Hard fiber spacer washer

[Gfish]

That's the stock Penn washer, a 4-155. I believe that's the stock phenolic resin, #5 that Jurelometer listed.

[jurelometer]

Ive never seen a problem with Delrin material. No deformation or creep. The reels I do are used with very tight drags on charter boats. They get abused daily. When they come back many have problems but the drag system is cleaned and reused. 4 seasons now on one set of Carbontex drag washers and Delrin washers. Approximately 400 reels.

Good info Keith!

This is what I like about this site.  Real life hard data from the experts.   

I was wondering if fiber reinforced delrin (same melting point, but less creep) would be a better choice over pure delrin/acetal,   but it is starting to sound like it is not necessary.   I would still be a bit nervous about using delrin/acetal on top of the drag stack if I was anticipating some long runs.   More of the heat goes out of the top of the stack, and there are stories of folks getting skin burns  from a hot star.  But to overheat the under-gear washer,  the main gear has to heat up. and that takes a much longer run.    With  three or four hundred yards of line, the heat-up period is going to be just a few minutes at most.  Either you break off, or the fish stops, and the drag starts to cool.  Excluding drag washers, the performance limitations  of the favored materials may not be much of a real-world issue.

That's the stock Penn washer, a 4-155. I believe that's the stock phenolic resin, #5 that Jurelometer listed.

I think so too.   But I have to confess to using the term imprecisely. 

A lot of the plastics that we are used to can be melted and reformed multiple times (nylon, delrin, polyethylene, ABS,...).  These are thermoforming plastics.

There are other plastics that only give you one shot, and once they heat and cool, cannot be reset.  These are called thermoset plastics and includes, epoxy, urethanes, polyester, and  phenol (AKA Bakelite- the stuff old Penn side plates were made out of).  Thermoset plastics tend to be more creep resistant than thermoforming plastics.  When we talk about "fiber washers" or "phenolic washers" we are referring to a washer made from some sort of cloth impregnated with a thermoset resin.     Phenol based compounds are resistant to oil, grease, etc, and are often more heat resistant than other choices, and have been readily available for decades.  It seems to me to be the most likely candidate.

If there is somebody out there with training in material science, feel feel to confirm or correct me.

-J

[oc1]

I have been using Mylar (DuPont polyester) washers, mainly because I can pick them up in a variety of sizes at the local hardware store (City Mill, Greg).  Mylar is good up to about 300F, but I doubt that I could approach anything near that with the type of fishing I do.  Mylar density is about the same as Delrin.  The washers appear to be thermoset, cross laminated and about 20 mil.  If you try to ream out the hole or grind down the edge you find it is very hard and burns instead of melting.  The thin size can be used to advantage by stacking the number needed to get the right height.
-steve

[Alto Mare]

Steve, Mylar is good but if I remember correctly it was very expensive.

The slippery Delrin ( brown) is more slippery and stronger that the black Delrin we've been using, but rated a little lower on temperature.

It is the same material Carl Newell used on his speed bearing, it was recommended to me by Reel Speed.
When I checked it out, I wasn't crazy about the way it would punch, I actually ruined many and I have a very good punching set.
The brown is also too costly.
As I was testing the Delrin, I also tried a bearing:
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=9746.msg90472#msg90472
It did good, but maintenance would have been a pain. Of course as you could see on the topic above, I had to grind the bottom of the main gear and wasn't sure if that would cause problems in the future.

As mentioned above, I have been using Delrin for about 6 year now and have no issues to report.

I do have a few reels that come back for service and the Delrin always looks good.
The Tank is set up with a Delrin as well, when it came back that washer looked good.

A carbon fiber wadsher doesn't make sense to me.
Alan has been offering a different system, a gear sleeve with the flat sides running all the way to the bottom, his include a metal washer and a carbon fiber washe. That does make sense if you are looking for more drag.


Dave ( Jurelometer) is one of the smartest member I know, but I will respectively disagree . Once you add a few pounds with the star, the main gear isn't going to wobble.

Sal

[jurelometer]

Hey Sal,

Not that smart.  Give me a post or two, and I'll prove it. 


Actually, I think we are in agreement.   

I was trying to point out that star drag reel designs always   push star-> drag stack->main gear->under-gear washer to avoid wobble.  This was in response to Donnie's question if there was any load on the under-gear washer.

We now have lots of real-world data that shows  switching to  delrin for the under-gear washer makes the drag smoother, with no durability issues or other complaints of failure.   So I would say that your expirement with Delrin has been quite the success.  Delrin may be less creep and heat resistant than other choices, but it definitely appears to be up to the job, and it makes a great low maintanence thrust bearing surface.

I am guessing that the brown stuff is Delrin AF.   That is delrin with some PTFE added.  Compression strength is the same as regular Delrin, but not  as hard or as stiff.   The big advantage is that the coefficient of friction is much lower for AF with  little variance from static to dynamic (less sticky).  Max short term operating temp is the same:  212F.    And the compression strength to temp chart shows that softening really starts taking off around 250F.  It was the temp numbers that made me nervous about delrin in the first place.  But I can't argue with success.

I still have a tiny nagging fear in the back of my mind that emptying the reel at a high drag setting would create enough friction for enough time to cause a Delrin under-gear washer to get a bit melty,  but I am not worried enough to remove the delrin and replace with rulon in my reels, plus I really like the extra smoothness.

Yo have won me over  ~90% on this one 

-J

[Dominick]

Too good information that might get lost, so I stickied it.  Dominick

[Alto Mare]

Hey Sal,

Not that smart.  Give me a post or two, and I'll prove it. 


Actually, I think we are in agreement.   

I was trying to point out that star drag reel designs always   push star-> drag stack->main gear->under-gear washer to avoid wobble.  This was in response to Donnie's question if there was any load on the under-gear washer.

We now have lots of real-world data that shows  switching to  delrin for the under-gear washer makes the drag smoother, with no durability issues or other complaints of failure.   So I would say that your expirement with Delrin has been quite the success.  Delrin may be less creep and heat resistant than other choices, but it definitely appears to be up to the job, and it makes a great low maintanence thrust bearing surface.

I am guessing that the brown stuff is Delrin AF.   That is delrin with some PTFE added.  Compression strength is the same as regular Delrin, but not  as hard or as stiff.   The big advantage is that the coefficient of friction is much lower for AF with  little variance from static to dynamic (less sticky).  Max short term operating temp is the same:  212F.    And the compression strength to temp chart shows that softening really starts taking off around 250F.  It was the temp numbers that made me nervous about delrin in the first place.  But I can't argue with success.

I still have a tiny nagging fear in the back of my mind that emptying the reel at a high drag setting would create enough friction for enough time to cause a Delrin under-gear washer to get a bit melty,  but I am not worried enough to remove the delrin and replace with rulon in my reels, plus I really like the extra smoothness.

Yo have won me over  ~90% on this one 

-J

Oops, I just reread that and you are correct Dave, sorry about that.
Well, now this means I agree with you 100%

Sal

[captquint99]

Thank you all for your experience. I always feel great when I learn something about reels. I will be installing Delrin washers under the gear on my surfmasters, and jigmasters that I'am servicing this winter. The amount of knowledge on this board is outstanding and you all should be commended.