alan tani @ alantani.com fishing reel repair rebuild tutorial tld 20/25
Fishing Reel Repair by Alan Tani
April 23, 2014, 05:38:00 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register  
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 6 ... 10   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: tld 20/25  (Read 42169 times)
0 Members and 8 Guests are viewing this topic.
alantani
admin
Administrator
Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9521



« on: December 07, 2008, 09:11:22 AM »

here is a link to the schematics for the single speed tld 20 and 25 reels.....

http://fish.shimano.com/media/fishing/SAC/techdocs/en/Conventional/TLD_20_ARB_v1_m56577569830570244.pdf

http://fish.shimano.com/media/fishing/SAC/techdocs/en/Conventional/TLD_25_ARB_v1_m56577569830570245.pdf

and here are the reels.  except for the width of the spool, frame and spool shaft, the reels are identical.  these reels were shipped in from hawaii.  the freespool was very poor, but these reels were still in good enough shape to kill fish. 



by now, you all know the drill.  pull the preprogram dial (key #9), the dial spring (key #82), the lever shaft body and "O" seal (key# 10 and 11), and the drag control lever (key #83).



remove the lever quadrant (key #192) and screws (key #19, 21 and 86).



remove the seven side plate bolts (key #24).



separate out the frame, spool and right side plate assemblies.



let's start with the frame first.  grease up the click spring (key #101) and click pawl (key #231).



these old wing nut clamps are great for gouging up the gelcoat of a boat.  let's get rid of them.



the graphite clamps are much better.  ok, that's it for the frame. 



now for the spool.  once again, the cooling shield (key #89) was loose.  note the rubber gasket that seals up the drag chamber when the reel is in gear.  remember to keep this and all of the shimano graphite lever drag reels in gear when they will be exposed to water. 



remove the drag plate assembly (key #196, 60, 91 and 31) and set it aside with the cooling shield. 



now for the left side of the spool.  remove cross pin B (key #50).



remove the click gear (key #98) and screws (key #99).



pull the main shaft (key #173), keeping the bellevilles, thrust washers and bearings in order.





these bearing are gummed up, but not rusted.  with a small pen knife, pry out the shields and let's clean them out with carb cleaner and compressed air, then lube them with corrosion x.  by cleaning the bearings rather than replacing them, we'll save someone $40-50!







now we're going to change the configuration of the bellevilles (pre-load springs).  the original orientation of the pre-load washer A (key #72) and the pre-load spring B's (key #96) is "|()()" and the thickness is 4.61 mm.



we're going to toss the flat washer and add a fifth pre-load spring B.  the new configuration will be "(()))" and the thickness is 4.52 mm.



back into the spool it goes.



grease the screw holes.



install the click gear (key #98), screws (key #99) and cross pin B (key #50).



now for the right side of the spool.  the replacement drag washer is the drag washer used in the two speed shimano tld 20/30 II, part #TT-0246.  the tabs were cut off with wire cutters.  then i found an impact socked that fit the center hole just perfectly.  i carefully held the drag washer against a grinder so that it would spin, and ground the drag washer down to the exact same size as the stock washer. don't worry about not having the same tabs as the stock washer.  the tabs are not needed. 



apply a thin coat of shimano drag grease to the spool.



apply a thin coat of grease to both sides of the drag washer and press it into place.



rub off all the excess grease.



install the bearings (key #216) and pressure release spring (key #202).



you will notice a small amount of play in the drag plate assembly.  that play needs to be eliminated.  pop out the seal lock (key #31).



from left to right, you see the seal lock (key #31), the drag plate (key #91), pre-load spring A (key #60) and the pinion guard (key #196).  what i am holding is a stainless steel washer that my machine shop buddy punched out for me.  this replaces the 4 layers of masking tape that you saw in the tld 20/30 two speed upgrade post. 



it there is ALOT of play in the drag plate assembly, install pre-load spring A in the "down" position to take up more play.  normally you can install pre-load spring "up" position.



