1+7 Drag Stack in a 114H Senator

[George4741]

Last week Sal, Bryan, and I were going back and forth about the possibility of installing a 1+7 drag stack in a 114H.  I did some measurements and decided it can be done if I can find some proper fitting 0.5mm thick carbontex washers.  I settled on Smoothdrag's #59 washer.  The diameter is too large and the hole is too small, but I've modified carbontex washers before.  


A 6-115 HT100 and a #59 carbontex.  Quite a bit of material must be removed from the carbontex.


Here is the assembled 1+7 drag stack.  Notice how the last eared washer sits flush in the gear.

Reducing the diameter of the washers didn't go without a hitch.  They are so thin and flexible that I damaged some of them on the grinder.  I finished reducing the outer diameter on a bench mounted belt sander and used a dremel to open up the hole.  The washers are all useable, but some of them are not pretty.  Maybe someone can find a better way to reduce the diameter.

BTW this will work on the 9/0 Senator since they use the same main gear and washers.

Now, you owners of a black 114 Senator needn't feel left out.  It is still a very formidable reel and it also has room for a 1+7 drag stack.  This is easier than the 114H because Smoothdrag's #21 carbontex is the correct diameter; just the hole must be enlarged to fit on the gear sleeve.  
 

A 0.5mm carbontex and a 6-114 HT100.


The assembled 1+7 drag stack (black 114 Senator).  The 114 metal washers are thinner than the 114H, so you have extra room to play with.

DISCLAIMER: These modifications are untested and may result in damage to your reel.  Proceed with caution.

[Bryan Young]

Nice George.  Yeah, Sal and I have been debating the benefits for over a year now but settled on making other improvements because the 7+1 ratio, if you take it to it's limits, may shread gears unless you have steel or stainless steel gears, and didn't want to be responsible for this.

I guess it is...know your limits.

[john2244]

Nice work George .   What drag numbers are you getting out of each reel??
John

[George4741]

Bryan, you're comments are noted.  Obviously this is untested.  I hope I don't have to add a disclaimer.  I'm not a wealthy man.

Nice work George .   What drag numbers are you getting out of each reel??
John

I don't know, as I just finished it up.  I also don't have a scale, but I could use the water bucket method.
George

I just added a disclaimer to the first post.
Regards, George

[Bryan Young]

George, I love it by the way.  It's all about limits.  I put in a 5+1 stack in my PG 251.  Essentially, it has jigmaster guts.  I could get easily 18-20# of drag, but my spool started rubbing, and I also shreaded some gears...bad... I replaced the gears and at 12#, it's smooooooth.

[George4741]

Alrightee, update on the 1+7 drag experiment.  I tested my 114H to 45.8 lbs.  A little more effort and I can lock the drags down completely with this weight.  I'm not going to test my reel with any heavier drag, as I only have the stock Penn bronze main gear and I don't want to damage it.  I wouldn't want to try holding onto a fish with this much drag without being strapped in a chair.  It wouldn't be fun.
  George

[Alto Mare]

Very nice george. Let me know what size washers you used... if you don't mind. The stock gears should handle 45lb, but I'm sure that you will hear different from others here . If that 6/0 has a full Tib frame, I wouldn't worry about  pushing it. I believe that gears fail  from the reel twisting under load, knocking the gears out of alignment. If you have a full frame andt he double dogs, you should not have any problems. Now, thanks to your idea, I need to open a couple of dozen reels to upgrade . Good job George .

[George4741]

Thank you, Sal.  I used Smoothdrag's #59 carbontex and Penn's stock 114H metal washers.  Also, a 6-114 HT100 under the main gear.  The Carbontex were oversized and I did a less than pristine job of grinding them to size, but they work.  In the meantime Dawn told me she recommends her #45A and #45B carbontex for the 114H.  They are undersized compared to the stock HT100's, which is why I didn't initially choose them.  Here are some dimensions in INCHES (I'm too lazy to do the inch to metric conversion thing ).

WASHER#     OUTER DIA.     THICKNESS
#45A           1.128             0.025
#45B           1.136             0.030
HT100          1.161             0.041

I'm going to change the #59 washers for Dawn's #45C.  Their dimensions are 1.130 in. dia and 0.020 in. thick.  Much less material to remove and seven of them will fit in my 114H, no problem.

[Keta]

Nice!

I feel if we can stick a 1.161 OD washer in the gear we should, even if we have to remove a lot of material from the #59 washers.


Sanwhich your Carbontex washers between metal drag when resizing to help keep them from flopping around.  For the OD use an old bridge, gear sleeve, keyed metal washers spacers and star hold the washer together and resze the entire stack at one time using a belt sander.

[George4741]

BTW, I have an Accurate frame, but haven't yet installed a second dog.  I won't push my reel this hard again until I do.  I'm thankful to Penn for overbuilding these reels.

Sal, what would someone use a brute of a reel like this for, anyway?  What will you use your 114H WEX for?  I imagine they wouldn't be someone's first choice for cow tuna.  I've heard those guys often use a 30 or 50 class lever drag 2-speed reel.  

