Serviced 6 Internationals this week...a few observations

[Tightlines667]

I just finished complete service on 6 heavily used Penn Internationals this past week and thought I'd share a few observations....

Reels serviced:

-'04&'05 130STWs off a popular deep sea charter vessel that fishes them over 200-250 days/year
-'92&'97 80STWs
-1969 &'85 50 from a hard fishing (100-150 days/year) sportsfishing vessel
-Total time invested= 35-50hrs work
-Total parts cost (retail)= $760

-The '92 80had a drag lever that was locked up, upon disassembly it was found that the entire cam assembly was heavily corroded, and it had a modified cam with a steep ramp up, and flat spot 'on top' (I assume to provide quick transition to max drag from strike.  The thick Bellevilles were (()) and the reel had apparently been put away 'wet', and stored under max compression resulting in complete and total flattening of the spring washers.  All 6 bearings were shot, and the high speed main gear was very heavily worn.  The upgraded drag discs were still in excellent condition.  I replaced the high speed drive gear, cam (stock) and pins, and changed Bellevilles to 2-thick, 2-thin ()() stock config.  I shimmed the drive gear, pinion, and left drag plate too.
O..new clicker spring, pawl, and plate too.

-The '97 130 just needed a pinion, right spool, and 2-drive shaft bearings, and went back to stick ()() Belleville config(removed shims to maintain spacing. New clicker pawl, spring, plate.  High speed main gear was worn and a little rough but I deburred it and left it for another year's use.

-1969 50 needed all new bearings, new duradrag plate (no other parts needed for upgraded drag), since the customer was fishing 130lb holocore w/80lb topshot, I went with 2 thick and 3 thin Bellevilles ((((), and shimmed appropriately.  The clicker gave me a little trouble since it was the first gen design, it could not be upgraded w/o changing the Sideplate(no longer avail either),(or drilling it out), and clicker pawl was unique, so ended up drilling out the holes in the clicker ratchet/plate, shimming it off of the spool 0.3mm, and changing the screws (0.5mm longer).  No spool shimming was needed (after I got the correct Belleville combo, and the gear roughness was acceptable...needed a new set of stand screws and clamp too.

-1985 50 just needed pinion, and left plate bearings, a new clicker pawl, spring, and ratchet, and a through cleaning.  I modified Bellevilles to match his other 50 for use with braid.  

Havn't quite finished the 130s yet, I'll update when finished.

Just finished up w/ the 130s

-'04 130ST needed new pinion, both spool, and both drive shaft bearings, and I replaced the 2 stock thick Bellevilles (they lost some of their springiness).  The drag was surgy at high settings before service.  The outter drag disc had a small scratch, and a hardly noticable corresponding one on the drag plate.  I worked the weave on the CF drags up w/a clean rag, and polished up the drag plate w/some compound, and converted to wet w/Cal's.  I packed all bearings using Alan's bearing packer w/Penn grease, and lightly lubed everything in the drag chamber w/Cal's (also lubed the preset friction washer w/Cal's)..Penn's everywhere else, and corrosion X on indicator buttons, and handle.  I was able to get the stand off and greased this and screws as well.  All told pretty str8 forward service... 4hrs, $116 in parts, no shimming needed, good performance after servicing (though freespool suffered a bit from the grease)

-'05 130ST... This one was in pretty rough shape and required a new click pawl, spring, ratchet, 5 new bearings, new thick bellevilles, drag reconditioning, and new drag heat shield screws.  The bridge gave me some trouble removing and had to be pressed out, and the heat shield screws had to be destroyed to remove (though no retap was necessary).  The drag was converted to wet.  All bearing shields were left in place and packed w/Penn's grease.  The one bearing that survived was a china made bearing w/plastic race...it was put in the left plate position.  5.5hrs time, $162 in parts.  Performance was good after servicing (shimmed under preset adjust, and 1 on left plate bearing.  High speed gear was showing signs of wear but appeared normal and although not smooth, it wasn't rough or grinding either. 

Hope this was useful to someone?

John

[Shark Hunter]

Good Work John! You are quite the repairman. I'll be honest with you. I don't have any Internationals mainly because I am intimidated by the complicated design.

