Bearings

Started by JasonGotaProblem, November 17, 2020, 02:50:43 PM

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oc1

#15
Quote from: philaroman on November 17, 2020, 07:15:01 PM
sorry, I'm seeing $3.75 for "steel cage"; NO "stainless"!!!; no mention of balls at all  ;D  and no "Made in..."

I agree  For all you know, you are getting chrome races that will chip and rust almost immediately.  You are not saving money if they fail and you have to fight to get them back out.
-steve

philaroman

Quote from: Pro Reel on November 18, 2020, 01:10:24 AM
most bearings you find will be from China. Even Boca bearings is just an importer dealer, they don't make bearings, they buy from China. The best bearings generally come from Germany or Japan. A good and affordable Japanese brand available here is EZO Bearings. Dads Ol Tackle in Texas is a dealer with good prices.

If you want competition quality ceramics the best I know of come from the rocket reel company in the UK.

Sapporo/EZO is great, but I thought they were only metric
Dad's Penn options are the 'spensive OEM's
(which makes me think a good budget option is not readily available)


Quote from: oc1 on November 18, 2020, 06:38:57 AM
Quote from: philaroman on November 17, 2020, 07:15:01 PM
sorry, I'm seeing $3.75 for "steel cage"; NO "stainless"!!!; no mention of balls at all  ;D  and no "Made in..."

I agree  For all you know, you are getting chrome races that will chip and rust almost immediately.  You are not saving money if they fail and you have to fight to get them back out.
-steve

yeah, some red flags in product description
Speedy Edward, Fast Eddy's UK cousin  ;D
any size, any price, replace often  :o


Quote from: jurelometer on November 17, 2020, 11:28:58 PM
Quote from: nelz on November 17, 2020, 06:21:32 PM
Quote from: oc1 on November 17, 2020, 06:17:07 PMYou usually get what you pay for.  The ABEC system is largely bogus for what we are trying to do.-steve

Huh? Please explain...

ABEC specifies dimensional tolerances, nothing more.  If you have a assembly that needs to spin at very high RPMs (not a fishing reel)  then you might need a high ABEC rating (but that won't be enough).  ABEC does not specify anything regarding load capacity, max RPMs, ball roundness, etc. 

-J

pretty sure I saw a table for RPM's by ABEC rating, somewhere
don't quote me on exact numbers, but maybe something like <20K max for ABEC-1
& something ludicrous, way outside the fishing world, for ABEC-7...  I dunno -- 60K  ???

jurelometer

I am pretty sure that ABEC only specifies the tolerances, not the RPMs, but from the same reputable manufacurer, the max RPMs would go up with ABEC number, all else being equal.   Agree that nobody turns a handle on a spinning reel fast enough for it to matter  :D

Which brings us to another point:  for a higher tolerance bearing to make a difference, the assembly it is going into has to be constructed and assembled to very demanding tolerances measured in the ten thousands in (0.000x in).  This hardly  describes a series 2 Spinfisher, or any other fishing reel.

Any decent bearing will work as well as a fancy one on a spinning reel. Pack with grease for durability, or clean well and mess with lighter lubricants to make it spin more easily.  Go fishing.

-J

Tiddlerbasher

Having played with bearings for many years now I have come to a couple of conclusions.
The most notable thing (for fishing reels) about higher Abec rated bearings is they make your wallet much lighter.
And the guy who sold them dines out more often.

Now I just buy a decent manufacturers (EZO, SKF etc) bearing in quantity as cheap as possible. Flush out the bearing until it's dry - spin it on an appropriate shaft to get a feel of how smooth it is and how long it spins - I usually use wooden dowel rods as they seem to transfer minute vibrations better. The best ones are for casting with conventional spools. It really doesn't matter about the other bearings in a reel as long as they are of a reasonable quality.
I have found that for spinning reels it really doesn't matter unless the bearing is so rough you can feel it - Knackered springs to mind.

Perhaps the most important thing is STAINLESS for anything near salt water.

Of course this is just my 2 penny worth ;D

JasonGotaProblem

#19
Thanks all for the input. I'd be thrilled if the discussion continues because I continue to learn new cool things. Re: my reel, I ordered some EZO bearings and I should be good.

And don't tell me how fast to spin my spinning reels! ;D
Any machine is a smoke machine if you use it wrong enough.

philaroman

baby rant: I really like my old Shimano single-shielded -- shields face out to minimize debris; other side is open for easy inspection/packing...  WHY IS THAT NEVER AN OPTION, ANYMORE  ???  everything is either, all open or double-shielded/sealed

nelz

Quote from: jurelometer on November 18, 2020, 10:37:52 AMAgree that nobody turns a handle on a spinning reel fast enough for it to matter

I think there's one place on spinning reels where high RPM's do occur, and that's the line roller. Certainly you want high quality bearings in that spot as they take the most stress there; high load, fast spinning, and lots of salt water exposure. Will ABEC 3 suffice for that purpose?

I'm looking for a pair to replace the double bearings in the roller on my Cabo 60 PT, but anything over ABEC 3 stainless costs $15 each, no way I'm doing $30 for that, heck, I paid less for the reel!

philaroman

see if you can find same-size bushings...  pref., Oilite

tell the folks exact IDxODxH you need -- never know when something off-brand might match up
I've found various nice, useful brass inside old Okuma spools & drag-knobs
that doesn't even have individual part#'s, much less listed dimensions

nelz

Quote from: philaroman on November 18, 2020, 09:24:23 PMsee if you can find same-size bushings...  pref., Oilite

Thanks for the suggestion, but I can get a pair of stainless bearings for $7. The only thing is they are only "ABEC 3", but I still prefer that over bushings.

