Gear Ratio and Line Retrieve

[sharkman]

I was thinking which can be dangerous sometimes. If you have two reels: the first reel has small spool with high gear ratio and the second reel has large spool with low ratio but both retrieve the same amount of line per crank. Would the large spool low gear not be the best of both world by have same feet of retrieval and the low end torque of lower gears. 

[akfish]

Yes. Other things equal, fast gears have smaller teeth which are more likely to shred.

[Keta]

Yes, see the Penn 349/349H reel.

[mo65]

   Yes...I feel the larger spool/lower gear is the ticket for power...BUT...the smaller spool/higher gear has it place when it comes to needing a lighter combo.

[Keta]

   Yes...I feel the larger spool/lower gear is the ticket for power...BUT...the smaller spool/higher gear has it place when it comes to needing a lighter combo.

And for some uses a smaller low speed reel is preferred.

[Decker]

I was fishing a 3:1 Squidder in 75 feet of water last weekend.  That is a small spool diameter, low gear ratio.  Although it works fine at that depth, I think I'd rather use a 5:1 reel of the same size,  because it is easier to keep tension on the line.   I guess that's why they make two-speed reels for the big fish, though I've never owned one.

[jurelometer]

Not quite.

It's all leverage.  

A lower gear ratio gives you more leverage -  if you take half as much line per revolution, it takes twice the revolutions to retrieve the same amount of line, but only you only use half  the amount of energy per revolution.

The  spool diameter has exactly the same effect.   Half the amount of line per revolution,  Half the amount of energy per revolution,  but the same amount of total energy expended.

So if you increase one and decrease the other proportionally (same amount of line retrieved per turn of the handle),  there will be no difference in the effort it takes to retrieve the same amount of line.  And it is no easier or harder to turn the handle.

You  can get all technical about the relative efficiency (effort lost due to friction) of large spools vs. large gear ratios,   but the difference will be negligible for our purposes.

Regarding tooth size,  gear ratio does not have to effect tooth size.   if the tooth size is too small for the expected load,  and there is not enough meat on the pinion to cut a deeper tooth,  moving the center distance of the gears the distance of the extra tooth depth required (not very far)  takes care of this.

IMHO, the reasons we sometimes see smaller teeth with higher  gear ratios has mostly to do with the legacy of what has already been manufactured.  But there is no necessity to design a reel this way.  The TLD star is a good example of a high gear ratio reel with beefy teeth that has been around for quite awhile.  

A  narrow reel will experience less twisting force on the frame.  BUT a taller reel will have more leverage against the foot or rod clamp,  while a shorter reel will tend to have more of the load pulling the reel toward the tip with less leverage.   Higher gear ratios will put more force on the anti reverse components for the same spool diameter on star drag reels and some lever drags,  but if you increase the spool diameter and decrease the gear ratio proportionately (same amount of line per handle revolution), the force on the anti reverse will be the same.

A narrow  reel  makes  easier to pack the line on evenly if the reel does not have a levelwind.

There is a sweet spot  in spool height vs width, where you get the right amount of strength, castability and ergonomics.   A reel more targeted to casting might be a bit wider, and a reel for jigging or trolling might be a bit narrower.   But there is a limit,  which is why most modern reels fall within a certain ratio.

The reel designers  theoretically start with an ideal  dimension and stretch or narrow the design  to allow for more/less line capacity without having to design too many models.

From what I have read,  the customized super-narrow wahoo reels filled a need when there was no other good choice available.  They  were the result of some fishermen getting clever and using what was available to make a strong reel with fast retrieve capability and plenty of capacity for larger test mono.   I'm not sure why anybody would design a conventional reel from scratch that way today (excluding underhand jigging reels).  If you like tall & narrow reels, they get the job done, and you enjoy fishing with them,  then you have the exactly the right reel.       I just struggle with the engineering based argument that unusually tall/ narrow is somehow inherently better.

[Decker]

Nice summary, Jurelometer!

[jurelometer]

I was fishing a 3:1 Squidder in 75 feet of water last weekend.  That is a small spool diameter, low gear ratio.  Although it works fine at that depth, I think I'd rather use a 5:1 reel of the same size,  because it is easier to keep tension on the line.   I guess that's why they make two-speed reels for the big fish, though I've never owned one.

Good point Joe,

A high gear ratio (or larger spool diameter)   comes in handy when you need to wind a lot of line.    What works for me in this type of situation is a high gear ratio, but also a longer handle arm.   The longer handle arm gives me more leverage,  but I still get the advantage of more line per turn.  A longer  handle arm is more difficult to crank super-fast,  but   I don't usually need to speed-wind in this kind of situation.   For shallow water lingcod fishing, my favorite reel is still an old narrow squidder with a long handle arm.   Those first couple of cranks to keep the ling out of the rocks are easy,  even if I am  dozing and not holding the rod correctly.  But this  is a shallow water only situation, and I find myself mostly sticking more to the 5:1 reels.

I personally don't think a two speed is necessary until getting into big  fish and high drag settings, where it is too hard to wind at the high gear ratio that you mostly need.  Two speeds can help you catch fish or loose fish, depending on the situation.

