penn drag washer surface area

[andrew_g]

Hi all,

I was playing around with some numbers and I was wondering what the relationship is between drag and total drag surface area. I took the numbers Alan posted a while back of the inner and outer diameter of some penn ht-100 drag washers. I converted the millimeter amounts into inches and calculated the total square inches of some penn reel ht-100 washers.

Here is my methodology of finding the total square inches of ht-100 drag washers for a particular reel:

Take the 49l

the inner diameter of the ht-100 washers is 10.55 millimeters. The outer diameter is 28.67. I divided each amount by 25.4 to convert it to inches. The inner diameter becomes .4154 inches and the outer diameter becomes 1.1129 inches. I then found the area of the entire washer, and subtracted the area of the hole in the middle for the gear sleeve. Each side of one HT-100 washer is .8651 inches squared. Since there are three drag washers in a 49 and each drag washer has 2 sides, I multiplied .8651 by 6 and got 5.02 inches squared. Therefore, a penn 49l has about 5 square inches of total surface area.

I did these calculations for other reels too. The numbers and reels are as follows:

beachmaster 155 (uses three HT-100s): 1.517 inches squared
Jigmaster/309 (uses three HT-100s): 3.571 inches squared
310GT2 (uses 5 HT-100s): 3.716 inches squared
114 Black side plate (uses 5 Ht-100s): 4.361 inches squared
49L Mariner (uses three HT-100s): 5.02 inches squared
113h (uses five HT-100s): 6.807 inches squared
115l (uses 5 HT-100s): 7.926 inches squared
116l (uses 7 HT-100s): 13.55 inches squared
117l (uses 7 HT-100s): 20.75 inches squared

What surprises me is the max drag some of the above reels are rated for. For example, a jigmaster maxes out at around 15 pounds of drag, but a 49 mariner, which has significantly more drag surface area is said to not have too much. Also, Penn rates the 209 (which has the exact same drag stack as the beachmaster 155) as maxing out at 10 pounds of drag. This is two thirds of 15, but it only has 1/3 of the drag surface area of the jigmaster. Similarly, the great 117l senator which has a whopping 20.75 square inches of drag surface area is only rated as having 35 pounds of drag, whereas the venerable 113h, has less than 1/3 of that and is said to have a max drag of 20 pounds. What do you guys think the relationship between drag size and max drag is? After working through these numbers, I am not sure. Thanks.

Andrew

[Keta]

Factor in gearing and in the case of the 49 weak construction for the size of the drag and gears.

[Alto Mare]

Factor in gearing and in the case of the 49 weak construction for the size of the drag and gears.

I have seen spools and gear sleeves fail on the 49, but not gears

[Alto Mare]

You bring up a good point Andrew. Since you're at it, try the Baja Special, this is the one that surprised me the most. The 113H Tank has two more washers than the Baja and it is rated at around 18lb, the Baja is rated at 27lb...with paper thin metal washers.
You will never be able to fit more than three washers in the Baja, we have the option to fit seven in the Tank .

[andrew_g]

I don't have a 113HN and don't know the numbers. I did just calculate that the 330LD drag washer is 5.479 inches squared. Penn rates it as having  a max drag of 17 pounds. Maybe this makes sense, I don't know, but it puts it in the same category as the 49l in terms of HT-100 surface area. I was surprised at the 117l though. 21 square inches of ht-100 surface area is some serious drag. That is equivalent to a sheet of ht-100 material 4.56 X 4.56. That's quite a bit. I have never fished the reel, (all of my fishing is surf fishing and cod fishing) but if you read offshore fishing forums, everyone advises that you gO with a 130VSX and leave the star drags at home if you're after bluefin tuna. I've never felt lever drags had that much of an advantage over star drags. All they do is make it easier to adjust the drag settings. I just love the old penn reels. That's all I use from the surf and from the boat. A few years ago while I was codfishing on a party boat, a guy a few feet from me successfully fought and landed a 170 lb bluefin tuna on a stock penn 113h with ht-100 washers. The reel handled it fine. For bigger fish, the 14/0 -with a line capacity of 4000 yards of 130 lb braid (1000 yards of 130 mono) and a max drag of 35 lbs which I'm sure can go higher into the mid 40s- would seem to me to have no problem subduing a tuna larger than 500 pounds. But, I digress. The only thing that comes to mind is that heat dissipation is easier with one large washer than 3, 5, or 7, smaller ones sandwiched together.

[George4741]

Andrew,
Interesting stuff.  I'm glad you took the time to compute these figures.  Anyway you look at it, size still matters. 

I wonder, though, how effective both sides of the HT100's are?  For example, if each HT100 was glued to a keyed washer, would the drag be reduced by half?  The washer would still have friction against the eared washers and main gear, providing some drag.  I dunno.... 

About the Baja Special, even though there are four CF drag washers, the first one only uses one side for drag.  The other side of the washer rotates with the main gear.  Both sides of the other CF washers provide friction against the metal washers.  So if we computed the drag area of a Baja Special CF washer and multiplied it x7, I believe that would be the true drag surface area.

This looks like something Robert Janssen might find interesting.  Maybe he will chime in here. 

[doradoben]

I would think factoring in spool diameter has much to do with drag capability. Measuring drag with the spool half full is going to give a significantly different number than  full of line. Even though a reel with a 6 inch diameter spool has 2 or 3 times more drag washer area than Sal's 4/0 tank, it may not make much more drag.

