Why carbontex under main gear?

[CapeFish]

Which brings us back to this.  https://docs.google.com/document/d/1W2ghsIY94YPnBYS9QhND-p_tpbvAJHGxilDgmlH4wxY/edit?pli=1

FWIW, I'm not on either side of this debate.  I have changed out many of my reels drags to Carbontex or HT100.  Of those that I've changed out, some have a carbon washer under the main gear and some still have the stock fiber washer.  I have not noticed any significant difference between the two.

OK great now I know why mine are all bumbing out, it is always on the bigger reels for shark where I crank the star down to hard. I am thinking of putting a dartanium back under the main gear to avoid this from happening as it shouldn't compress

[BMITCH]

OK great now I know why mine are all bumbing out, it is always on the bigger reels for shark where I crank the star down to hard. I am thinking of putting a dartanium back under the main gear to avoid this from happening as it shouldn't compress
Capefish, my point exactly. If not more drag. So why not some other material.
Bob

[CapeFish]

OK great now I know why mine are all bumbing out, it is always on the bigger reels for shark where I crank the star down to hard. I am thinking of putting a dartanium back under the main gear to avoid this from happening as it shouldn't compress
Capefish, my point exactly. If not more drag. So why not some other material.
Bob

I happen to have dartanium (which I think is just a marketing name for compressed pencil lead  ) available so will try that first

[Bryan Young]

Jonathan, that was an excellent write-up.

[Bucktail]

Bucktail,

Those are some valid arguments for the delrin/teflon washer that are included in that kit. What you do gain from the CF washer is more usable drag surface area. What that will do is decrease the overall friction that each individual drag washer that makes up the entire drag system is subjected to. Though gaining one extra pound (more like a few extra lbs.) of drag pressure at higher ranges doesn't seem like a lot, that will add longevity to your drag system because the applied load will be spread out over an additional drag washer. That means that the psi on each contact patch of drag washer to metal surface is decreased. We aren't speaking about a linear load curve. This would change depending on the drag setting being run. By adding CF in this location, we are creating a smoother felt drag. Note that surface area is not a linear calculation. It is exponential. Adding a pound to a few pounds at the high end means a lot more at the lower, real world drag settings. The amount of drag you gain will depend on usable surface area (diameter) of the AR Ratchet, surface area of the main gear, surface area due to diameter of the CF washer used, and the drag setting used.

In a test environment using a static load test, you may not notice this unless you are using some very sophisticated measuring devices which measure dynamically over a time variable. When you are gaining line on a fish, but that head turns on you and he starts running, you will feel the difference in how softly or harshly that drag engages. The harsher the drag engages, the more damage you are doing to wherever that hook is embedded. You want to cushion any of the pull on that area, no matter how brief that may be. An abrupt wall of drag pressure as the fish is headshaking or etc., will cause problem such as you losing that fish. Fishing is a dynamic art. It is about using the rod's action to soften those headshakes, but the reel must work in that area too. There is a soft, firm drag and there are on/off drags. We want smooth drag engagement as we transition from gaining line to giving line. There is much to gain by going to the CF under the main gear. It's only worthwhile if you have the ability to notice what you are gaining and realize there may be a theoretical tradeoff depending on your application. The difference between ordinary greased drags and extraordinary greased drags is just that little extra. I, too, have left the stock washer in place. I no longer do it. I want to gain a little here and a little there to squeeze out the most from my reel. Otherwise, the only thing we're doing is regreasing a stock reel. There is nothing we are gaining over stock trim except greased drags and better application of lubricants.

The problem with plastics such as Delrin (very popular in many fly reels) in fishing reels is the abrasive nature of salt crystals, oxidized particles, and mineral depositing. There is no fix-all material, method, lube, or process due to the high salinity environment of fishing for saltwater species. There is only constant maintenance. As soon as I feel my drags start to get sticky, I go through my reels. Some reels such as the smaller diameter single disc lever drags start to glaze rather quickly after a month's worth of fishing commercially- which is not a bad thing since I'm paying bills well at that point.  Nonetheless, fishing on smaller center consoles in rougher seas than say the Southeast to the Gulf will put a lot of mineral/salt deposits on many internal parts of your reel. Salt intrusion is something that can be retarded, at best.