-J

[FatTuna]

There is always going to be a trade off somewhere. It could be speed, torque, weight, size, etc. The only way to gain more speed and torque is to fish a bigger reel which obviously has it's drawbacks.

Groundfishing I use mostly high gear ratio. 6.0:1 and 6.4:1. I like reels that are compact and lightweight but that can still crank in a lot of line. I originally had a 4.0:1 reel and I kept dropping fish. Certain species buck and kick on the way up. I found the extra speed helped keep everything tight. I found that a more moderate action rod helped too. For jigging it's useful because you always want your jig vertical. I'll pitch it up current, let it sink, jig for a bit, once it's scoped out, burn it back to the surface and start over. Low gear ratio feels like it takes forever to get back up. If you're bait fishing in deep water, same deal when something steals your bait.

For spinning reels, I have mostly high gear ratio too. I like the extra speed for working certain lures and jigs quickly. Also, if it's species that swims quickly, it's important to reel in any slack quickly. I mostly use the rod to fight the fish. With a high gear ratio you can always reel slower but with a low gear ratio you can only reel so fast.

For tuna we fish a 2.2:1/1.2:1 two speed. It's such a big reel that it has the best of both worlds. 38 inches per turn when in high gear but also a lot of power. The trade off is that it's as heavy as a bowling ball and has to be fished out of a swivel rod holder. I personally never use low gear. Those fish are so damn fast and aggressive that if it runs at you and you're in low, it's all over. I can't even keep up with them in high gear reeling as hard as I can. I wish it was a 3.0:1 in high and a 2.0:1 in low.

I've never really had a need for low gear ratio for any of the species I target. I understand why someone would want it though. I imagine it would be best for large but slow moving species. Maybe a big halibut, grouper, catfish, certain species of shark, etc.

I think that two speeds only really become something to consider if you are doing a lot of big game standup fishing or groundfishing in deep water for large fish. 

[oc1]

I'm with you on the high speed FT.  I'm fishing flats with mixed bottoms and it is important to be able to get the jig up and over coral heads.  The high speed really helps.  Also, the fish will run across the flat and then turn and angle back.  Got to have super high speed for that.  My zone of influence (where everything has been spooked away from me) is about a third of the casting distance so a third of the retrieve is wasted time.  A high speed reel picks the wasted line up quickly.

The need for speed has influenced the overall shape and size of baitcasters and fostered the low profile revolution.  To wit:
The spool shaft diameter is sized to the drag pressure, spool diameter and required strength.  The pinion is sized to the spool shaft it must fit over, the depth of the gear teeth, and the wall thickness (between shaft and teeth) needed for strength.  The main gear is sized to the gear ratio.  The circumference of the main gear divided by the circumference of the pinion is the gear ratio.  So, if you have a big robust pinion you need a huge main gear to get high speed.  As more speed is desired, the outside edge of the main gear (farthest from the pinion) begins to extend past the edge of the spool flange.  To accommodate a large main gear on a round reel, the head plate would become noticeably larger than the spool, look awkward, become more top heavy and heavier overall and be impossible to use as a palming reel.  So, they started making reels oblong instead of round.  I think Lew Childers (Lew's) working with Shimano did it first with the BB1 in 1975.  The funny shape was difficult for traditionalists to accept. But, the low profile baitcasting reel was not just a matter of styling, it was the only way to get the job done.  They soon realized that there was no need to make the tail plate as large as the oblong head plate and asymmetrical reels appeared.  The height of the tail plate is now dictated only by the spool diameter.  The length of the tail plate is dictated by the spool diameter and the need to move the disengaging levelwind eye out away from the spool.  Since the head and tail plate did not need to be symmetrical they tilted the head plate down below the reel stand.  The drop-down head plate lowered the center of gravity and improved balance.  It all looked very weird at first, but some of us got used to it and that seems to be where the technology is stuck at present.

Abu was able to get the speed of their round reels up 6.3:1 in their C4 Ambassadeurs while maintaining roughly the same overall dimensions of the original 5000.  They made the spool diameter slightly smaller so it could be moved back away from the main gear.   The gear teeth were made smaller and finer to decrease the effective diameter of the pinion so sometimes the C4's are not as robust as the original.  The round Ambassadeurs were always at the limits of what could comfortably fit in the hand and they are no longer really considered a palming reel.
-steve

[Benni3]

 A high speed reel picks the wasted line up quickly.      I need every inch I can get to set the hook but when a fish makes a big run,,,,,the bigger spools are more smoother when he takes drag 

[jurelometer]

 A reel without a motor does not have "torque".  Torque is rotational force.  It is measured by the amount of force applied divided by the distance from the center point.   10 lbs of force at a 2 inch radius = 10/2 or  5 pound-inches of torque.  The fish applies torque at the spool spindle,  you apply torque at the main gear shaft.  I think you folks might mean mechanical advantage (leverage) when you are discussing torque.

Those behemoth gold reels don't have any special cranking power by virtue of having big spool diameters and small gear ratios.   its still comes down to amount of line wound per revolution and handle arm length.   

-J