[Alto Mare]

Doraboden, good point. Yes the spool size has a lot to do with it, that's why I mentioned the Baja and the Tank. You also make a good point George. By the way, the ears on the Baja's drags don't have any contact, making them smaller than the Tank's.
No I'm not done comparing the two, some of the specs still don't make sense to me .

Back to your statistics Andrew, sorry.
Sal

[Alto Mare]

Andrew,
Interesting stuff.  I'm glad you took the time to compute these figures.  Anyway you look at it, size still matters. 

I wonder, though, how effective both sides of the HT100's are?  For example, if each HT100 was glued to a keyed washer, would the drag be reduced by half?  The washer would still have friction against the eared washers and main gear, providing some drag.  I dunno.... 

About the Baja Special, even though there are four CF drag washers, the first one only uses one side for drag.  The other side of the washer rotates with the main gear.  Both sides of the other CF washers provide friction against the metal washers.  So if we computed the drag area of a Baja Special CF washer and multiplied it x7, I believe that would be the true drag surface area.

This looks like something Robert Janssen might find interesting.  Maybe he will chime in here. 

You're one smart cookie, George . Rotation and contact creates drags, I come up with the same number  on the Tank with (5+1) and the Baja (3+1)...due to their design, that number is 7. Keep in mind, we can add two more washers in the Tank, not able to add anymore in the Baja.

[George4741]

The Baja has four CF drags, so it is a 1+4.

[Dr. Jekyll - AKA MeL B]

first of all i'm not an engineer. having said that i think the reasonwhy the new generation of SD reels frompenn generate more drag is because of the new design in their CF washers, these new washers have multiple ears in them which are permanently held in place.  with this design there  is no  way for the CF washers to rotate with the metal washers, not like the older design, where as the probability that the CF washers will rotate in conjunction with the metal ones is high. it is for this reason that i think the new  penn SD's  generate more drag and also the reason why started buying penns  but unfortunately the ones i can afford now  are made in china. i hope this explains the big "WHY"...

[Alto Mare]

The Baja has four CF drags, so it is a 1+4.

You're right George, I do see 4 in the bag, thanks for pointing that out. It is still 7 that make contact though.

first of all i'm not an engineer. having said that i think the reasonwhy the new generation of SD reels frompenn generate more drag is because of the new design in their CF washers, these new washers have multiple ears in them which are permanently held in place.  with this design there  is no  way for the CF washers to rotate with the metal washers, not like the older design, where as the probability that the CF washers will rotate in conjunction with the metal ones is high. it is for this reason that i think the new  penn SD's  generate more drag and also the reason why started buying penns  but unfortunately the ones i can afford now  are made in china. i hope this explains the big "WHY"...

That make perfect sense to me, Mel , thanks!
I do wonder what would happen to the ears on those washers, if I had them in my 14/0 , Maybe I would get ground pepper

[George4741]

Mel,
There's no doubt that the new versadrags generate more drag.  I think in several of the reels it is too much.  For example, I believe Penn considers the Fathom 12 a 30lb reel, yet lists it at a max drag of 25lb.  That's a little more than I would want for 30lb line.  Some novices out there will overtighten the drag and have breakoffs.   (I've done that )  Although I'm sure some of larger Fathoms could use the 25lb drag setting.  I also worry about damaging gears and other things at higher drag settings.  Of course, this is coming from a guy who suggests a 1+7 in their 113H, 6/0 and 9/0.  

About affording American made Penns, one word: EBAY!   Unless you prefer versadrag reels.

I do wonder what would happen to the ears on those washers, if I had them in my 14/0 , Maybe I would get ground pepper

I also wonder....

[Robert Janssen]

Um, yes...what is going on here...okay...

Yes, you're all on the right track.

The two criteria which greatest affect the sum total of drag are 1) the number of sliding surfaces, and 2) distance from center of rotation or mean diameter of friction surface.

So, square inches are good and nice, and they are of course part of it, but not really enough to fully quantify the whole drag scenario thing here.*

About washers:

Since there are three drag washers in a 49 and each drag washer has 2 sides, I multiplied...

No, don't do that. Since the friction washers are floating and only one side can be presumed to be in relative motion, it is only permissible to use one side for calculative purposes.

About spool radius and gear ratio:

Yes, that matters too. Not only as a result of the greater lever arm and inherent moment of torque of a larger diameter spool vs a smaller one, but it should also be considered that the reel's gear ratio offers a mechanical advantage when operated in reverse- as is the case on an outgoing line.

So really, for a relatively fair, apples-to-apples comparison, i think it would only be possible to measure the force (torque) necessary to turn the gear sleeve against the drag, in this case by fixing the main gear against a locked spool. This would allow one reel's drag to be compared to another on mutual terms. However, it says nothing about how that said reel's drag would compare to another's while in actual use.

About eared drag washers and sliding surfaces:

This matters a lot. By using winged HT-100 washers, the eared steel washers (1/3 of a drag stack) become superfluous and allow that space to be utilized more effectively. Further, the eared washers allow both sides to be used, further increasing the number of sliding surfaces by another 1/3.

Like this:




Which is what we touched on page 4 in another thread, here:

http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=4627.msg38513#msg38513

So, a 5+1 or 7+1 drag might be nice, but the same reel with eared washers would be more like 8+1 or 11+1 or however many fit...and which is why i invented this gizmo here



...which is a drop-in converter which fits the standard Senator gear and allows use of hexagonal drag washers.

Doc.

*This thread discusses that stuff:
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=4593.0

.

[Keta]

...which is a drop-in converter which fits the standard Senator gear and allows use of hexagonal drag washers.

NICE!