I've been helping Alan with his back log in addition to the reels I acquire. I have yet to see one with roached CF under the main gear. I'm not saying that it is impossible because since working on reels, I have seen all kinds of FUBAR, but I have yet to see it. If I do run across it, I will replace it with a CF washer. I have seen normal HT-100s ground to bits due to inadequate rinsing and maintenance. The main reason is salt intrusion (salt crystals) mixed with carbon dust in the drag system.

Just for clarification, I did not write the article I linked to.  That was written by Aaron (Reel Speed)

[jonathan.han]

Increased surface area does not increase drag, it helps to dissipate heat though, the drag is determined by how much pressure is placed on the washers.

With a smaller diameter AR ratchet, you will be forced to use a smaller washer. However, I have placed uncut larger washers in there and have not seen any ill-effects from the "mung" (a combination of oil, grease, drag grease, and carbon dust/loose fibers). There is no effect on the reel's performance with this mung. Increasing surface area will equal more drag. If it dissipates heat, then your drag system will experience less fade and more usable drag if the fight is long. Your car brakes lose braking power with heat since friction is reduced due to heat buildup. The pressure applied to this washer will be greater since it is is concentrated on a smaller area (i.e. more psi). Dissipating heat would come from the fact that you are using drag grease on the under main gear washer and that allows the bridge plate and the rest of the reel to be used as a heat sink since the grease will transfer thermal buildup from the drag system to the frame via the bridge plate and gear sleeve.

The washer, when larger than the AR ratchet, will only be as effective as the smallest diameter of the area applying force. In a Penn/Newell, it is the AR ratchet. IF one side is being ground up by the overlapping of the washer, that side is pretty much ineffective. The other side, however, is still applying force. You cannot view this washer as doing nothing.

The first washer that goes into the main gear is, a lot of times, ineffective for one side since it is usually fused to the main gear and needs to be pried out. Just an observation when salt is introduced there.

If fishing with higher drag settings, I would recommend going to a lever drag. A star drag design has antiquated limitations that lever drags have addressed. If you must use your Star drag for drags over 15lbs., then you will be experiencing these issues. It is not because of inadequate materials. It is because of the limitations of the star drag design. Any material used there at those drag settings will cause issues of one form or another. I wouldn't think of using a star drag for line classes over 40lb. Over 40lbs and I'd rather have a low gear setting. I could do it with 50, but why? I understand though, Newell and some Penn guys are always telling, "From my cold, dead hands!"

[jonathan.han]

Just for clarification, I did not write the article I linked to.  That was written by Aaron (Reel Speed)

No problem. When we are speaking at theory level and when trying to use stars for heavy drags, it'll never stop since we are all speaking theoretically. To solve the problem, mankind invented lever drags.

[Bunnlevel Sharker]

I filed out the inside of a 4/0 washer(ht-100) and ut it under my 9/0 main gear, got a significant increase in drag. Like 33lbs versus 23. If i lock it all the way down, to the point of no return, i bottom out my 50lb drag scale. not gonna dothat on a fish without serious upgrades

[George4741]

I filed out the inside of a 4/0 washer(ht-100) and ut it under my 9/0 main gear,

Grayson, why did you use that washer instead if a 6-114 or 6-115?  BTW your modified 4/0 washer definately works, as you are getting some nice drag numbers.

[Bunnlevel Sharker]

A friend told me it would work and I had extra ones laying around

[George4741]

A friend told me it would work and I had extra ones laying around

That is good enough for me.

