Experimenting with the 113H drags

[Ron Jones]

That's the only area that will get hot due to the friction of the drags.

Unfortubnatly that is not entirely accurate. Heat will transfer into the spool and all the way out to the handle. I believe that BunnLevel Sharker is talking about something I have only heard about. Apparently, mono that is heated through the spool and then quenched with water can become brittle and weaken. I have heard many people complain about losing fish this way. I know that I just dumped water on the reel, belt, fisherman and anything else while we were running around and we never experienced the phenomenon, and I am happy about that!

Ron

[Bryan Young]

That is so true Ron.  I was only thinking of the sideplates...the left plate (for right handed reels) should not get too hot considering the contact point of the spool.

[Bunnlevel Sharker]

If your gonna pour water on a reel, especially if it has mono, then don't pour it all over! Just on the drag star and gear box area

Please explain why.

The sudden cool down can cause the mono to snap. The drag star gets the hottest, grease or not

[maxpowers]

I dremelled out the ss gear last night but awaiting to pick a CF sheet to test.  I left the OEM keyed slots in case this does not work out and I need to go back to a 5+1 or 7+1 system.

[David Hall]

What a great thread! As a new member here I have found myself gravitating to your posts, I started here just hoping to learn to do my own reel maintenence.  Reading the development of the Tank inspired me! Instead of just maintaining my 113h I have upgrade to all the great SS and CF parts I have found here.  I just finished double dogging the reel and thoroughly enjoy just spinning the sleeve and listneing to the music of the click.  Thank you for that!  
I am and have been for many many years a fellow shade tree engineer and a tinkerer at heart and I like where you're going with this.
Max smoooooth drag possible with lowest heat conduction! The heat build up cannot be avoided because it is a direct result of friction in the drag stack, it's got to go somewhere, the 113h drag stack is closed it has only so much space, so the heat does what heat does and it travels to areas that are less hot.  the vented disc brake in autos works because the vents create greater surface area for heat to move into the open air, finding a way to get the heat off the metal washers in a closed drag system is an awesome idea and venting the main gear may be a good direction because as soon as you reduce the heat retention you will be free to increase the friction once again, thinner metal washers?  Thinner CF washers?  More of each in the stack. Do I see 55lbs in the future?

[Alto Mare]

Thank you for your kind words David. About the 55lbs, I don't think so, I believe we did good with the numbers and shouldn't get too greedy ...but we're not done yet .
Sal

[gstours]

Hey Sal; I got an idea, in the racing motocross circuit, they use radiators and small elect pumps for cooling. In drag racing they use Ice and Dri ice paks to lay on Intake manifolds for extra cooling between runs, so what do you thing of a back pac ice rerecirculating coolant  in small hoses thru a jacket over the reel, maybe with a lo and hi button on the foregrip? and a led temp readout located by the first guide?
  I would love to design and test the first prototype but the wife has me real busy now!!!     cheers gst.   maybe after Christmas!

[Alto Mare]

Go for it buddy, I'll be anxiously waiting .

[Alto Mare]

Lee, I know you're  up already, you're like me .
From our latest conversation about drilling holes in the metal washers, i'm thinking that these might be better:

I'm liking the one on the lower left best, but both would do better.
I was testing a Jigmaster the other day, someone sent me some washers and I forgot all about them. Nothing fancy with the test, I simply tied the line on a post and gave a steady pull, appr. 5-6', keeping the line in the center of the spool.
I cranked the star down all the way and got around 30lbs, I repeated the test about 50 times and the handle screw got really hot.
I bet I would have felt the heat in my hand, if the handle wasn't drilled. A new design with the gear sleeve, using a c-clamp and a cap nut, instead of the handle screw would be a good improvement.

Back to the washers, I rather try Bryan's washers first, again let's go with the jigmaster it is a little easier to handle.
Since I'm a good boy...I think , maybe Bryan  could send you a set on him, so you could cut the slots, if not, I'll pay for them.
He might not be interested with the idea of the slots though, I know there are a few guys here that can get it done, so if it happens, I would appreciate it.
The width of the slots doesn't need to be wide, I'm not worried about grease getting caught in the slots, I just want a break in the metal.
I'm thinking 1/32", but whatever the cutter can give us.
From my testings with the drilled washers, I believe these will do a good job, we need to find the correct thickness and material, so they won't warp.
My drawing is not to scale, we could make the slots shorter, we could also use heat treated stainless or Ti...we have options.
Testing will let us know.
Let's get it done.

Sal

[Bryan Young]

Hey buddy, 

I'm up too.  Lol.  From a thermal dynamics view, the drags may be a little cooler because there is less metal to conduct heat.  Likewise, there is less surface friction area, so the drags would need to be clamped down more fore the same drag numbers.  This is just theory have you.  Regarding heat dissipation, the brakes in a star drag reel is still a closed system.  There is no venting, and therefore cooling is accomplished by the main gear and top washer along with the gear sleeve.  Therefore, I personally don't think it will work to reduce heat.  A lever drag reel where you can add fins or cooling slots to the pressure plate would probably help since it's an open system.

[Alto Mare]

Trying might give us a better answer, wouldn't you agree? Besides, I might change your mind the same way I will change it by using Delrin for under the gear ...eventually .
Seriously though, it doesn't cost much for us to give this a shot, I believe it would be nice to try it.

Read the phrase on my avatar, all the way down

Sal

[Bryan Young]

I'm not sure how much it will cost to cut a few washers.  It's better to probably get Lee or Adam to cut them as they can work by the pieces as they operate the machines and can usually get them cut on their time.  I have to hire someone to cut them...but I can get a price if you wish.

If you want to experiment by creating cross drills, I can send you a few.  I do use hardened stainless steel, so you would need good drill bits.  Let me know.

[crackerman]

Any time you have the same amount of pressure over a smaller area, pounds per square inch increases on the materials. I would like to see a series of holes or grooves cut into the washers, if nothing else, just to try. I would be more afraid of warpage due to inconsistent temperatures through the washers.
Also, the farther out from the center the drag can be applied, the more leverage the drag has.

The only experience i have with cross drilled or slotted aything is on brake rotors, where forces and temperature is MUCH higher. It does help, but also helps the pad wear faster.
You may want to copy a design similar to a hydraulic brake on a mountain bike. All the grooves headed the same direction in a spiral fashion.

[trond_solem]

The amount of energy used/consumed/converted by the drag system is the same with standard and holed/slotted washers.
Friction and force are converted to heat. Since this is a closed system, no energy will be lost, except heat transfer through the gear sleeve to the handle and drag star.
The measured difference may be caused by grease in the holes melted and drained out of the system, taking a lot of heat with it and transfering it to other parts of the reel.
The next time the drag is subjected to the same amount of work, there is no grease left to melt aand drain out and by this transfer the heat, and the heat buildup will be the same as with plain washers.
This is what I think about it, but by all means, please experiment with it. There may be other gains with different washers.

[steelfish]

........ Penn have all done extensive experiments and testing. (this, by the way, is where Penn found their name HT-100: High Temperature, 100 hours)

Doc.

thanks Doc, that's why I love spending few hours reading old posts, they keep a lot of good info.