JasonGotaProblem

Quote from: nelz on November 18, 2020, 09:44:04 PM
Quote from: philaroman on November 18, 2020, 09:24:23 PMsee if you can find same-size bushings...  pref., Oilite

Thanks for the suggestion, but I can get a pair of stainless bearings for $7. The only thing is they are only "ABEC 3", but I still prefer that over bushings.
You could always math it out to figure out how fast your line roller is actually turning (expressed in RPM) and see if abec3 is sufficient. If you want I can write an equation for you to evaluate.

Relevant measurements would be: diameter of spool, distance from center of line roller to center of spool, diameter of line roller, gear ratio of reel, and the fun one: you would need to see how many times you'd spin that handle in a minute during a fierce fight (would involve timing and counting).
Any machine is a smoke machine if you use it wrong enough.

philaroman


maybe for casting spool bearings, you need ABEC-5 precision -- for anything else, good! ABEC-3's are fine
your concern is not the ABEC rating, per se, but that modern no-name $3.50 ABEC-3's
may well be made of crap stainless, not good enough for most exposed spinner bearings in salt+sand
what's your "budget source" -- plenty folks here good at reading between the lines


jurelometer

Posting at the same time as Jason:
Quote from: JasonGotaPenn on November 18, 2020, 10:01:28 PM
Quote from: nelz on November 18, 2020, 09:44:04 PM
Quote from: philaroman on November 18, 2020, 09:24:23 PMsee if you can find same-size bushings...  pref., Oilite

Thanks for the suggestion, but I can get a pair of stainless bearings for $7. The only thing is they are only "ABEC 3", but I still prefer that over bushings.
You could always math it out to figure out how fast your line roller is actually turning (expressed in RPM) and see if abec3 is sufficient. If you want I can write an equation for you to evaluate.

Relevant measurements would be: diameter of spool, distance from center of line roller to center of spool, diameter of line roller, gear ratio of reel, and the fun one: you would need to see how many times you'd spin that handle in a minute during a fierce fight (would involve timing and counting).

You just need to know inches per handle revolution- which is usually included in the specs (or you can calculate from filled spool circumference times gear ratio) and divide by the roller circumference.  Multiply this by how fast you expect turn the handle.

Quote from: nelz on November 18, 2020, 08:31:30 PM
Quote from: jurelometer on November 18, 2020, 10:37:52 AMAgree that nobody turns a handle on a spinning reel fast enough for it to matter

I think there's one place on spinning reels where high RPM's do occur, and that's the line roller. Certainly you want high quality bearings in that spot as they take the most stress there; high load, fast spinning, and lots of salt water exposure. Will ABEC 3 suffice for that purpose?

I'm looking for a pair to replace the double bearings in the roller on my Cabo 60 PT, but anything over ABEC 3 stainless costs $15 each, no way I'm doing $30 for that, heck, I paid less for the reel!

While a line roller bearing it is the fastest turning bearing on a spinning reel, it is still not very fast for a ball bearing.

For a spinning reel with a 37 inch line  retrieve per handle revolution, and let's say about a 5 mm (~.2 in) line roller diameter, you end up with about 60 bearing revolutions per handle revolution.  If you are winding at 3 handle revolutions per second (that is pretty fast), that comes out to 180 handle RPMs, or 1080 RPMs on the line roller.  This is trivial for any decent ball bearing.  double, triple, quadruple that number, any bearing that is not complete garbage  will not break a sweat.  A plain bearing (AKA bushing) should do fine here as well, if that is an option for this reel.  I don't understand why folks assume that ball bearings are always better than plain bearings.

As noted earlier in this thread- ABEC rating is not not an rating of quality or of RPM capability,  it is an indicator of tolerances of the balls and races.  If you have a high tolerance assembly (not a fishing reel), then you want to worry about quality and dimensional accuracy. 

I just saw some ABEC 9 skateboard bearings on that  evil world's largest web retailer site: 16 for 9 bucks  ::)   There is market demand  for low cost, high ABEC rated bearings that is met with low quality product.

-J

nelz

#27
Quote from: philaroman on November 18, 2020, 10:29:41 PMABEC-3's are fine
your concern is not the ABEC rating, per se, but that modern no-name $3.50 ABEC-3's may well be made of crap stainless, not good enough for most exposed spinner bearings in salt+sand what's your "budget source" -- plenty folks here good at reading between the lines

TRB RC 5x8x2.5mm Precision High Speed Ball Bearing, 440C Stainless Steel ABEC 3 with Rubber Seals.
Stainless Steel 440C ABEC 3 Races
Stainless Steel 440C Balls
Rubber Seals to Help Fight Dirt
Great for Use in Applications that May Get Wet

nelz

#28
Actually, Quantum sells the original ones at the same price, but the shipping $$$ kills that deal  >:(

philaroman

#29
Quote from: nelz on November 18, 2020, 10:36:57 PM
TRB RC 5x8x2.5mm Precision High Speed Ball Bearing, 440C Stainless Steel ABEC 3 with Rubber Seals.
Stainless Steel 440C ABEC 3 Races
Stainless Steel 440C Balls
Rubber Seals to Help Fight Dirt
Great for Use in Applications that May Get Wet

good details, no red flags that jump out...  could be excellent value OR just good enough for couple seasons,
till you see the gold light  ;D  if you maintain meticulously, brass/bronze can be just as good for results
if you tend to get a little lazy occasionally, it may be better for service time/effort
...heck, better for service time/effort, PERIOD!!!  ;D  no maybes involved
especially, since your bearings are wearing prophyl...  rubb...  darn 12-year-olds