Another thing, I don't fully understand the drag numbers.  For example, take an old 114H with an original 3-drag stack; suppose it maxes out at 20lb drag.  If you put 45lb on will the line continue to peel off of the spool and the drags won't lock up, or what?  Then take my reel that benches at 45lb.  At what point do I know I've exceeded the max drag capabilities?      
 George

[George4741]

Nice!

I feel if we can stick a 1.161 OD washer in the gear we should, even if we have to remove a lot of material.


Sanwhich your Carbontex washers between metal drag when resizing to help keep them from flopping around.  For the OD use an old bridge, gear sleeve, keyed metal washers spacers and star hold the washer together and resze the entire stack at one time using a belt sander.

Thanks for the tip, Lee.  It is certainly easier than the way I did it.

[Alto Mare]

BTW, I have an Accurate frame, but haven't yet installed a second dog.  I won't push my reel this hard again until I do.  I'm thankful to Penn for overbuilding these reels.

Sal, what would someone use a brute of a reel like this for, anyway?  What will you use your 114H WEX for?  I imagine they wouldn't be someone's first choice for cow tuna.  I've heard those guys often use a 30 or 50 class lever drag 2-speed reel. 

Another thing, I don't fully understand the drag numbers.  For example, take an old 114H with an original 3-drag stack; suppose it maxes out at 20lb drag.  If you put 45lb on will the line continue to peel off of the spool and the drags won't lock up, or what?  Then take my reel that benches at 45lb.  At what point do I know I've exceeded the max drag capabilities?     
  George

BTW, I have an Accurate frame, but haven't yet installed a second dog.  I won't push my reel this hard again until I do.  I'm thankful to Penn for overbuilding these reels.

Sal, what would someone use a brute of a reel like this for, anyway?  What will you use your 114H WEX for?  I imagine they wouldn't be someone's first choice for cow tuna.  I've heard those guys often use a 30 or 50 class lever drag 2-speed reel. 

Another thing, I don't fully understand the drag numbers.  For example, take an old 114H with an original 3-drag stack; suppose it maxes out at 20lb drag.  If you put 45lb on will the line continue to peel off of the spool and the drags won't lock up, or what?  Then take my reel that benches at 45lb.  At what point do I know I've exceeded the max drag capabilities?     
  George

George, this is all new to us and it needs to be tested on the water, not just on a scale. All we can hope for is that we don't sacrifice our reels. The 6/0 and 9/0 have similar drags, appr. 25lb, I know that they could handle around 30lb, pushing them around 40lb,needs to be tested, I still think they could handle it.
About my WEX, I know of a few shark tournament guys that would snatch it out of my hands in a flash. Did I need it? No! But I had to have it and hopefully one day I'll get to use it.
About the drags, more washers equal more pressure. Being able to gradually increase that much pressure, I believe that your reel can bring in that tuna with less effort, it will also feel smoother. The last tuna  put me out of work for a week, a few years back.

I will definitely give this a shot, but I'm trying it on one first and see how that goes. I still believe that you have a good thing going here George. All we need now are some Accurate gears.

[Keta]

A mix up with the water cutter ended up with me having 10 sets of .035" 349H metal washer rather than the Daiwa 50 washers I wanted.  Last night I got out a 349H gear and started looking in to sticking in 2 more washers.  I noticed the milled grooves for the eared washers was not full depth with .035" keyed washers and thin Carbontex washers and the ears bottomed out.  This might be a non issue with the 114H and the slightly thicker Penn metal washers.  I "fixed" the problem by using a thicker bottom keyed washer and still have room for the extra thin washers.
Now I need a 114H to tinker with.

[reelgood]

Thanks for the cool writeup...so what is the final verdict on the parts needed to hotrod a 114H?  I have one of the last US made ones never touched it was going to sell it but now seems like a fun project.  The gear ratio might make it tough to really crank on a fish but I guess a longer handle could fix that, in addition to making the gears easier to destroy

7 x #45C carbontex
1 x 6-114 HT100

do you have the part #'s of the metal washers needed from Penn?

Where do you get the double dog parts?

[Makule]

A mix up with the water cutter ended up with me having 10 sets of .035" 349H metal washer rather than the Daiwa 50 washers I wanted.  Last night I got out a 349H gear and started looking in to sticking in 2 more washers.  I noticed the milled grooves for the eared washers was not full depth with .035" keyed washers and thin Carbontex washers and the ears bottomed out.  This might be a non issue with the 114H and the slightly thicker Penn metal washers.  I "fixed" the problem by using a thicker bottom keyed washer and still have room for the extra thin washers.
Now I need a 114H to tinker with.

Lee, bring me up to speed here.  You were working on a 349H reel, if I recall.  Why would you need Diawa 50 washers?

When I ran into that same situation with the thinner washers and the slots being too shallow, I ground out the slots so that they were deeper.  The gear steel is very hard, so it took a while, but eventually the slots get deep enough to do the job.

If you really want to tinker with a 114H, I have one you can borrow.  Of course, I get to keep the modifications.    It's one of the anniversary models and is in very good shape, but I'm not using it at the moment (but will as soon as you juice it up).

I also could use some of those 349H washers as I'm getting a couple of them today.