[Killerbug]

I notice that leading makes of conventional reels are still putting fibre or graphite washers between the main gear and AR ratchet.
Surely the engineers of these reels do this for good reason, so why some members recomending a carbontex or HT100 washer under the main gear?
Basto

I think some members here do it, probably because other members do  .  I have studied this intensively, and also asked ABU why they still use a high friction material under the main gear on the Revos .  The reason for that is pretty simple, you want the main drag washers inside the main gear to do the work, not the the one under the main gear.  By replacing this with a CF washer,  the effect is pretty much the same, so if it makes you feel better, do it..

All gears settles with use, so if you change the washer under the main gear, be 100% sure, it has the same thickness as the one replaced. If not, change the main gear with it.  This is to avoid, that you loose any smoothness, related to the gearing.

I use CF under the main gear, but that is because it is much more durable than other materials.

[Tightlines667]

I must admit I have been reluctant to replace the under gear washer w/CF on the larger reels that I service. 

It's true this washer increases the drag's overall smoothness and seems to typically level out the drag curve spikes (both static moreso, and dynamic friction), similar to greasing the drag washers or converting to a tighter/smoother weave drag washer CF material.  It also seems likely that it would increase (modestly) overall drag range, and smoothness due to spreading out the load more, and allowing the drag to be fished at a lower percentage of max available.  CF is also know as a durable material so these all seem like good reasons to use the CF under the main gear.   

I've also noticed the CF washer seems more compressable, and is exposed (to carying degrees based on its outter diameter) to the dog and rachet.  I guess it seems like it could interfer under heavier loads, and that a compressable washer here might also interfere with smoothness at higher drag settings.  I guess I'm thinking that for instance if under high load some CF washers inevitably stick to their metal counterparts within the main gear this is normal, and there are others to maintain smoothness, but if the under gear washer starts hesitating or sticking under load it is counter effective to the desired effect of overall drag smoothness putting it there was meant to accomplish?  Also, in it's open location (coated w/Cal's) it is none the less likely to be exposed to standard grease which could accelerate degradation.  I guess I'm trusting that the reel many factors have thought this one through to some extent too, I mean there has to be some reason (other then cost) they tend to chose the same material for their under gear washers.

I've been wondering if Teflon washers (as are commonly utilized in many of the large/high drag lever drag models..I.E under cam) might work very well under the main gear on these larger reels?  I mean they are silky smooth, largely uncompressable, and impervious to salt and seemingly largely immune to significant changes in their performance despite corrosion in adjacent parts.  Seems like they would achieve the result of keeping the drag smoother under load, without the other potential pitfalls of CF.  Maybe I'm missing something here.  In either case I don't like to experiment with my customer's reels.  Especially if they are being heavily used to catch expensive fish, or please high paying clients.


Am I missing something or just thinking crazy here? 

John

[Shark Hunter]

Good thinking John. I have access to some Teflon and a cutting tool they use at work for making gaskets for steam lines. I will be cutting some for my 12 and 14/0's.

[BMITCH]

Ahhhh, the old under the main gear washer debate. I'm still on the fence as to which one to use. I have concerns about the cf compressing and coming into "play" with the teeth of the sleeve. In another thread a member here(Brocshro) had this washer chewed up when he used a cf under the main gear on his "tank".he was going to use a different one next( I believe the stock penn) and see what came of it. This washer is there for a reason. I don't think it's just a sacrificial spacer. My thought is that the top or side that comes in contact with the main gear is actually the friction side and the lower or side that is exposed to the sleeve teeth is more or less stationary. Then the first washer inside the main gear is theoretically fused so only one side is applying friction. This would in theory give you two working drag surfaces. So this still raises a question in my mind...doesn't this under gear washer add to the total drag force? It must or why would we use a drag type material in this position. These questions are well above my pay scale so for the time being I'm going to go with a cf washer which has been cut back so as to not extend way over the teeth of the sleeve. If for no other reason but for esthetics and ease of clean up on future service. If other members here have a better material other than the stock penn washer or cf I would be eager to hear about it.
Bob