[Tightlines667]

Daron,
Honestly the older international IIs aren't that bad.  As far as lever drag reels go, in my opinion, they are actually one of the simplest, most rugged designs (with the exception of the Tritons ruggedness), and they typically have a little 'looser' tolerances, and fewer parts.  I think this makes them a bit easier to service, and true workhorses since they will still work even when parts are worn/corroded/or not quite perfect.  They are not watertight, and are prone to corrosion issues (ESP where dissimilar metals are in contact with one another), and they are a bit heavy, loud, and lack the smoothness and precision if some of the more modern design.  Many of my charter fishing friends prefer the international IIs (and Tritons) to the modern reels because maintainance and repair time and costs can grow quickly when the reels are fished hard (and often abused), often times by inexperienced anglers.  Sometimes simpler can be better.  The only thing that can take some tinkering with is learning how to adjust the Bellevilles, and shim appropriately...but I think with the tutorials in this forum, anyone with a bit of mechanical know how and a little patience, should be able to service any of the Penn International IIs.  Your larger senators adhere to the 'more is less' principle too, and they are relatively  lightweight, have great line capacity, and are really cost effective as well.  As I said, I wouldn't be afraid to crack open an international if one happens past.

[handi2]

Yes they are very simple and easy to work on IF they are in good shape. I usually spend 1 1/2 to 2 hours on each one.

The ones you have are a different story..!!!

[Tightlines667]

I should have clarified on the time allowance thing...
..2 of these reels were relatively easy to service and took less then 2.5hrs each.  2 took way longer, and the other 2 appear to fall somewhere in between.  I usually average 5hrs/reel for complete disassembly, cleaning, deburring, pick up parts, grease, reassemble, and tune/adjust. 

[Shark Hunter]

What about the VSX. if you were going to fish one of these gold monsters and do the maintenance yourself. Would you stick with an older International or the newer ones. In particular the 130 VSX.

[Tightlines667]

I am a bit ashamed to admit that I have yet to service one personally.  From what I can glean these reels have much tighter tolerances overall, and are smoother outta the box, they seem a bit more tedious to service and the 2 speed mechanism is definately tough...see the tutorial on it.  The other service guys I've talked to here on Oahu complain about them alot (as repairmen in general are apt to do).  They see alot of frozen cams, blown bearings and drive gear assemblies that need shimming.  My overall impression is that they are smooth, capable of higher performance (then older internationals), but need a more rigorous service scheduel, and performance will suffer quicker due to wear/corrosion issues.  As I said, I don't have any personal experience but many of the guys here that fish there reels hard are moving away from them, and even the Tiagra's in favor of their old tried and true international IIs.

[Shark Hunter]

Good to know John. Thank You.

[sundaytrucka]

Very cool man. I heard those 130's can be a little tedious to work on, a lot of guys will not touch them, but if you can get it apart, then you can get it back together (with your experience).

I am planning on getting an International 12LT II in the future and like seeing posts like this. All I would see as a kid growing up, were gold Penn's in the videos and magazines of LR tuna fisherman...One real I have always wanted.

[josa1]

Thanks for sharing.  I really like those reels, gets me excited just to see them totally dismantled like that.  You definitely did a great job!

Re time:  I don't think that I've ever done an International without taking at least three hours but have to admit that I don't have to do it for a living.  I just enjoy working on them and trying to make them as good as new.  I've never worked on a 130, just up to the 80.  I especially enjoy tackling one that doesn't work at all.

Great post!

josa1

[johndtuttle]

Don't stress working on the more complex lever drags or even the two speed mechanism. You'll find that it breaks down into separate areas and that once you understand how they tick they are no more complicated than anything else. Each mechanism is very simple mechanically. You just have more mechanisms  .

It becomes like a case of working on 2 or 3 Senators at a time versus one lever drag. You might have more bits on the international individually, but really, once you have grasped how things work and what they have to do then things simply "make sense" how they go together and you gain confidence.

[Marlinmate]

Tightlines...what are you using for shims?  and where are you shimming?

[Tightlines667]

I forgot to mention a couple of relatively common pitfalls I've ran into when servicing older International IIs, especially reels that have not been properly maintained/regularily serviced.  