install the drag plate assembly and cooling shield (key #89).



use the wrench (key #230) to tighten down the spooling shield. 



install the spool assembly back into the frame.  install the pinion gear (key #168).



ok, we're done with the frame and spool.  now we're on to the right side plate.  first, we need to get to the right main side plate bearing (key #215).  a "coffee grinder" sensation when you turn the handle says this bearing is shot.  it is always the first one to go out.



remove the handle screw (key #75), the handle nut (key #76), the handle (key #208), gear shaft shield (key #78), gear shaft thrust washer (key #79) and the main gear (key #166).  the dog (key #26) will fall out.



the original bearing was totally rusted, so the shields were removed from a new bearing, and the bearing was packed with grease. 



replace dog (key #26) and the main gear (key #166). 



these reels definitely need a handle upgrade.  tiburon makes a nice one.  http://www.tiburonengineering.com/html/t-bar_handles.html  reel colors makes one as well,  http://www.reelcolors.com/reelcolors_004.htm  this is the one that is made for me. 



install the gear shaft thrust washer (key #79), the gear shaft shield (key #78), the new handle, the handle nut (key #76) and the handle nut screw (key #75). 



install the right side plate assembly and screws (key #24).



install the lever quadrant (key #192) and screws (key #21, 19 and 86).



just a side note for a common problem.  one of the screw holes for the lever quadrant was stripped out.  a small copper strip was cut to fit the hole.  after running the screw back in, the copper strip held the screw just fine.






install the drag control lever (key #83) and push it down into the "free" position.



align the lever shaft body (key #11) so that it "nests" with the drag control lever and drop it in.   add a small amount of grease, then the dial spring (key #82) and the pre-program dial (key #9).



check the freespool.



check the maximum drag at strike before losing free spool.  you should be able to get at least 20 pound.  this particular reel was able to get 26 pound of drag at strike before freespool was lost.  when backed off to 12 pound of drag at strike, the freespool time was 60 seconds. 



you can clearly see the difference in size between the stock handle and the larger aftermarket handle. 



just a side note.  the tld 20 has nearly the same line capacity as the penn senator 113HL.  the tld 25 is nearly the same as the penn senator 113HLW.  for the tld 20 and 25, this means lots of line capacity, and now plenty of drag.  the problem is the graphite frame.  i am not aware of a single case of frame failure with these single speed tld's.  i am certain that the tld 20/25 frame can easily handle 15 pounds of drag at strike with no risk of frame failure.  it may be able to handle up to 18 pounds of drag at strike.  please do not exceed 18 pounds. 

so what this boils down to is straight 40-50 pound mono on a tld 20 with a 30% drag setting, and straight 50-60 pound mono on a tld 25 and the same 30% drag setting.  you see that 18 pound of drag at strike is the heaviest setting that i would ever recommend.  i believe the 18 pound strike setting for either reel is safe because i am aware of no cases of frame failure.  if anyone out there knows differently, please let me know.  i have no problem adjusting these numbers down.
Logged

for questions, send an e-mail to alantani@yahoo.com
alantani
admin
Administrator
Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9521



« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2008, 08:25:50 AM »

Originally written by ******** (12/8/2008  7:56 AM)

Quote
I just got (early from Santa) brand new TLD 25's - I am certain I want to upgrade the handles.  I don't think I want to upgrade the washer system yet.  These will be my offshore reels for targeting tuna - mahi - wahoo etc out of Ocean City.  What's the professional way to spool them?  Should I go good mono 30# or get into the 50# mono backing to 60# braid.  Honestly, what are your thoughts?  I'm on a budget and money is an object to me.

the handles are $37 each, plus probably $3 for shipping.  straight out of the box, these reels will deliver about #12 pounds at strike before losing freespool.  to bring the reels to their full potential, i will need you to crack them open and add a bellville washer to the left side of the spool and a shim washer to the drag pressure plate on the right side of the spool.  i will include those washers.  at that point, you can also service the bearings.  keep in mind that these four bearings are $12 each.  protect your investment and go through these bearings now.  it will save you money later.  

