Boss Xtreme 400, clicker problem (silent) in one direction

Started by Mandelstam, August 08, 2020, 05:16:57 PM

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Mandelstam

My Accurate Boss Xtreme 400 has an issue with the clicker and since I've never taken one apart before I wanted to check with you if you have come across similar issue and what the problem might be before opening it up.

The clicker works fine and is loud and clear when retrieving line, never an issue. But in the other direction, when line is pulled from the reel the clicker can end up in a very silent "dull" mode with noticeable clicks but very silent and dull (the only word I find that can describe it). Sometimes it jumps between Loud (normal) and Dull "mode" and sometimes it's just stuck in dull mode.

Anyone seen anything similar? What should I look for when opening it up? 
"Fish," he said softly, aloud, "I'll stay with you until I am dead." - Santiago, Old Man And the Sea

JRD

There is a clicker ring similar to Penn reels.  If it was working fine and stopped then I vote for the ring being worn out or bent.  If it started after reassembly then maybe it was engaged when you put the gear side plate / spool assembly back in.  The clicker is just an arrow head shapped pawl that fits into a gap created between the two ends of the clicker spring.  Just careful to use the correct size driver when taking the gear side plate off.

Mandelstam

Quote from: JRD on August 09, 2020, 04:24:15 AM
There is a clicker ring similar to Penn reels.  If it was working fine and stopped then I vote for the ring being worn out or bent.  If it started after reassembly then maybe it was engaged when you put the gear side plate / spool assembly back in.  The clicker is just an arrow head shapped pawl that fits into a gap created between the two ends of the clicker spring.  Just careful to use the correct size driver when taking the gear side plate off.

It has never been serviced or taken apart and only fished for ~50 hours maybe. I have to go get some torx drivers to get it apart. I'll open it up and see what I can see. 
"Fish," he said softly, aloud, "I'll stay with you until I am dead." - Santiago, Old Man And the Sea

Mandelstam

Took it apart to have a look at the clicker mechanism. I was a little surprised to see that it was all plastic, even the dog. There was some black rub off mixed with grease which I take to be some plastic being worn off. This has only been fished with for one week in total.

Anyways, my newb eyes can't really spot anything weird or wrong. Both spring arms seem to have the same amount of spring and tension.

Clicker disengaged


Clicker engaged


Spool cover


After further experimenting I've noticed that the clicker jumps into "dull" mode more frequently when in free spool. With drag engaged it rarely happens. But if I start to pull line from the spool in free spool and it jumps in to "dull" mode it can continue like that even after engaging the drag.

It's almost as the cog just skips over the dog. But only when the spool turns in one direction. Weird.
"Fish," he said softly, aloud, "I'll stay with you until I am dead." - Santiago, Old Man And the Sea

RowdyW

Check the wear pattern on the tongue to see if is making contact across the whole tip. Also check if the teeth on the spool are getting contact all the way across. It seems like the tongue and teeth are riding on the edge, It may require shiming on either part or both. Another thing is the spool may have to be shifted probably to the left to fully engage the tongue and teeth on the spool.         Rudy

JRD

From your pics you can see the pawl is not straight in either the engaged or disengaged position.  This would cause the pawl to not engage in the spool gear straight and may account for the dull sound as it's skipping over the teeth and not catching on them.  In the days of metal clicker rings you could adjust the ring to keep the clicker centered.

Two things.  Try cleaning the clicker button assembly and channel in the frame.  Maybe old grease or debris is causing the uneven engagement.  I like to heavily grease the channel to help cut down water intrusion but had a few similar problems with older accurate plates.  Also sometimes over torquing the clicker ring screws can cause distortion.  Remove the ring and make sure it's true - with no pressure on the ring both ends meet squarely.  Reassemble with enough torque to secure the ring but not distort it.

Mandelstam

Quote from: JRD on August 09, 2020, 01:21:08 PM
From your pics you can see the pawl is not straight in either the engaged or disengaged position.  This would cause the pawl to not engage in the spool gear straight and may account for the dull sound as it's skipping over the teeth and not catching on them.  In the days of metal clicker rings you could adjust the ring to keep the clicker centered.

Two things.  Try cleaning the clicker button assembly and channel in the frame.  Maybe old grease or debris is causing the uneven engagement.  I like to heavily grease the channel to help cut down water intrusion but had a few similar problems with older accurate plates.  Also sometimes over torquing the clicker ring screws can cause distortion.  Remove the ring and make sure it's true - with no pressure on the ring both ends meet squarely.  Reassemble with enough torque to secure the ring but not distort it.

Looking at the pics I noticed that too now, that the dog is not straight. I guess it makes sense then that it could engage differently depending on the direction the spool is turned.

Thanks for the tip! I'll take it out and clean it up properly.

I noticed one thing when undoing the screw for the handle arm. There were metal filings stuck in the threads and under the nut. Not from the threads because they looked fine but from pressing the arm onto the side plate I think. Separate issue but if debris was stuck there from factory assembly it could be stuck in other places too...
"Fish," he said softly, aloud, "I'll stay with you until I am dead." - Santiago, Old Man And the Sea

Mandelstam

Took it apart a little more.

The clicker ring/spring seems to be slightly deformed and not symmetrical. As it's plastic I can't really bend it into shape.





I cleaned it and put it back together, well greased. After cleanup and probably a bit more grease than it had from the start the difference is even more pronounced. Very smooth but clear clicks when retrieving and now almost silent when pulling line from the reel. The knob jumps back and forth though.