In my experience , You need to be a bit careful in assessing the overall condition of the reel when you first crack it in order to determine if a restoration/service is financially feasable (I got burned once), as parts cost on these reels can quickly escalate.  Typically if more then 1 (certainly more then 2) of the expensive type parts (bridge, frame, side plates, pinion, main gear(s), complete handle assembly, ect) need replacing, your other more typical parts costs might well drive the cost of restoration beyond what could be considered 'reasonable' (50-70% of reel value (actual or resale?) or maybe even 100%, if sentimental value exists?  I would recommend paying close attention to these parts in particular to determine if their condition is likely to negatively impact performance or is unacceptable.  Also, is the customer concerned with aesthitics/appearance as well or just function?  Always need to do a little cost/benefits analysis here.  You don't want to get in too deep and end up in a lose-lose situation.

Some commonplace problem areas on these reels include:

1)Heavily corroded stand and/or rod clamp screws...if its bad leave em be!  Removing badly corroded reel clamp screws may mean there isn't enough material left to rethread or even for a helicoil insert to work...this would mean a whole new frame.  If its minor by all means pull clean/treat corrosion, and grease to prevent future problems.  If its intermediate, judgement is needed may require retaping w/a larger dia bolt (and drilling out hardened reel foot to accommodate, or simple retap, or retap and use of a bonding agent.  Just remember the frame really isn't that thick here, and the bolts have few threads.

2)Frozen screws (side plate, bridge, quadrant, clicker ratchet, drag plate, cooling shield).  Use methods outlined elsewhere in the forum to remove frozen screw(s)...including soaking in ATF:acetone, tightening then losening w/correct sized driver, heat/cold, if need be you can grind off or drill out the screw head to remove part (I.e. sideplate), and get more screw to work with, or gain access to the inside of screw hope to try pushing out with another screw if there are enough threads.  As a last case resort, drill it out very carefully with a clamped part and drill press (be aware you are drilling out a very hard metal from a soft one), retap, can use bonding agent if really necessary or helicoil insert, or go to larger diameter, and or fewer threads or greater pitch screw.  Again a judgement call is often needed.  Destroying a frame to remove the left side plate is usually not warranted if you can gain access to the internals from the right side.  

3)Heavily corroded/stuck/stuborn bridge...if it functions fine and removing it will cause more harm then good..leave it be.  If you need to remove it (it needs replacing, or you need access to inner drive shaft bearing first try soaking it in ATF/Acetone, heating under tap water or carefully with a torch can help.  Check the condition of the sideplate where it marries to the cam housing (ESP the lip), if it is not heavily corroded, you can remove the retaining screw, and use a hardened socket that is the same diameter as the housing to push this through the bridge (from the outside in) ideally with a press, careful tapping with a rubber mallet/hammer.  Do not remove the cam housing if damage to the sideplate might result since this needs to be a good tight fit that is perfectly square upon reassembly, and again side plates and bridges are pricy.  Make sure all bridge screws have been removed (if you need to drill em out go from inside the side plate out).  Take your time here cause mistakes are costly.

4)Heavily corroded/frozen cam assembly...soak, heat/cool, tap to remove, debur clean up/buff, replace heavily marred corroded parts (if the cam following pins are heavily notched/worn just replace em, be careful not to damage the cam housing since it comes integral with the side plate=expensive)...these parts are extremely strong and resillant so they can usually be salvaged, can housings can usually be cleaned up polished to work like new..beware if notches in the channels or heavy marring though, and avoid any temptation to grind the inside since even if done perfectly you will create unacceptable slop.  

5)for models that have a counterclockwise threaded cooling shield it is often stuck...use ATF/Acetone, the proper wrench, heating (tap water, or careful torch to spool w/o line), and persuasive taping to break it free.  An oil filter wrench and rubber inner tube on the shield, and with the spool in a rubber lined wood vice can provide alot of torque.  As an absolute last resort it can be cut/ground off resulting in replacement of it any any other damages parts

Note:  Always make sure parts are available before you start working on something that may get damaged or need replacing.  In the case of gen I Internationals limited parts availablity make it helpful to have 'parts reels' available...sometimes you can 'take 2 bad and make a good'.  