once all of that is done, you can go through and change out the drag washers at your leisure.  they are $19 each from either me or smoothdrag.com.  like i said, the single speed tld 20/25 is one of the most expensive reels to service because so much needs to be done.  

now, once the reels are serviced, you should be able to get up to 18#'s of drag at strike before losing freespool.  you can now load these reels with straight 30#, straight 40#, straight 50# or straight 60# mono, then set the strike drag to 30% of your line weight and you're all set.  for what you are describing, it sounds like straight 50# mono and a 12-15# drag setting would suit you well.  these reels are not worthy of spectra.  

« Last Edit: January 29, 2010, 09:34:09 AM by alantani » Logged

for questions, send an e-mail to alantani@yahoo.com
alantani
admin
Administrator
Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9521



« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2009, 08:11:39 AM »

Quote
The question I have is on my TLD 15. Decided to leave the bellevilles/spacers alone for now (glad I did-fewer variables to troubleshoot my problem). Degreased and oiled the 2 spool and 1 drag plate bearings (they were open).  Changed the drag washer to greased Carbontex. The only other thing I did was some 1200 grit polishing on the inside of the pinion gear and the spool shaft where the pinion rides - saw that on a thread on Bloody Decks you were part of. The drag feels great and the freespool is up to 35-40 seconds with 10# strike setting. The issue is I noticed when checking freespool that tilting the reel 45* to the right (like a right-handed caster would) causes the spool to stop in seconds (even when it's hauling a$$ at the start).  Tilting to the left does nothing (might even help a little).  I've got a TLD 20 single-speed that's never been apart, and tilting it left or right during freespool has no effect on it. I've used your site and the drawing to check my reassembly 3 times. Have you ever heard of this?  Any suggestions? Should I be concerned?

yeah, this "tilting to the right and stopping" business is found in any reel with a bearing sleeve that is cut too long.  the "c-clip" on the spool shaft that sits next to the right spool bearing functions as a bearing sleeve and it is "too long."  to fix it, you either need to shim the bearing cup or remove the c-clip and cut a bearing sleeve to fit.  as for the pinion gear, don't bother polishing it.  it actually does not affect freespool.  alan
Logged

for questions, send an e-mail to alantani@yahoo.com
alantani
admin
Administrator
Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9521



« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2009, 07:04:06 PM »

here's the link to the original post.....  http://www.bloodydecks.com/forums/shimano/66620-maylasian-shimano-tld-20-single-speeds.html#post1290562

i received a box of reels from a local party boat captain several weeks ago. he tells me he bought 30 of these all at once. i don't know how old they are, but he says that are all acting up.
 

 
now, remember, these reels live on the backs several of party boats in northern california. one had a main gear shaft that had seized up so badly that you could not turn the handle. i was lucky this time. i left it in the ultrasonic cleaner overnight and the next morning was able to pound it out. the last time i tried this, i broke the side plate. and all the rest of the handles had no evidence of grease at all! what really concerned me was the right main side plate bearing. four out of five of these $15 shimano bearings were rusted tight. again, not a drop of grease to be found.
 

 

 
so check the bottoms of your reels, gentlemen!
 

 

 
sorry about the bad news......

Quote from: sdfishkiller;640404
Fakes? or Japan is using Malaysia like USA uses China? Either way=crap!


i only know about these 5 reels. i am concerned about this captain's remaining 25. if everyone chimes in and says "bullshit," then we do not have a large scale problem. this post went up on 29 websites. i will know more later......

Quote from: AKSalmon;640407
I see these problems on a huge majority of the TLDs and Charter Specials I see in my shop. Almost all of the Shimano pre-ARB pinion bearings need to be replaced; only occasionally do the spool bearings go bad. This is not a problem of just the Malaysia made reels. These problems crop up if the reels are not serviced annually and water gets inside. My guess is you'll find water stains on the drag washers too...

actually, bill, you can see the drag washers in the photo above. no water stains at all!