Order a new clicker ring?
"Fish," he said softly, aloud, "I'll stay with you until I am dead." - Santiago, Old Man And the Sea

Mandelstam

Here's a picture of the clicker ring from a service guide on the Boss Xtreme. What it should look like I guess.
Link to service guide: https://gaspinggurami.wordpress.com/2013/09/24/servicing-accurate-boss-bx-400nx/

"Fish," he said softly, aloud, "I'll stay with you until I am dead." - Santiago, Old Man And the Sea

jurelometer

Those round marks on the ring look like mold  marks from ejection pins.  I think that this is an injection molded part, which means it was made from a thermoplastic, probably nylon, maybe delrin. 

Thermoplastics will creep over time if under load, especially if there's no fiber filler.   Fiber filler was probably not used in this part, as it needs to behave as a spring, and the filler would make it stiff and more brittle.

Thermoplastics can be remelted, either entirely  ( to recycle), or partially for thermoforming.

So if you were to clamp the part in the proper shape, or maybe a bit extra, it would creep back over time.   If you are in more of a hurry, you can gently heat the part with a heat gun or similar, and then clamp flat until cool. Or a combination of the above.

My guess would be that the part is made of. Nylon 6/6.  You should be able to form with with heat pretty easily somewhere around 200c, but less than  that should be adequate.   It will want to warp when cooling, so clamping the part between two flat surfaces may be necessary.

If I guessed wrong on the plastic being thermoforming, or if you overheat,  you could wreck the part, but if you were going to order a new one anyways, it might be worth a gamble...


And welcome back!

-J

Mandelstam

Quote from: jurelometer on August 09, 2020, 05:08:26 PM
Those round marks on the ring look like mold  marks from ejection pins.  I think that this is an injection molded part, which means it was made from a thermoplastic, probably nylon, maybe delrin. 

Thermoplastics will creep over time if under load, especially if there's no fiber filler.   Fiber filler was probably not used in this part, as it needs to behave as a spring, and the filler would make it stiff and more brittle.

Thermoplastics can be remelted, either entirely  ( to recycle), or partially for thermoforming.

So if you were to clamp the part in the proper shape, or maybe a bit extra, it would creep back over time.   If you are in more of a hurry, you can gently heat the part with a heat gun or similar, and then clamp flat until cool. Or a combination of the above.

My guess would be that the part is made of. Nylon 6/6.  You should be able to form with with heat pretty easily somewhere around 200c, but less than  that should be adequate.   It will want to warp when cooling, so clamping the part between two flat surfaces may be necessary.

If I guessed wrong on the plastic being thermoforming, or if you overheat,  you could wreck the part, but if you were going to order a new one anyways, it might be worth a gamble...


And welcome back!

-J


I was thinking about reshaping it with heat but wasn't sure if it was a thermoplastic or not. Thanks for the input on that! I might give that a shot while waiting for the replacement. As I'm in Europe I'm not really sure where to order from but I've reached out to the shop I bought the reel from and we'll see.

And thank you! Means a lot!
"Fish," he said softly, aloud, "I'll stay with you until I am dead." - Santiago, Old Man And the Sea

JRD

If you have a source Penn parts near you I would try and track down the clicker spring from a Penn 209 or even if you know somebody that has a wrecked side plate for a 500 jigmaster. If memory serves the clippers were interchangeable between the earlier boss Magnum series and may be interchangeable with the extreme. It's likely to be a much faster and cost-effective alternative. Just remember that the clicker spring made of brass or bronze will wear the clicker pawl much more quickly.

The lesson learned is to make sure you store the real with a clicker disengaged, I am assuming that the distortion was caused by the clicker being engaged and riding up on one of the teeth and held there for quite some time.

Gfish

Fishing tackle is an art form and all fish caught on the right tackle are"Gfish"!

Brewcrafter

The part in the photos looks symmetrical, would it be possible to "flop" it?  While it will still be limited in one direction it might be possible to where the "loud" portion of the clicker would be when line is being pulled off, which would seem to me to be the more pertinent need.  At least it might get you by temporarily pending either "reforming" the part with Dave's advice or sourcing a new one. - john

Mandelstam

Quote from: JRD on August 09, 2020, 11:59:59 PM
If you have a source Penn parts near you I would try and track down the clicker spring from a Penn 209 or even if you know somebody that has a wrecked side plate for a 500 jigmaster. If memory serves the clippers were interchangeable between the earlier boss Magnum series and may be interchangeable with the extreme. It's likely to be a much faster and cost-effective alternative. Just remember that the clicker spring made of brass or bronze will wear the clicker pawl much more quickly.

The lesson learned is to make sure you store the real with a clicker disengaged, I am assuming that the distortion was caused by the clicker being engaged and riding up on one of the teeth and held there for quite some time.

Thanks for the tip about the Penn 209 spring! I'll see if I can source one.

About how it happened I'm not quite sure. I first started to notice it after about a week of fishing, and then it was  brand new from the store. Just because I didn't notice it before doesn't mean the problem wasn't there though. I guess it could have been sitting on the shelf at the store with the clicker engaged. Or the ring was deformed when assembled. It's not off by much and I guess could be overlooked by the person assembling it.
But I'll sure keep it in mind when putting it on the shelf now, no clicker engaged!
"Fish," he said softly, aloud, "I'll stay with you until I am dead." - Santiago, Old Man And the Sea