6)Spool bearings have tighter tollerances in their pockets and may get stuck....ATF/acetone soak, heat spool w/warm water, rap the spool squarely on a flat surface, use a bearing puller if available, once one is out the pinion gear works nicely to push the other one out (make sure it's square, and realize pressure on the inner race only could damage the bearing.  You can also cut/grind the bearing out if absolutely necessary (see other tutorials).

7)Clicker assemblies are often frozen to the sideplates..You can usually solve your clicker problem by servicing the assembly and or ratchet itself rather then risk damage to or replacing the sideplate.  Grease the inside of pawl liberally when servicing since this is a common area of water/salt intrusion.  If it needs a new pawl/spring you and the click button is hopelessly frozen, you can drill it out, and replace the guts.  Make sure replacement parts are avail for the given dia clicker sleeve first though.  The older gen 1 and 2 clicker assemblies can be problematic (gen 2 can usually be upgraded) shimming or replacing the spring with a slightly larger one can help here too.

Also, before final reassembly on these I find it useful to:
-Check the spool and spool shaft for trueness, make sure they aren't warped or bent.  
-Test cam preset adjust, lever position, and function, and test fit pinion bearing to spool shaft.  
-I also like to put the pinion in place by itself and test gears, and shifting mech, by reeling in high then low speed...check for grinding, bumping, slipping or hesitation and note when it occurs (I.e. once per low drive gear rotation, only in low gear ect...
-Also check for lateral and torsional movement in drive shaft/gear assembly (can replace shaft, bushing, bearings, or shim as needed to correct.  
-Check gear alignment at min/max preset and lever travel.  
-Also, I have learned that in addition to noting the belleville thicknesses and configuration, it is often helpful to measure the initisl thickness of the belleville stack (along with shims/thrust washers if present) during dissasembly. Knowing 'stock Belleville stack thickness for your given reel is useful here too.  This gives you a target when/if replacing/reconfig Bellevilles, in general when shimming proceed slowly and cautiously cause too much will damage the reel.  Left spool shimming can help maintain free spool if the stack was decreased in size, and must be done when stack thickness increases in order to prevent the pinion/spool shaft from contacting the left side plate under max settings (most important).  Typically I try to avoid shimming under the pinion (above pinion bearing), but you if it is needed..make sure to add same thickness to left drag plate to give the shaft room (may have to decrease Belleville stack thickness as well.  Also, be aware that shimming the left drag plate will often cause it to contact the free floating drag disc quicker, the spacing and free floating nature, along with the drag spring, should still cause both discs to engage simultaneously w/modest shimming here.  However if the outter engages prematurely, may need to remove outter shim or add one under the inner drag plate as well.  I try to keep total shimming to less then 1mm (or ~3 0.3mm shims max).  Experiment and test.  The good thing is these reels have a but if room to play with here.  You can actually do a surprising amount of preliminary-type 'blue printing' here just by varying Belleville config, thickness, and corresponding shimming.  You can go for a more springy/linear type curve with better low end performance, or a steep ramp up to higher drag settings.  Realize: "You can't get something for nothing" here.  Ideally you can get a preset that works in its sweet spot, with good gear alignment throughout the typical drag range, and good freespool at the max and strike settings your after.  Remember setting the reel up to fish outside its original design may come at a cost with excessive laterial/torsional loads, accelerated parts wear, heat gen, or others. I'm still learning how to properly shim/adjust these so take my advice on this matter with a grain if salt.  

If these reels are properly and regularily serviced they can function as the workhorses they were intended to be for decades (I've seen some still kicking hard after nearly 40 years of presumed heavy use).  

Hope I didn't overly complicate the matter here..after all these reels strong point is their simplicity and ruggedness.  

Hope you found my musings useful too.

[gstours]

Hi John. you have said the truth,  we all should take note......Its from your experience that we can  and are learning to be more aware.  thanks for sharing your insights with us.  someday we will recall your words.   if we,r lucky......gst.

[Tightlines667]

GS,
You know the funny thing is..the other day I was stuck on a shimming issue and couldn't quite figure out what to do and I ended up looking to the forum and actually had to read one of my own posts and take my own advice to get it right...funny how that works