surface ? I thought I read where this was frowned upon. Don't you loose a lot of friction ? thus lost drag pressure? The reels are not sealed so we do get water on the cork surface but oil seems way to slick to me.

Islander actually sells Super Lube to use on their cork drags.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=49&v=QQKwKGLAsBo