Quote from: AKSalmon;640409
That's surprising, or at least different than the vast majority of the TLD20s and 25s I see in my shop. Up here people use tem for halibut with straight 80# spectra. The plastic frame means that the reel torques under the stress of a tight drag and a 100# fish. All sorts of problems crop up from the heavy stress: Very often the gears are shotand almost often the pinion bearing is bad. I'm not sure why the drag washer typically has water stains. It could be that charter captains keep their reels outside in rocket launchers all season long, but whatever the cause, it's very commom. When I replace the drag washer I use some Cal's Drag grease to smooth things out even on the canvas Shimano drags, but the new Carbontex drags are so much better (although also very expensive) that I no longer stock Shimano drag washers.


Quote from: Pacific Fisher;1290562
I bought a used but like new, made in Malaysia, TLD 25, and thanks to Alan's post about no grease on the main bearings, I opened it up. Sure enough, no grease except for a small dab in one spot on the outside. Clearly whoever assembled the reel was going through the motions on greasing. I probably would too considering how much they were being paid.

I was lucky, the reel had hardly been used if at all, and the bearings had no rust.

 

I then ordered and installed the TLD 2 speed carbon drag washer and modified the washer stack per Alan's hot rodding instructions. A lot more drag capability for sure now.

I do not think that there is any other reason to worry about the Malaysian models if you take them apart and lube, as the parts are still the same.

 

Thanks once again Alan for the heads up.
Logged

for questions, send an e-mail to alantani@yahoo.com
alantani
admin
Administrator
Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9521



« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2009, 09:26:35 PM »

Quote
Hi Alan,

I received everything on Friday and your check is in today's mail.  Thank you!

I serviced the reel on Saturday for fishing on Sunday.  The reason I started working on this reel in the first place was that it had no freespool unless I backed the preselect way off to the point there was almost no drag in strike position.  Unfortunately, after servicing following your tutorial, I seem to have the same problem.  It is perhaps slightly improved.  Some of the details below:

-   I removed the shield from all the shaft bearings and seemed to be in good condition – no rust and all spun freely.  Still, I cleaned all with carb cleaner and lubed with ReelX.  The right main side plate bearing was also in good shape but I cleaned the old grease out and lubed with blue grease.

-   I removed the flat washer and installed the 5 pre-load spring B’s with the configuration "(()))"

-   I installed the shim washer, with the preload spring “A” in the down position, but there still was play so I took it back apart and installed the preload spring in the up position.  After the second installation, there was no play.

When I was done I had about 75 seconds free spool as long as the preprogram dial was backed off enough to get freespool.  However, when I adjusted the preprogram dial until I got 10 pounds drag at the strike position, I lost all freespool.  In order to regain freespool, I must back off the preselect a little less than a half turn, about 160 to 170 degrees.  I did not measure how much drag I had at strike with that preselect setting, but it was very little, perhaps a couple pounds at most.

So…what gives?  Did I do something wrong?  Is there something else I must do?

P.S.  The drag is sweet.  Smooth as butter.


i'm going to assume that the installation is correct and you have no broken belleville washers.  could the pressure plate be seriously cockeyed?  you trued it up with washer!  review the rebuild tutorial if you need to, but i'm guessing you did not make a mistake in the rebuild.  first thing.  set the drag to 15 pounds and pull on the line.  this will "seat" everything properly.  now back off on the lever and see if you get freespool.  didn't work, did it......

with the reel assembled, throw the lever back and forth and make sure the spool snaps left to right properly.  if not, the spool shaft could be getting stuck in that hole in the left side plate.  unlikely, but possible......

back the preset knob way off until the spool spins freely.  then turn the preset knob down until you can spin the spool and you loose freespool.  check the drag again.  only 10 pounds, huh?  ok, next......

nothing worked, right?  ok, call shimano at 877-577-0600 and order up a new lever.  yours might be worn.  keep me posted.  alan
Logged

for questions, send an e-mail to alantani@yahoo.com
alantani
admin
Administrator
Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9521



« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2010, 12:52:21 PM »

http://www.ifish.net/board/showthread.php?p=2964165#post2964165

Quote from: Bait O' Eggs;2964165
I have been pretty impressed with my Shimano TLD 25 reels. For $125/piece off ebay they have done their job. I know they are not the machined gold reels and will not hold up as well, but they are doing what I ask of them. Before they saw the salt the first time I stripped them down and packed all the bearings in grease, greased every screw and surface inside and out. Every winter I have stripped them down and regreased and cleaned them up. They have spent 4 years as being the work horse on the boat.
 
Last fall I ordered 6 carbon fiber drag washers for them and a pound of Cals drag grease. I finally got around to this winters make over on them. Each year the dry drag washers get a little darker with wear. I knew I could have flipped them over and probably got another 4 years from the same washers on the backside. But Alan Tani touts the greased carbon fiber and I wanted to give it a shot.
 
I found it interesting the wear patterns on the drag washers. 2 of the reels dont show much wear with the black marks, :shrug: two reels looked like they wore pretty even from inside to outside on the wear surface :throb: and two of them had a distinct wear spot making a circle from probably a high spot on the surfaces. Sad
 
 
 

 
After handling the carbon fiber drag washers I cant image ever wearing them out. They are way tougher than the factory ones in the pics. They feel pretty smooth with the grease on the drag, but I want to feel something pulling on the other end before I pass to much judgement.
 
For the first time I found evidence of some water inside a reel. :doh: One of the outer bearings the grease looked white and milky. I cleaned it up and repacked it. After looking closer I see one of the glue on stickers with the factory names fell off the side of the reel, opening up a hole where the spool shaft mounts allowing water around the shaft to the bearing. I packed it with grease and will keep an eye on that reel. With the bearing packed in grease it didnt do any visible damage.
 
In a few years I will show the carbon fiber drag washers after they each have a couple hundred fish under their belt.
Logged

for questions, send an e-mail to alantani@yahoo.com
alantani
admin
Administrator
Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9521



« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2010, 08:16:04 PM »

Quote

Alan thanks so much for the washers I got them today.  If I owe you anymore money please let me know.  I have a question though.  I did the up grade on one of my reels today.  This reel is brand new and used only 5 times.  I followed you post to the T.  I am only getting 5 seconds of free spool when I checked.  I went though the reel 3 more time and I get the same results.  I used carb cleaner on the bearings to clean them and TSI-301 to lub them.  When I take the reel apart and take the cooling sheild  off and loosen the clicker gear I get unbelievable free spool.  Put the cooling sheild on tight and clicker gear on tight and maybe 20 second.  Put the reel back together and 5 second.  I hope I explained this ok.  Do you have any ideas of what to do.  Thanks.


any grease on the lip of the cooling shield?  is it draging there somehow?

Quote
I don't know what I did,but I tore the reel down again and was able to get 53 seconds of free spool and max drag was 28lbs. Thanks for all you help.

welcome to my world........ Grin

Logged

for questions, send an e-mail to alantani@yahoo.com
alantani
admin
Administrator
Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9521



« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2010, 10:47:57 PM »

Hi Alan, I am not sure if my message I sent earlier made it because I had nothing in my outbox so I am going to try again. I just pulled my 15 year old TLD 20 apart and greased everything and replaced the main drive shaft bearing. It free spools great and everything feels smooth. The problem I am having is when it is in free spool the preprogram dial is in towards the reel like it should be and all is well. When I engage the drag to strike, it pops out like it should but when I move it back into free spool the dial will not pop back towards the reel until I just slightly nudge it in a clockwise direction. At this point it goes back into free spool. I took it all apart and checked everything and all seems well.. Any ideas?  Thanks, Ryan 

check the left side plate.  often the graphite will swell and the spool shaft will not travel right to left as easily as it should.  see the hole for the spool shaft and cross pin?  yup, it's probably binding right there. 



pull the spool shaft and cross pin out of the spool.  first, take the spool shaft alone and see how well it fits.  if it's too tight, go in with a round file and lightly file each side of the hole, then recheck it.  ok, it spool shaft slides easily now?  good.  let's check the cross pin. 

install the cross pin into the spool shaft and try sliding it in and out of the hole in the left side plate.  it's stuck as well?  no surprise.  get a small flat file and file down all four surfaces of the slot that the cross pin fits into.  again, do  this slowy.  too much and you'll need a new frame.  get this right and the reel should pop in and out of gear easily. um, if that is the problem.........   Undecided
« Last Edit: May 19, 2011, 07:17:09 PM by alantani » Logged

for questions, send an e-mail to alantani@yahoo.com
Cast-Away
Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 8


« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2011, 08:59:32 AM »

Two questions, I own a couple TLD 25's that are about 5 years old, they're in good shape and I service them regularly. 

1)They have the stock drag washers from Shimano, same as in your photo above.  Since they were dry when they came from the factory I have never greased them but a friend of mine insists that all drag washers should be greased.  What should I do?  Eventually I will upgrade to carbon fiber but they work fine the way they are so I'm not inclined to mess with it.

2) The bearings are fine but other than cleaning the outside of them with a little light oil I have not done anything to them.  I have never taken the bearing cover off to lube the inside as you describe above, should I do that now or leave it the way it is?  It looks like when you pry off the cover you damage the cover with the screw driver.  After you grease the inside of the bearing do you straighten out that cover and put it back on somehow or do you just discard the cover and leave the bearing open?     
Logged
alantani
admin
Administrator
Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9521



« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2011, 04:01:31 PM »

keep your canvas drag washers absolutely dry and they will be fine.  someday they will stick, but hopefully not someday soon.  if you grease canvas, it will stick immediately.  sorry. 

to grease a bearing with a pressed in shield, you will need a bearing packer.  for spool bearings, keep them open and oiled for the best freespool.  once you "dig" out a shield, it will be damaged and cannot be re-installed. 
Logged

for questions, send an e-mail to alantani@yahoo.com
TonyFriend
Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 31


« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2011, 09:28:45 PM »

Alan, in your tutorial for the TLD20/25, you write "i carefully held the drag washer against a grinder so that it would spin, and ground the drag washer down to the exact same size as the stock washer. don't worry about not having the same tabs as the stock washer.  the tabs are not needed."

I have two TLD20s that you worked over, and they have carbon fiber drag washers with no tabs (I call them "ears"). From the slight score marks, it looks as though the drag washer is rotating against the spool. The carbon fiber washer  should drag against the drag disc, and be held steady against the reel spool. It looks to me as though the tabs should be needed. Comments?
Logged
alantani
admin
Administrator
Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9521



« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2011, 08:51:15 AM »

tony, that could very well be the case if the drags were cut two small.  the spool cap should crunch down onto the outer edges of the drag washer and hold it in place.  i have the carbontex drag washers and can send them to you if you will send me a pm with your address again.  they are tabbed. 
Logged

for questions, send an e-mail to alantani@yahoo.com
Johan Fourie
Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 4


« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2011, 02:40:24 AM »

Hi Allen - please help. I can't seem to open the link to the schematics for the TLD 20/25.  Huh? My server gives an ERROR - 404 - NOT FOUND message.
Regards. Johan.
Logged
george.s
Member
*
Online Online

Posts: 53



« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2011, 03:39:49 AM »

here it is.
http://fish.shimano.com/media/fishing/techdocs/en/TLD20_v1_m56577569830498881.pdf
http://fish.shimano.com/media/fishing/techdocs/en/TLD25_v1_m56577569830498887.pdf
Logged
Johan Fourie
Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 4


« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2011, 04:02:09 AM »

Thanks George.S - really appreciate the help. Regards. Johan.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 6 ... 10   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines
Simple Audio Video Embedder
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.114 seconds with 16 queries.